Bose PAS : is the jury still out?

[tarkus]

I've been glossing over some of the older threads re: Bose PAS. It seems that most KC folks have given it a thumb's down primarily on price and the mystery of stereo or multi input from one or more keyboards. If anyone has tried this system with multiple keyboards I would love to hear about it. So far all I got was some old threads by Lee Flier (guitarist) and a few guys that ran one keyboard through it with mixed results.

 

I don't wish to stir up a hornet's nest.

 

A main complaint, aside from thoughts on stereo piano, is the accomadation of one system for one instrument.

 

If this thing becomes affordable (under $1000) will anyone give it a second look?

 

Has anyone played through or bought one recently?

 

Have any of the ney sayers changed their opinions?

 

Have any of its former supporters changed their stance? Is Lee still playing through the system?

[zeronyne]

I think the major paradigm shift that this presents is difficult for people to accept. It's a first generation product, for all intents and purposes, so it's going to meet genuine (and the the crtitics' credit, sincere) resistance.

 

Then there is the Bose thing. I'm not sure if the polarizing effect of the brand name is intentional (which it very well may be), but people, especially musicians, either love or hate Bose with a passion. There is seldom any middle ground.

 

That said, I recently heard a piano/bass/drum trio with the bass player using a Bass Pod XT Pro into a PAS, and the piano player using a Clavinova straight into another PAS. I thought it sounded great. The venue would not have been conducive to stereo anyway, so there was no way to gauge the effectiveness or accuracy of the stereo image, but it sounded full and focused to my ear.

 

For me, the money issue is irrelevant in some senses. Of course the cost vs practicality ratio is important. But if it's good enough to become indispensable, I will find a way to get it. I think the bigger issue over how it sounds (which will be subjective) is its size relative to what is being replaced. This thing is BIG. Not as big as a JBL PA cab with 2 X 15" and a horn and the sub, but if each bandmamber has one, there will easily be more equipment than is normally at a gig that could be supported by a bunch of PAS systems.

 

But bottom line? I think it sounded as good as any mid-high end PA cabinet out there, and definitely as good as their own Acoustimass series.

[tarkus]

Thanks Zeronyne, I forgot the Bose - love em or hate em - theory. I do believe cost is always an issue. If I had enough money to buy a Pro keyboard, but not enough for a decent amp, I'll still buy the top end keyboard in anticipation of purchasing a suitable amp.

[Lee Flier]

Hiya tarkus, yes my band is still using our 3 PAS's! We have had them nearly a year now and yes we still love them. In fact we usually grumble when we have to use conventional PA's now.

 

Dave Bryce got to play through one at the recent Musicplayer party in California, which we also played at. He seemed to be really pleased with the sounds he was getting from his boards - I know they sounded great to me! But I'll let him comment on it himself.

 

FWIW, before we got hooked up with the PAS's I must've been one of the few people on the planet who had a neutral opinion of Bose. I didn't realize there was such a love/hate thing going on with them, but there definitely is as I've found out since. There are people who immediately trash the PAS simply because it's Bose. I had no previous experience with any of their other products so had no idea what to expect one way or the other, but aside from the fact that we love the product, the engineering and support team for the product have been awesome. If you want to discuss further you can check out the PAS forums under http://www.bose.com/musicians . The whole team hangs out there (including the inventor and chief engineer who are great guys) and there's a lot of valuable feedback from buyers.

[tarkus]

Thanks Lee - I'll be interested to hear some future updates on this.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Dave Bryce got to play through one at the recent Musicplayer party in California, which we also played at.

As did I, on guitar and some vocals, at the same party. It was the first time I'd played with the PAS, and I was pretty impressed.

 

To qualify that, I suppose I should say that I was no more or less impressed than I would be with any good PA system. As a listener (outdoor gig), the dispersion seemed very good as I walked around a rather wide sound field. I found the frequency range covered to be mostly good, perhaps with a little perceived bump around 8-10k. While playing, I wasn't bothered by any directionality or sonic quality issues.

 

All in all, I'd certainly be comfortable playing gigs with these as opposed to my band's big-ass JBL system.

 

- Jeff

[Botch.]

Originally posted by Jeff Da Weasel:

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Dave Bryce got to play through one at the recent Musicplayer party in California, which we also played at.

