panic attack

[wmp]

I'm real old school. Real acoustic grand, B3, rhodes, clav, and whurli are my staples. I'm a very lame, but tasteful player. I am cursed with a discriminating ear and I know what I like. I have to like what I play on or it's just not fun. I'm having a hard time with that. I hope somebody can read this drivel, and understand what I like enough to point me at available gear that does it.

 

I love the sound of my PC88 for straigt up piano, rhodes and whurli. But the Fatar action had to be replaced about 5 or 6 times in less than 3 years of moderate gigging. I've played other folk's stuff here and there, and I just spent a tiring week looking at all the other digital piano and workstation offerings I could find. To my ear, none are as good as my PC88 for straight up piano, rhodes and whurli. Yes, they sound good and have a lot of great sounds, but I prefer the kurzweil pianos. The user interface familiarity issue looms large, as I need to have this behind me and be playing by Tuesday.

 

Today I tried the PC2. My favorite PC88 sounds aren't there, but all the new sounds suit me just fine. The organs are a huge leap; decent leslie, chorus, drawbars, sorta.

 

Just as I feared, the sounds are better than ever, and the manufacturing is worse than ever. The one I tried today already had velocity problems on a few keys. Every used Kurzweil I've tried has action problems.

 

Before they disintegrated, I enjoyed playing on all those fatars. It's the only weighted digital I've owned. I've never busted up anything like this before. I am too excitable to play on a whuli all night long without swapping out dead reeds every so often. A hot latin player would kill one of those in a set.

 

If I buy a PC2X, I know I've got an axe with all the sounds in one box, that fits my flight case and airline weight specs (100 lbs.), that I can drive on a gig tomorrow without going to manual hell for a day or even thinking much. I also know that soon come down the road, I'll be at a gig in the middle of nowhere with no axe.

 

In general, I see no pro gear. I hear pro sounds coming from consumer stuff with wall warts. I've looked into the PC2R and a controller, but all of them I've seen so far have the sliders on the WRONG SIDE for drawbars. Fatar actions are everywhere. I'm concerned about any of this stuff being roadworthy.

 

I'm open to almost any idea that gets me on the road. I'll fix the PC88 and get a Korg, Hammond or Roland organ. A PC2X with extra actions, perhaps. But this all leads to my Kurzweil parts and service rant. Can't find anybody who knows what an actions is, much less a price and delivery date. I love 'em. I hate 'em. I love to hate 'em and I hate to love 'em. It isn't helpful to know about their current acquisition woes, but I'm afraid I do.

 

Please help. I'm old. I'm looking at the heaviest schedule of my life. I'm gigging again because I have to and I can. If I don't find an acceptable solution fast, yikes.

[ELP71]

Have you thought about a PC2R and a different controller?

[Song80s]

you need a good tasty midi controller with the PCR2

 

I don't know Kurz but I can understand you love the sounds.

 

The Rd 700 by Roland has a great piano feel . To send midi changes to modules is brain dead easy . Press midi txt, enter 87 for MSB, 0 for LSB and whatever PC or patch change # on the module. Then save it as a " Setup '. Just overwrite 1 of the exisiting 97 Setups.

 

I am an acoustic piano person, too ( own a Yamaha U3). I use to play a B3, Rhodes, Wulie, in late '70's. So I am heavy fingered but can play sensitive, too

 

To make your move by Tuesday kinda sux. Hopefully you will get informed opinions quickly.

 

But if nothing feels right to you, figure out a work around or interim solution until you have more time and can settle down on the ' right rig'

[wmp]

>> Have you thought about a PC2R and a different controller?

 

I sure have. I mentioned above that the ones I've seen so far all have the sliders on the wrong side for drawbars. Even if I find one with the sliders on the left, I'll have to spend time reading the manual and setting things up, and more time to get comfortable. Last week, days mattered. Today hours matter. Then there's the reliability issue. A recommendation from real good high energy player, like a hot latin guy or a Liszt / Rachmaninoff tribute dude, who's had no keyboard problems in a 100 gigs or so would be most convincing. It'd lower my blood preasure some too. Talking ad copy sales folk have the opposite effect.

