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Stuctured addaptive Synthesis


Michiel

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Hi guys,

 

I'm into old roland stuff again :rolleyes:

 

Here's my list of keyb that use sas. Are there any more? (not only from roland, but maybe other manufactors?)

 

Roland:

Rd-1000 / mks-20 / p-330

rd-200/250/300/300s

 

Rhodes:

mk-60/mk-20

 

Any of the old kr serie maybe?

 

And are there keyb other than the rd-1000 and mks-20 module that use that chorus?

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Wasn't this just Roland's fancy term for FM (DX-style)?

 

Anyway, I recall playing a KR (not that you see 'm anywhere on the 'Net and playing a "pizzicato" patch which was just the run of the mill sample-based GM thingy (but back then, very impressive for someone who's 13 years old with a Juno-60 and a Solina ;) .

 

I also recall seeing an ad for the RD1000.. damn, that's a beast of a machine.

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I dunno, but based on results I'd think not. I have an MK80, and in all instances its sounds are much closer to the real thing than anything I ever heard from a DX-7.

Originally posted by Yoozer:

Wasn't this just Roland's fancy term for FM (DX-style)?

SAS was an early attempt at physical modeling. There are some resources on the Web to do further research; put "roland sa synthesis" into a search engine and you'll get some interesting things.

 

Michiel, the other Rhodes is the above-mentioned MK80.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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Also the Roland VK-1000 was SA. It did Hammond, Rhodes, Vibes and Clav if I remember correctly. The overtomes of all the sounds, not just the Hammond, could be controlled from the drawbars. Very cool.

 

SA has nothing to do with DX- style FM. It combines sampling with formant modelling and other details.

 

Read here for an excellent explanation of SA synthesis. :thu:

Moe

---

 

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Homeline or maybe in between. But the kr-500 for instance was (in my memory) a good keyboard. But I also know that the kr-500 was pcm based.

 

Well, I think I'm wanting something impossible:

 

1. a light board (with or without speakers) with very expressive e.p's and most of all with a good analog chorus like the mks-20 has.

 

In an earlier post I Asked if there was a way to buy a chorus that would sound like the one in a mks-20.

 

The only post I got was: get youself a mks-20 again.

 

Well if you have any suggestions... please :)

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IIRC, SA wasn't FM, nor physical modeling as we intend it today: It was based on additive synthesis. What they did was to perform Fourier analysis on piano samples, heavily editing them for best realism and dynamic response, then invent an engine which would interpolate between several values, dynamic-wise. The result was a different waveform for each MIDI velocity value (127), times 88 notes! Those waveforms weren't stored in ROM, though (that would have required a massive amount of memory), but were generated by the synth engine. It was the best electronic recreation of piano sound for the times. A bit clinical-sounding, but *no velocity-switching* and no simplistic filtering. They used the three SA piano sounds, plus vibes, clavinet, and two EPs, on several instruments - I think the first one was the RD-1000.
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found it:

 

Note: the RD 250 series is a 76 note keyboard, while the RD 300 series is the full 88. The "s" at the end denotes a much higher quality of action. The RD 300s (which is the one I have) uses a design that costs more to produce and kicks butt over the RD 300 which relies on springs. I've worked on the RD 300 before, and I had to stretch some of the springs beyond where they were designed to be stretched, just to even out the action and the release of each note.

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I've owned both the RD300 and the 300S. The 300 keyboard was not really weighted; the throw of the keys was similar to a piano, but it totally lacked resistance. The 300S, on the other hand, had a pleasant keyboard to play, but it was so heavy, it was impossible for me to move it without help. The 250S was slightly better, but still very heavy - a lot of wooden parts.

 

I've played the RD1000 extensively too, and to me, it had the best SA implementation (not surprisingly, since it had several programmable parameters) and the best action.

 

I also have played a couple of home models with those same sounds, plus a spectacular amp system; I was really impressed, they were a pleasure to play. Don't ask me for the model numbers... I've never been able to follow all the developements in home pianos!

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I also have an RD-300s that I used a lot up until about 10 years ago. It's now a practice piano for the kids. Roland was so secretive about SA that it wasn't possible to compare different models in the line. I thought the 300s would have pretty much the same besic sound as the MKS-20 and was very dissapointed when I discovered how much better the MKS-20 sounded.
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Originally posted by michielOSX30:

Bill,

 

Isn't that because of the lack of the mks-20 chorus?

Not necessarily. Roland came out with a 1U cheapo version of the MKS-20 called the P-330 (I think I remember that right), but the sound engine just didn't sound nearly as good. So they cut corners somehow. Maybe that's the same engine as in the RD-300?

Moe

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I still use my mks-20 all the time. That was money well spent. I use it a lot midied to a few things to make that big pop 80's rhodes. I just sent in my submision for the keyboard corner #9 Cd and on my track i took a solo on the mks-20. I used bank 5 ep 1 with the tremolo on. Kind of a poor man's suitcase. I would have used my real rhodes, but I just moved and haven't brought it upstairs to my studio yet. The rhodes and a model 200 are still in the garage. Man, I'm lazy. I see the mks-20 for sale for $350 all the time. It does what it does very well.
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I really wish they (or someone else) would have another go at this method. With the price of processing power having dropped so much since 1987 (when SA first hit the market), I'd think it would be a good way to begin superceding the limitations of multisampling.

