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You Keyboard players are so lucky


ManInTheBox

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really you are, with all the cool stuff that comes out for you guys. These workstations have got to be the coolest. You can do a full production from your Keyboard.

I play guitar/bass, but I still have to get a drum machine, and a recorder to work out a tune.

I've honestly tried(am still trying) to cross over, but mentally, I just can't understand the Keyboard. I mean do you really need 36 to 88 keys?? Six strings is my limit, I'm glad the 7 string Geetars are starting to fade.

Anyway, just so you'll know, I'll be quitely admiring you guys(aka Lurking)

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Read THIS . It talks about gear obsession.

 

CJ, it ain't about the gear. Amazing music has been created for centuries prior to the advent of the workstation.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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CJ, I've been trying to play guitar for 30 years. I'm third-rate at it. My brain just doesn't work like that.

 

I'm real linear - keys are laid out that way. And I almost flunked matrix algebra in college - and guitars are laid out THAT way.

 

My hat's off to you guitarists and the way you all do the things you do. I'm happy enough playing keys, it's not an envy thing. More like...

 

...vive la difference.

 

;)

 

Daf

I played in an 8 piece horn band. We would often get bored. So...three words:

"Tower of Polka." - Calumet

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I always envied BASS players. They spent the least amount of money on equipment in every band I was ever in. :) You're welcome to become a KB player so you can be in debt up to your ass like the rest of us. OR you drive a 15 year old car because you can't afford a new one, you spent all your money on GEAR. If I had half the money I spent on gear now, I'd have a nice IRA to fall back on. But then look at all the fun I would have missed! The grass is always greener my friend.

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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Free advice from a keyboardist:

By all meand study the keyboard in order to expand your music knowledge and understanding - but if you're looking into being a keyboard pro, I would advice against it, for two main reasons:

 

1) Keyboardists are slave to the technology, forced to keep current with every new thing, spending tons of money into new equipement, and continuously learning new operating systems. And that's not counting instrumental technique, harmony, playing lots of notes simultaneously *and* trying to change programs at the same time... you get the picture.

 

2) On top of that, a good pro bassist will always have work, because good bass players are the most rare item in the music business. And most of times, he will be paid the same than the keyboard player, without having to carry and setup all that gear... *Or* going thru the contorsions described on point 1. :)

 

Your choice! :D;):P

 

Joking... but not too much. :cool:

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Originally posted by marino:

 

2) On top of that, a good pro bassist will always have work, because good bass players are the most rare item in the music business. And most of times, he will be paid the same than the keyboard player, without having to carry and setup all that gear... *Or* going thru the contorsions described on point 1. :) :

I always feel drummers are harder to come by. Moreover, I find that certain bass players go through a set of strings every 10 days or so... esp the 6 string chord/harmonics/slap type of players... in the end I think it depends on the player, I rarely experience GAS, I usually buy everything s/h anyway... though I would like a Promega 3 I find it too expensive so I'll pick one up if they get cheaper or on the off chance one comes up on ebay/loot or whatever.. :)
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Hey guys, thanks for all the replies.

 

I know there are some guys who can play drums, guitar, bass, and keys. Remy Shand, Prince, Lenny Kravitz, and one day, I hope I can.

 

I've got an ESP 16+, an XV5050, Kontakt, FM7, B4, and all the free Cakewalk VSTs. I'm spending the money already........thank God for VSTs/DXis.

 

I've got a bunch of problems with learning to play keys.

First: When learning guitar, I learned how to put my fingers. I learned patterns, and it's mostly moving these patterns around the neck.

 

Second: When I ask piano players for tips, they say chord voicings are interpretation.

 

Third: I'm not cordinated enough to do two totally seperate things with both hands (it's really five different things with two different hands for a total of ten different things.)

 

Forth: ????

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Originally posted by C J:

I've got a bunch of problems with learning to play keys.

First: When learning guitar, I learned how to put my fingers. I learned patterns, and it's mostly moving these patterns around the neck.

Sure there´s patterns on keyboards too, it´s just that most "patterns" have different fingerings depending on the mode and the key. And there are no shortcuts!

 

Originally posted by C J:

Second: When I ask piano players for tips, they say chord voicings are interpretation.

In a way, chord voicings are interpretations; you get the info - for instance Cmaj9 - and then you "interpret" it, adapt it to the situation. A classical jazz voicing in a trio setting a la McCoy Tyner, Bill Evans or Chick Corea could be (lh) E A (rh) D G B, while in a pop context you might want to voice the chord in thirds instead; (lh) C G (rh) E G B or (lh) C (rh) G B C E. If I play organ in a pop/rock context and the lead sheet says Cmaj7, I´ll probably play (rh) E B while fiddling with the drawbars with my left hand. In a way, you can say that basic piano playing is like taking guitar playing to the next level, that it´s harder to master the basics. All of that evens out after a while, advanced harmony and extended chords for instance can be a lot easier on a piano. Quite simplified, a C7alt can be played like a C triad and a superimposed Gb/F#6, already at 7 notes..! The good thing is that once you´ve learned the basic triads in all their inversions, getting further is simply about combining and altering these.