 

I've spent a whole week looking at stuff that won't work. I can't afford to keep doing that.

 

A PC2X will become yet another good sounding, but inconvenient module. But it'll buy me some amount of time to research, shop and tinker. If it's just going to become a module anyway, I should get the PC2R and put today into looking hard at controllers. I'd be happy to use my old PC88 for, if I could find and buy actions.

 

#include

 

Thanks to all who offer help and advice.

[Byrdman]

Kurzweil rant is a system file rather than a user header?

 

I feel your pain. All the new controllers out there I have seen seem to be shit. I wonder if a vintage controller would be the way to g o on the grounds if its still solid its at least avoided infent mortality.

 

The RD700 action is not good. Its spongy, which slows you down. I am still using my QS8 which has never had any problems (well, it blew a fuse after about 8 years of daily use, including light gigging approx once a week for the latter hald of that period). But I know other people have had trouble with these units so perhaps I have been lucky. I did get one of the earliest units and the build quality may be higher than the later ones.

 

I have seen a Roland board arrive fresh from the store at festivals with broken keys and there are a number of threads on this board about broken keyboards on Rolands so I would avoid those.

 

That seems to leave either a S90 or other Yamaha, or a Korg as your choices. I know nothing of their reliability.

 

Another alternative if you don't mind the weight is the Kawai (I think it is) 9500. It has wooden keys and is the best feeling action out there - but watch for sharp edges where the plastic black keytops are joined to the wood underneath.

 

Do you know any keyboard service guys? An independent repair guy would be able to give you the best info on what is reliable and what breaks a lot.

[wmp]

Thanks for the warnings, Byrdman. I can't keep taking road trips to try stuff.

 

Long ago, I was full time tuner who rented mostly acoustic grands for shows. I've done a lot of my own service on most everything. Parts and shop manuals are usually all I need for this sort of stuff. Repair shops are certainly better than sales wetware for candor, but they're busy folks. They'd rather fix my instrument than give me advice on how to avoid service and buy parts for myself. Back to the Kurzweil parts rant.

 

The cruel irony here is that all of these fine manufacturers have flushed my resume at least once. Kurzweil twice. They've been equally receptive to my many suggestions over the years. I'd rather pay more, and get the same instrument in a box that takes a good decade to pulverize.

They clearly see things differently. I'm ranting again.

 

Under 100 pounds in a flight case is huge. I must be able to fly. If the controller has to be disposable, so be it. I need to know the cost of doing business. Which one and how much? Must be 88 note weighted with pitch bend and mod. Sliders (volume + 8 more?) on the left. Ample buttons and knobs. At least 3 switch and 2 continuous pedals.

 

I liked the kurzweil / fatar feel just fine. Don't want anything with a lighter feel. I can take some pain in the feel department for the sake of durability, but not on the sounds.

 

The PC2R and what controller is question dejour.

 

Thanks again.

[gangsu]

hello wmp,

No need to panic. Drop an email to PaulD@generalmusic.us or Davem@generalmusic.us and they'll tell you pronto where to find a promega 3 in Boston. You're a piano man. You'll love it. It might not fit in your flight case, it's deep, approx 7" at the back, about 55 pounds IIRC. You'll also need to buy specific CV pedals and so on, since it's real particular about it's associations. But it'll take you about 10 sec to figure out the layout. No hidden agendas, it's all up front.

 

It pisses me off the PM3 gets left off the list. every darn time. Somebody back me up here!

 

Sue. Pianist. Not quite up to snuff with Rach concertos, but close enough.

 

Originally posted by wmp:

Thanks for the warnings, Byrdman. I can't keep taking road trips to try stuff.

 

Long ago, I was full time tuner who rented mostly acoustic grands for shows. I've done a lot of my own service on most everything. Parts and shop manuals are usually all I need for this sort of stuff. Repair shops are certainly better than sales wetware for candor, but they're busy folks. They'd rather fix my instrument than give me advice on how to avoid service and buy parts for myself. Back to the Kurzweil parts rant.