As did I, on guitar and some vocals, at the same party. It was the first time I'd played with the PAS, and I was pretty impressed.

- Jeff

I was listening very carefully at the same party too. It amazed me that the volume was so even, sitting right in front of the band and then walking back towards Phil's house, just the right volume and clarity everywhere. I wish I'd got the chance to sing thru them, my band is currently trying to decide whether to replace our recently-departed soundman; if we could afford the PAS I think we'd go it alone without hesitation.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Overall I wasn't too impressed with the PAS...however, if your band does a lot of private parties where the band is more background than feature, this system sounds really good from a far distance. When I was hanging more than 50ft. from the band, it sounded as though a stereo was on...up close the high mids were hurting my ears

[Lee Flier]

Steve, I'm sure we could've tweaked the systems so they didn't hurt your ears - the EQ is pretty good. We didn't spend much time messing with it though since it was a pretty relaxed situation. Once you start using it regularly you find settings that work for you, just like you would with an amp or instrument or outboard gear once you own it for a few weeks.

[burningbusch]

My group recently tried them on several gigs and rehearsals. We have used the Mackie SRM 450s and have been pleased with them. We tried out a pair of towers with subs for each.

 

Our first gig with them was difficult. On stage it sounded like a mess. We got feedback at fairly low volume--something that's not supposed to happen. Our bass player was having trouble with his amp so we tried running him direct into the Bose. It sounded awful--all mids, no meat. We DID get positive response from the crowd that the band sounded very good. We did not feel good about how we sounded and had difficulty hearing things on stage.

 

I tried all my keyboards through them. I thought the Rhodes sounded somewhat better through the Bose than the Mackies. The Vl1, analog synths, Motif, PC2R and soft synths sounded better through the Mackies. The Bose are missing high-end sizzle, IMHO. I don't feel the Mackie's have a hyped high-end. They have about the same high-end as my ADAMs and JBL 4412. It's what I expect. The Bose are simply lacking in that area. With the exception of the Rhodes (which doesn't really have anything above 4KHz), the other keyboards sounded more artificial through the Bose (probably because of the high-end issue).

 

Our drummer sometimes uses an electronic kick (Roland V-drum). We tried it through the Bose and found it to be very telling. There was plenty of sub (below 100Hz) and mid-highs but no meat to the kick at all. It sounded very strange. Again we A/Bed them against a known speaker (this time the JBL 4412) and the kick sounded as expected--plently of meat and punch.

 

One of the problems is that these come with only preset EQs and there is no way of controlling volume of the sub. Short of running a mixer and EQ in between, you don't have a lot of control over EQ.

 

We went back to the Mackies last night and got back our sound with punch. My take on the Bose PAS is that this is in many ways a remanufacture of the 801/901, using many small drivers to provide full frequency response, but like the 801/901s they lack great high end and have issues in the bass (the 801/901s used active EQ to try to make up for the lack of bass but it never sounded as good as a single large speaker).

 

I think the Bose can make a band sound more like a CD than other speaker systems. For some bands that might be their goal and it might be why some people prefer the sound of the Bose--smooth and compressed. I am of the opinion live bands should NOT try to sound like CDs.

 

According to Bose marketing we should have probably had three PAZ (the bass player was using his amp most of the time), but based my listening I have zero confidence we could have gotten the same sound using the PAZ with however many subs they say you need.

 

Given their price tag I was expecting to be blown away by the sound. Obviously I was not.

 

Busch.

[Jazz+]

We used one for about two weeks for our digital piano, jazz guitar and vocals and then returned it. Yeah it is sort of like a tall thin tower version of a Bose 802. The mids are good, the highs are not so impressive, there are no lows unless you buy the little add on subwoofer which is boomy with little upper lows. There seems to be spot in the upper lows that is somewhat weak even when using the tower and the little sub. And it's a mono system unless you buy two which would cost over $4,000. Two would probably be nice, but having just one was too thin and one dimensional sounding. It sounded unnatural to us hearing the sound come from just one source. We prefer two JBL or Mackie PA speakers, even though they don't have the mid range clarity, just because the sound is fatter and wider than a single PAS.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

At the end of the day, keep in mind the most important thing: this is a speaker. Speakers are some of the most subjective things in audio. In a group of ten people, you'd be hard-pressed to find any model at any price that all ten people will say sounds great. Or sounds bad.