 

Originally posted by marino:

IIRC, SA wasn't FM, nor physical modeling as we intend it today: It was based on additive synthesis. What they did was to perform Fourier analysis on piano samples, heavily editing them for best realism and dynamic response, then invent an engine which would interpolate between several values, dynamic-wise. The result was a different waveform for each MIDI velocity value (127), times 88 notes! Those waveforms weren't stored in ROM, though (that would have required a massive amount of memory), but were generated by the synth engine. It was the best electronic recreation of piano sound for the times. A bit clinical-sounding, but *no velocity-switching* and no simplistic filtering. They used the three SA piano sounds, plus vibes, clavinet, and two EPs, on several instruments - I think the first one was the RD-1000.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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Coyote,

 

Absolutely right! Something this expressive just waiting to be developed...

 

I looked it up, and you were so kind to look at the internals of both the mks-20 and the mk-80, when I posted a question how to compare the mks-20 and the mk-80.

 

You said it was more or less identical. Recently I'm interested again, and I posted an ad on a few sites in Holland.

 

BUt now I also read that the Chorus, was not on the main "board" .... anyway, the question is, Does the mk-80 also has this analog board. I had the mks-20 a short time and for me the real magic came from this chorus...

 

ps: that's why I'm also really anxious(?) to know If there is a pedal sounding like it ( I know my boss chorus, does not)

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Originally posted by michielOSX30:

The difference between the p-330 and the mks-20 is the chorus.

I disagree. I owned an MKS-20 when the P-330 came out (and still own it, BTW). I worked in a music store at the time, and had ample opportunity to play with the P-330. It just didn't have "that" sound, chorus turned on or not. Something else was missing, a sense of high fidelity or something.

 

I see the same thing with the D-550/D-50 and the U series.

Moe

---

 

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Originally posted by mate_stubb:

I see the same thing with the D-550/D-50

In a move I've never been able to find anyone who could explain, the D550 is missing portamento (which the D50 has).

 

Perhaps you're right, and it's because the engine was slightly different and couldn't support it. I've never noticed a difference in sound though - but then again I've never directly A/B'd the two.

 

I have five cards full of programs that I wrote when I had my D50. I used porta all the time, and it annoys me that those programs won't work the way I intended when I try to use them on my D550. :mad:

 

dB

:snax:

 

:keys:==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <==:rawk:

 

Professional Affiliations: Royer LabsMusic Player Network

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I'm pretty sure the older HP pianos had SA. The 3000 and 5000 comes to mind.

 

I am a STAUNCH fan of the SA that roland put in those models you mentioned. To me the expression of the instrument is more important that the accuracy. I can make music on something that feels right to me.

 

I have owned the MKS-20, several p-330's, an RD-300s and an RD-250s. Still have the RD-250s and will never sell it. It's just that good to me. A perfect key to sound connection, nice action and VERY expressive. I never get tired of piano 1.

 

I can tell you that I personally like the p-330 and RD300/250s over the MKS-20 and RD-1000 sound. I think it's a tad warmer. Maybe not a good on chorus but I like Piano 1 better on the 300/250s - at least to me. Although I can kick myself for not getting a mint RD-1000 that went up for sale about 6 months ago. The guy had the original box and not a scratch... went for a measly 800.00 I hear the action is awesome in the RD-1000.

 

I can vouch that the RD-300 action is inferior to the 300s. Our church had a regular 300 and it was like hitting a brick wall. The 250s and 300s are not this way much more fluid and easy to play. Altough I think my RD-300s was a tad stiffer than my RD-250s... could be b/c of the age difference.

 

I think the FP-8 had what they call Advanced SA. I've never heard of played it... always wanted to get one but I heard the keys break. Never had a key break on my RD's

 

I can only think of 3 pianos I would buy over and RD-300s or RD-250s and they are the Kawai ES-3, Yamaha P-250 and P120. My first pick would be the ES-3.

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Originally posted by PaulSchwarz:

I have owned the MKS-20, several p-330's, an RD-300s and an RD-250s. I can tell you that I personally like the p-330 and RD300/250s over the MKS-20 and RD-1000 sound. I think it's a tad warmer. Maybe not a good on chorus but I like Piano 1 better on the 300/250s - at least to me.

All right...a guy who's owned 'em all!

I know that this is going back in time, but I remember playing an MKS-20 several months after purchasing my RD-300s and thinking that the lower octaves of Piano 1, which get pretty funky on the RD-300, held together much better on the MKS-20. But I never had a chance to A/B them side by side, so I could have been wrong. Comments, Paul?

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I really digged the RD300s, the bass notes were a bit weird though. I think they sounded okay in the mix though... I loved putting an Alesis MIDIFEX unit on it and just going off into Keith Jarrett land...

 

I also had the P330 but the Yamaha P80 I had just made it feel unexpressive. I think it must be possible to have a new SAS piano out, its clear samples just don't quite work for expression and I'm sure SAS after 20 years (damn I'm old!) would be something to behold if done right.

 

I will say something though... the RD300s was damn noisy,you could hear the quantisation really loud over a PA if you didn't roll of the EQ...

 

Originally posted by Bill H.:

Originally posted by PaulSchwarz:

I have owned the MKS-20, several p-330's, an RD-300s and an RD-250s. I can tell you that I personally like the p-330 and RD300/250s over the MKS-20 and RD-1000 sound. I think it's a tad warmer. Maybe not a good on chorus but I like Piano 1 better on the 300/250s - at least to me.

All right...a guy who's owned 'em all!

I know that this is going back in time, but I remember playing an MKS-20 several months after purchasing my RD-300s and thinking that the lower octaves of Piano 1, which get pretty funky on the RD-300, held together much better on the MKS-20. But I never had a chance to A/B them side by side, so I could have been wrong. Comments, Paul?

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