 

The cruel irony here is that all of these fine manufacturers have flushed my resume at least once. Kurzweil twice. They've been equally receptive to my many suggestions over the years. I'd rather pay more, and get the same instrument in a box that takes a good decade to pulverize.

They clearly see things differently. I'm ranting again.

 

Under 100 pounds in a flight case is huge. I must be able to fly. If the controller has to be disposable, so be it. I need to know the cost of doing business. Which one and how much? Must be 88 note weighted with pitch bend and mod. Sliders (volume + 8 more?) on the left. Ample buttons and knobs. At least 3 switch and 2 continuous pedals.

 

I liked the kurzweil / fatar feel just fine. Don't want anything with a lighter feel. I can take some pain in the feel department for the sake of durability, but not on the sounds.

 

The PC2R and what controller is question dejour.

 

Thanks again.

[wmp]

Thanks Sue,

 

I looked at the promega stuff on your recommendation. That approach could solve my durability problems a provide me with most of the sounds. But I'd have to go hear it and it also gets me into a dedicated organ and the two instrument problem. I've heard of roadies, but never actually met one. Its shape might put me over the top dimension wise. Airlines are picky.

 

I know the PC2R from that poor dysfunctional company has the sounds I need, without listening to anything else right now. My focus today is finding a slightly smaller 88 note controller with enough sliders and buttons to drive it. The promega is a bit lean in that department. Certainly worth a good look, but not today.

 

Sincere thanks.

[gangsu]

You're welcome, wmp. Too bad I couldn't help you out.

 

Funny about the roadies. Try traveling in drag, they'll be falling over eachother to haul your gear.

 

Good luck!

[ITGITC]

wmp,

 

I'd say, and I think that you would agree, that you and your lifestyle are hard on controllers.

 

First you say that you are "too excitable to play on a whuli all night long without swapping out dead reeds every so often."

 

You also state that you fly with your axe. I can only imagine the kind of treatment that baggage handlers give your keyboard!

 

You've got to admit, you have a pro lifestyle that demands over-engineered, heavy-duty, PROFESSIONAL equipment, right?

 

I've got a PC2X and I love it (as Gangsu can attest). I've not had any problems with it. I love the Kurzweil piano sounds.

 

When I gig, I carry it inside a SKB 5817W Case. I'm my own roadie. I don't fly with it. When I'm not gigging, the keyboard is in my studio at home.

 

I know that many of the PC88 actions were flawed by weights coming off the ends of the keys. I don't know to what extent this affected the action in the PC2X. Problems with velocity usually stem from dirt and smoke in the contacts.

 

I think that your best solution is to suck it up... Go ahead and buy the PC2X & plan on replacing the action every couple of years (or less).

 

Good luck!

 

Tom

[Immo]

Originally posted by gangsu:

It pisses me off the PM3 gets left off the list. every darn time. Somebody back me up here!

You looking for backup? I got one, I like it too.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Immordino:

You looking for backup? I got one, I like it too.

dammit Immordino, the innuendo fest is over.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

I think that your best solution is to suck it up... Go ahead and buy the PC2X & plan on replacing the action every couple of years (or less).

There is gas in your car.

 

[wmp]

Thanks to all. Good realistic, understanding replies.

 

Actually, the PC88 only flew once. In a flight case from day one. Mostly got moved locally in my car or a band van. Regular weekends, an occasional week or two out.

 

Only lost one weight in the manner described. My problem is the flimsy right angle plastic thing that meets a felt pad as part of the fake piano feel breaks off. That key becomes noisy. I got squeaks, attack noises, release noises, and a case full of plastic debris that makes it sound like a rain stick when you move it. I may scan a sample and put it up as my picture.

 

Really, you have to hit this unit harder than a whurli to get a 127 velocity. After the first action, I was pretty darn careful and it didn't help much.

 

Whatever I get will have to take three times the playing and even more bumps. I was worried enough about me being roadworthy.

 

So I'm looking for a nice disposable controller with sliders on the left.

[ITGITC]

wmp,

 

Since you are a PC88 user, you already know the interface, right?