 

That's why I didn't base any of my expectations of the Bose system on what other people said... I had to hear for myself. And I say, for me, they're vey usable.

 

- Jeff

[Steve LeBlanc]

a speaker and an amplification system in one Jeff

 

my opinion is based on one thing, my experience standing in front of hundreds of PA systems for both large and small venues...to my ears most other systems sound better and hurt less at higher volumes though the PAS did 'control' the overall sound more...like it was all compressed coming from a box...that goes against what I like to hear but others will love it.

 

not claiming to be an expert here...just stating my opinion FWIW

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc:

a speaker and an amplification system in one Jeff

True dat!

 

- Jeff

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Dave Bryce got to play through one at the recent Musicplayer party in California, which we also played at. He seemed to be really pleased with the sounds he was getting from his boards - I know they sounded great to me! But I'll let him comment on it himself.

I actually had my own sound system pointed at myself (Yamaha floor monitors, Crown power amp), so I didn't really get a good idea what the PAS towers sounded like on keys by themselves.

 

We fed an aux out of my mixer to the PAS system because with my monitors pointed at me the keyboards weren't projecting enough to the audience.

 

Also, I believe that for most of the day, the PA system that Dak brought was running along with the PAS, so I couldn'r really get much of an idea what they sounded like with a full band when I wasn't playing, either.

 

The PAS system was tunning by itself during What The's set, though, and I thought it sounded pretty good...but weren't only the vocals going through it?

 

dB

[coyote]

I own a pair of Bose speakers, so I cannot be counted in the "hate Bose" group.

 

I played the PAS some time ago and reported on it (I wasn't impressed). I heard a band last week using them and, once again, I wasn't impressed! I can see where they'd be real cool in a lower-volume setting, but at high volumes they just ain't doing the job IMO.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

The PAS system was tunning by itself during What The's set, though, and I thought it sounded pretty good...but weren't only the vocals going through it?

Vocals, kick drum and bass. I normally mic my amp, but I didn't have my attenuator with me and the amps that were there were plenty loud enough!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

I think the Bose can make a band sound more like a CD than other speaker systems. For some bands that might be their goal and it might be why some people prefer the sound of the Bose--smooth and compressed. I am of the opinion live bands should NOT try to sound like CDs.

Me too. Then again I am not of the same opinion as you in that I DON'T think the PAS makes a band sound like a CD. It does if you back off a ways from it because the sounds all blend together without sounding off axis. But particularly if you're closer up, I find you can actually get much more dynamic range while maintaining clarity, than with a conventional PA, and it doesn't sound compressed at all.

 

I think if you try to put a whole band through two of them you probably don't get the benefits of it as much at all. Also, it really does take a little time to get used to it and tweak the systems the way you want them. Some bands are using third party subs with them too, although we didn't find that necessary. I've found you can coax just about any kind of sound out of them, it's just a question of how, because it's a little different than trying to get the same sound out of a regular PA.

 

In general, like Jeff said, as with any piece of gear, it's not for everybody. Some will love it and others will say it's not for them, and neither should be taken as a blanket statement.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

The PAS system was tunning by itself during What The's set, though, and I thought it sounded pretty good...but weren't only the vocals going through it?

Vocals, kick drum and bass. I normally mic my amp, but I didn't have my attenuator with me and the amps that were there were plenty loud enough!

Cool. Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't sure what was coming from where. The overall sound was quite good, though...

 

Did I mention that you guys seriously rock? I was honored to have the opportunity to play with you!

 

dB

[JeffLearman]

I'll be interested to hear them.

 

I'd hesitate to use them in a mixed situation, where some folks have the PAS and others have amps or use traditional monitor/PA.

 

The reason is the Bose effectively radiate and lose volume with an inverse square law, whereas conventional speakers lose volume with an inverse cube law. Most speakers radiate as a section of a sphere, whereas the Bose radiate as a section of a cylinder (almost, anyway).

 

What that means is the volume doesn't drop as fast as you move away from the Bose, compared to traditional speakers.

 

What THAT means is that the mix won't ever be right everywhere. Just in key spots.

 

This effect might be minimal in small houses with huge systems (tall stacks of speakers, effectively working like the Bose), where the drop in volume isn't significant. But in most venues, I think it would be very significant. If the PAS sounds right just in front of the mains, it'll be too loud at the back of the house. The best compromise would be to blend it to sound good in the middle, but then the volume on the stage might be a bit low for a good monitor.