 

Originally posted by C J:

Third: I'm not cordinated enough to do two totally seperate things with both hands (it's really five different things with two different hands for a total of ten different things.)

Independence is one of the hardest things. Practising scales works for me, as does focusing on one part by simplifying the other. Start by taking little steps and soon you´ll master more than you thought you could.

 

Originally posted by C J:

Forth: ????

Don´t worry, there´ll be a fourth somewhere down the line! :D

 

If it helps, the best keyboard player I´ve ever heard started out a guitar player, switched when he was 25 or so and is at 35 a BAD player! :eek::thu:

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There are a number of piano method books that can be practiced and played that will help you develop "independence". Example: Bella Bartok piano solo series. Learn the first 3 or 4 books (not an easy task) and you can play the majority of classical piano pieces written. It depends on how much time and practice you want to devote to it and what you want to achieve. I'm a firm believer in piano lessons, with the right teacher. You don't have to take lessons for years upon years, but learning the rudiments from a professional teacher is still the best route to go.

 

There are a number of successful self taught players in the world, but not many of us are that talented. But training, practice, and determination can make the "average" person a better player and grow as a musician. Music is the most personally rewarding thing I ever experienced.

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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  • 2 months later...
Originally posted by MikeT156:

I always envied BASS players. They spent the least amount of money on equipment in every band I was ever in. :)

Mike T.

Hmmmm.....not the bassists I know (including myself.)

 

My main axe, Musicman Stingray 5 cost (roughtly) $1500 USD new, not that much less than my new Motif ES 6 (well...$500 but who is counting..)

 

My bass cabinet is a David Eden 410xst, new cost of $1000, a preamp and power amp for any good sized-venue (and with any sound quality and headroom) cost another $700-$1000..

 

Throw in some pedals, and another bass (like a fretless, another $1000 easy) and we are talking the same money as a keyboardist rig.

 

(Sorry--the bassist in me just had to reply.. :) )

Steve Force,

Durham, North Carolina

--------

My Professional Websites

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I give props to the 6strings. i haven't tryed enough but i can't play a guitar. piano is just natural to me...all the octaves are the same lol. now there are quite differnet tech things like using both hands to play...and then you have to know how to use the gear... guitar it's all over the place to with the frets and notes in differnt places and it freak'n hurts your fingers building caluses. i don't need that thanks.
Step out of the box and grow!
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Originally posted by C J:

MIkeT156,

 

thanks for looking out.

 

Any of you guys know of any good intermediate Jazz/Funk "method books" ?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0793598702/qid=1110183688/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-9023982-9404656

 

Quite good for what it is: basic-intermediate level, includes chord voicings, some extended chords w. voicings (b9, 13(#11) etc.), a song-length clav part that is definitely groovin, rhythm section stuff, lead licks, discussion of various vintage keyboards. Emphasis on the slicker R&B end of the funk, but it's all good. Not for advanced players, and no discussion of chords voiced using fourths, but the examples include some anyway. For where you're at definitely worth getting.

Keys: Hammond SK2, Hammond SK1, Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Waldorf STVC

Amplification: Line6 L3T, Yamaha DBR-10, Presonus Air 10, Leslie 122V

 

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Originally posted by C J:

I play guitar/bass, but

Us keyboarders play keyboard, but we think we can play bass, guitar, drums, strings and so on as well with the keyboard though we actually can't ;)

 

Some of us even can't play keyboards, we only have one and always dream about playing a real instrument. So don't be depressed if you actually CAN play bass :)

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There is a down side to being a keyboard player. We have to always consider our equipment when buying a car. I'm in the market now for a new car and I'm already limited in my choices.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Thank goodness for minivans! ;) Then again, I have a rather small rig for a keyboard player.

 

Sure, bass gear isn't cheap. But if you compare the cost of a whole setup between members of the typical band you'll find the kb player spends considerably more. A good bass guitar will last virtually forever, with occasional fret jobs. But most keyboards have to be replaced every 5 years or so. And the ones that don't -- vintage keys like Hammond & Rhodes -- cost a lot in hassle and chiropractor bills!

 

On the other hand, keyboardists have it easy in one way compared to bass players. In many songs, if we drop out for a moment to sneeze or whatever, nobody notices. We can sit in with a band on songs we don't know, lay back, and fill in when it's obvious what to do. Try doing that on bass!