 

You know that you like the Kurzweil sounds.

 

You're just bummed out about the fall-apart fatar action, right?

 

Why don't you call Sweetwater Sound (I don't work for them). Ask them about their support. Ask them about the ability to replace the action on a PC2X, should it fail. Ask them about the availability of parts for the PC2X and what they have in stock since Kurzweil is in bankcruptcy.

 

Once you have this information, you can make an intelligent decision.

 

Go for it!

 

Tom

[wmp]

Tom, I misread. I'm leaning hard toward the rack version. I've been trying to buy actions for the PC88, and actions to carry as spares for a possible PC2X for about a week with no luck.

 

The PC2X an attractive mistake to want to make, because of the flight case and familiar interface. But I think it'll be more like 5 or 6 actions a year, if I have comperable fortune. At the rate I'm going, I'm not sure that it's even possible to buy 5 or 6 actions a year.

 

#include

[Immo]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Originally posted by Immordino:

You looking for backup? I got one, I like it too.

dammit Immordino, the innuendo fest is over.

Wow that wasn't intended. Now rereading it it was so vague, it could've meant anything.

[wmp]

Funny you should mention Sweetwater. I bought the PC88 from them. The first one delivered had very different velocity response between the black and white keys. Sharps were much too sensative. They swapped it out immediately.

 

The second one had cold solder joints and died on a gig. I did my own soldering, and that was all fine until a week ago.

 

Sweetwater's proposed solution for the crumbling action was for me to pay round trip shipping, so they could perform the service I'd rather perform myself. Parts please? Key weights only, to service the action at the component level. No thanks. Whole actions? Still waiting.

 

I tried to explain some of this to them and get help like the pro support you describe. They're not getting high scores for cognitive ability, but they do have the nicest phone jail. I never realized how important my call really was.

[gangsu]

You're a riot, wmp. excellent descriptives. I'm having a few too many silly moments at the expense of your thread though. Mea culpa. (that means i'm sorry, right?)

 

Immordino, you have to admit the scope of your words can be broader than you realize. That's a good thing.

 

EDIT. that's some kind of condescending assumption! Who am I to know what you realize? In fact, I'm certain I don't! ZIP.

[wmp]

No problem gangsu, enjoy. I love gallows humor myself. Please don't earn money writing anything funny about it without throwing me a bone.

[ITGITC]

wmp,

 

I'm sorry that you've had such problems with Sweetwater.

 

Unfortunately I'm all out of good ideas.

 

I guess that the only keyboard with an action that nobody complains about is made by Yamaha... or is it?

 

Tom

[wmp]

Sweetwater is a decent outfit. They swapped out the first bad one and did the right thing. It's hard to blame them for a manufacturers woes, but it would be nice to get better response out of them.

 

If you look at it from their perspective, the swap cost 'em more than any profit. I buy one lousy keyboard from 'em and don't even say hello for years, in spite of the fact that they've been sending greetings and reading material steadily ever since. Now I have the nerve to ask for help that ain't on the menu. Quickly, to boot. Can't really blame 'em for not kicking out the red carpet.

[gangsu]

Talk about problems with Sweetwater, here's my water woes...I've been gone one hour tops to do a short live broadcast on the local TV station, come home, walking up the sidewalk noticing my windows are all steamed.. I've sprung a leak somewhere under the kitchen sink. Hot water, all over the kitchen, running through the floor, flooding the basement....

[gangsu]

sorry for barging in there with my own panic attack. Not used to seeing water dripping off the furnace fuse box.

back to you, wmp.

[Song80s]

I maintain that the Rd 700 is a good board. To call the keys spongy is a strange comment. Plus you can adjust the keytouch.

 

I know there have been 3 posts about broken carriages in 2 years. That needs to be compared to the several hundred, no, several thousand satisfied Rd 700 owners.

 

It doesn't matter much to me what someone eventually buys. I think posts should be objective and repairs put in perspective.

 

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

wmp,

 

Unfortunately I'm all out of good ideas.

 

I guess that the only keyboard with an action that nobody complains about is made by Yamaha... or is it?

 

Tom

[wmp]

Greg,

 

The issue isn't whether a particular instrument is a good board. It's whether it suits a particular purpose. Arguably, everything I've played on is a good board. Sound and feel are pretty subjective. I've tried to explain my needs, tastes and quirks without dissing any vendors. Yes, I've failed miserably on the latter.

 

Folks in this forum are among the few who have made an effort to listen and offer advice. Thanks again, all.

 

Durability depends on usage. In addition to knowing how many happy and unhappy campers there are, you also need to know what kind of playing each one does.

 

For playing 6 gigs a week with a variety of high energy bands, the PC88 didn't cut it. If I used the same axe at home and for lighter duty gigging, I'd probably be defending it in this discussion.

 

My experience, which includes seeing an impressive pile of dead plastic at Kurzweil's R&D facility on three occasions, indicates a problem much larger than me. Clearly it's a known problem, and the lack of vendor candor about it makes it impossible to make any sane guesses about things getting better or worse. My limited research leaves me guessing worse.

 

To get sagely advice from a guy who owns a dozen B3s, every current organ offering, and is otherwise an old gearhead, I sat in with an old band on a Nord Electro last night. The controls were foriegn enough to make it feel clumsy, but it did sound quite nice and had a good organ feel. No wall wart either. Light plastic construction, but I know nothing about plastics. Some will stop bullets, some won't. It seemed to be better built than many. The thought of a 17 pound axe in a 40 or 50 pound flight case seems almost ridiculous.

 

Today, I'm trying to take the advice of Bruce Lee. Be like water, my friend. It always finds a way.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by gangsu:

It pisses me off the PM3 gets left off the list. every darn time. Somebody back me up here!

 

That's because most of us have never had the chance to try one! If they would only publish their dealer list on their web site at least when one is travelling one could make a special side trip to try one, but they do not do that.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by wmp:

T I've heard of roadies, but never actually met one. Its shape might put me over the top dimension wise. Airlines are picky.

 

They expect you to buy it a seat. You would think it would travel in a soft case (even - not like there are many breakable parts) just fine but no, the airlines insist on roadies being shipped as passengers.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by GregC:

I maintain that the Rd 700 is a good board. To call the keys spongy is a strange comment. Plus you can adjust the keytouch.

I like to feel a solid bottom on the keystroke. I find it helps the finger rebound when playing fast. If there is any lack of definition I hang on the key longer.

 

It feels like one is getting energy back from the key but actually its probably just a case of the reflexes knowing when a key is all the way down so you can start preparing the finger for its next note.

 

I felt this first while playing a friend's RD700 at a jam and checked it in a store and felt the same thing, so it was not just his (heavilly gigged) board (although it may not be all RD700s)

 

I know there have been 3 posts about broken carriages in 2 years. That needs to be compared to the several hundred, no, several thousand satisfied Rd 700 owners.

 

:

That's the difficulty with anecdotal evidence - you don't hear how many people have not had trouble. So a popular board will always show up more than a rare board. By this measure the most reliable board is the one that never made its way past the show room floor. As we say in the computer business, if you get no bug reports, its a sure sign your product is an abysmal failure, because it means no one is using it.

[Song80s]

wmp, let us know what you settle on. I was a B3/Rhodes guy in the late '70's. At least we have all these choices these days and we can quickly toss aside the mediocre.

 

Byrd, thanks for clarifying your observation on the RD. That does make sense. I am always working on finger speed & dexterity and shift my practice between the RD and my Yamaha U3 ( 53") upright. It is a minor adjustment

for me.

 

I think we have hit on a need for much better info on defect/ recall rate and unit sales. Y/R/K do not provide this info.

 

I would like to believe the big 3 have very low defect rates

on all models. They all make ' gig quality' gear.

 

Plus, especially after a model has been out 2 years, why not fess up on unit sales by model ? I don't understand the need for ' secrecy' and ' proprietary info' when a model

is at the end of its production run. I think this benefits the company because they have a ' story ' to tell and it benefits

customers since we are better informed.

 

Sure beats all this Internet guesswork