 

And yes, with today's home studio tools, it sure does help to have keyboard skills. But I agree that any committed musician can pick it up. Playing keyboards is a LOT easier than, say, playing bass and singing at the same time. THAT takes serious talent/practice/cohones/whatever.

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Originally posted by Dave Horne:

There is a down side to being a keyboard player. We have to always consider our equipment when buying a car. I'm in the market now for a new car and I'm already limited in my choices.

This is so true.. When I move over there, I'll need an SUV, and thats just for my kids!!

 

I'm definately going to need an instrument-only car!!

 

When I used to gig, or rehearse, it was a nightmare. Take the baby seat out, flatten the seats, *strain* to pick up the A90 and shove it in, WITHOUT scratching etc... Then the 01/W on top of that, and THEN try to find somewhere for the stand to go without tearing the car seats. Of course, there's the bag of cables and pedals to go somewhere too.

 

It *could* be easier ...couldn't it?

 

(please DO NOT tell me to become a guitarist - I don't do guitar!!)

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This is slightly off topic but relates to cars carrying equipment. When I first moved over here I fell in love with the small business trucks they have. For some reason, VW, Ford, Peugeot and a few others do not export these vehicles to the US as far as I know.

 

I just ordered a new VW Caddy. Click on the word CADDY when you open this site ... VW Holland

 

I personally liked the older Caddy's better than the newer ones. The shape of the older ones was nicer though less aerodynamic. The newer ones come with a sliding door on the side as an extra entry to the rear section. They only seat two people and the rear section is separated from the front section. I ordered my loaded but it really wasn't all that expensive (as long as we keep the US$ conversion out of the picture.)

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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http://www.winnebagoind.com/html/products/recVehicles/images_nav/recIndex/riMainTb.jpg

 

Here in the US they sell modified VW vans as motorhomes under the Winnebago Rialta name. Actually I own a motorhome not much different from the one in this picture (not a VW though), and it not only hauls gear easily but makes an ideal musician's dressing room/office/break room and sleepover. It was either that or a minivan and I got a great deal on the motorhome.

 

Honestly, I usually just use my little VW Cabrio convertible for hauling my keyboard gear to local gigs. It went along with my gear reduction project a couple of years back. My Yamaha 9000 Pro keyboard in it's soft case fits behind the driver's seat perfectly and my Motion Sound amps either go in the trunk or in the back seat. My wife has a Honda CRV mini-SUV I can use for hauling gear if I need to, but I usually don't.

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I found a photo from a used car site for an older VW Caddy. If they would have had these models in the US when I lived there I would have bought one. What's interesting, Ford over here makes something similar to the Caddy and as far as I know, they do not export them to the US.

 

There's big deal over here now with the gov't changing the tax laws on business car\trucks. There is also a 40% ... that's right, 40% tax that will be introduced ... a luxury tax on cars or on certain option on cars. Perhaps the Dutch guys can add more.

 

http://members.home.nl/davehorne/photos/caddy.jpg

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Quote by Forceman:

--------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by MikeT156:

 

I always envied BASS players. They spent the least amount of money on equipment in every band I was ever in.

Mike T.

--------------------------------------------------

 

Hmmmm.....not the bassists I know (including myself.)

 

My main axe, Musicman Stingray 5 cost (roughtly) $1500 USD new, not that much less than my new Motif ES 6 (well...$500 but who is counting..)

 

My bass cabinet is a David Eden 410xst, new cost of $1000, a preamp and power amp for any good sized-venue (and with any sound quality and headroom) cost another $700-$1000..

 

Throw in some pedals, and another bass (like a fretless, another $1000 easy) and we are talking the same money as a keyboardist rig.

 

(Sorry--the bassist in me just had to reply.. )

==============================================

 

Hmmn, maybe I should have had you in some of the groups I was in. Honestly, most of the bass players I worked with had ONE Fender bass, ususally one amp, although often it was enough. Kept their gear forever. I don't know how many changes are really necessary for a bass play, I know they've come out with bass guitars with additional strings since the last time I played in a band. As a KB player, I've spent a fortune on updating equipment when I was actively playing. When I went solo, I needed a complete self contained system, so I had to get a PA, effects, monitors, the works. Add about 4 or 5 top of the line KB's and before you know it, you have 25 to 30 grand on the stage. That was back in the days when an Oberheim cost 4 grand, a Prophet 5 over 3 grand, Electric grand 2500 bucks, Rhodes Suitcase Piano 1200 bucks, Taurus pedals 7 or 800, Oberheim DMX or Linn Drum over 2k, then PA gear, and a truck to haul everything in.

 

Fortunately, KB gear is cheaper and better these days. But I've easy spent over 50k on gear since I started playing, maybe more. Maybe that's why I don't have any money now. :)

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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