 

For myself, I'd want a pair, so I can stay stereo. I'll just have to keep buying those lottery tickets!

[AmplifierExperts]

I read the Bose white paper on this cylindrical radiator and it's all marketing hype--they don't provide even one piece of evidence as to how their system violates the laws of physics (specifically the inverse square law). In fact, they contradict themselves by saying that this cylindrical radiator attenuates less over distance than a conventional driver that beams. Physics tells us that a beam attenuates less because the energy is focused. So the converse should hold true for the Bose.

I can just imagine, if Jimi Hendrix were alive today, his reaction to such a speaker. And bass? Two 6.5" drivers? To fill an auditorium? Somehow I don't think so..

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Have you heard the PA, Mark, or just read the paper?

 

- Jeff

[burningbusch]

I haven't returned the ones I've been trying out. I've been playing more with the EQ to see if I can get them to sound more to my liking on keys. Clavs sound good through the Bose, like the Rhodes. The high-end is still a problem. Anything that needs sizzle like brass or analog synths just doesn't cut it at all. Again the bass is strange and I haven't been able to fix it.

 

While all this EQing to make certain things sound right is OK for people playing the same instrument all night, it's a pain for keyboardists who typically are dealing with a very wide range of sounds.

 

Busch.

[AmplifierExperts]

I haven't heard it yet, and I'm sure it's good for certain acoustic instrumental amplication, but I can't picture The Rolling Stones using a system like that.

Bose has traditionally been a hyper of fake bass. Granted, they've done some pretty amazing stuff with AcoustiMass technology, but it's not hi-fi by any means.

At any rate, I don't see how Bose has any special privilage to violate physical laws of transducers. You reduce inverse square loss by narrowing beamwidth, not widening it.

To the good, if the system has a neutral midrange, it can be good for small clubs in situations where there are acoustic instruments that need to fill a room. I don't see this filling an auditorium with 130dB SPLs. :-)

[Sergievsky]

Anybody know how well they're selling? I hope they're selling well, if only to see the technology continue to develop. For bigger venues and such. I still haven't tried them yet, but I always think of them everytime I do a concert and the monitor (and FOH) engineer isn't very good.

[tarkus]

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

Anybody know how well they're selling? I hope they're selling well, if only to see the technology continue to develop. For bigger venues and such. I still haven't tried them yet, but I always think of them everytime I do a concert and the monitor (and FOH) engineer isn't very good.

That's the funny thing about economics - If it ain't selling - it's usually not up to snuff. The fact that a company went on the limb in this direction should spur innovation by other companies. I'm sure Behringer will come up with a $500 version in the next 5 years, but don't expect the same product or the same audio results.

[tarkus]

We've reached another cross-road in music technology on par with the old arguments:

 

Analog v digital

 

Softsynth v hardware

 

Guitar + Bass Amp v Keyboard amp v PA system

 

all of that group v Compact Virtual Radiant amplification thingy.

 

I think the keyboard jury will be hung on this for quite a while.

 

Until I read the Motion Sound KB 200s threads - I always felt that keyboard amp technology has taken a back seat to Guitar and Bass. I believ manufacturers lump key players into two categories: 1. Combo amp player, and 2. PA system user.

 

We are neither. Based on the Bose reviews by Keyboardists, I come to the conclusion that Bose took a similar approach : Keyboardists will ultimately rely on PA systems + most instruments are mono like guitar and bass - - just a generalization for the sake of argument.

 

However - with Bose trying to make 'something for everybody' - other manufacturers will be inspired to improve their products - I do believe Keyboard amps have improved tremendously but we haven't reached the point where we can look forward to our own 'Marshall' - I think the Motion Sound is almost there.

 

.... the jury is still out.

[Anomaly]

I play occasionally with a semi-acoustic progessive folk project that uses the PAS. They work phenomenally well for that format--even in some fairly large outdoor gigs, because it isn't loud music. I've never had so many positive comments about sound quality as we've experienced with the PAS.

 

We formerly used SRM450 Mackies, which were fantastic. But, once we adapted to the PAS concept-which took a few gigs-the PAS's are the best acoustic reproduction system any of us have ever played through. I still need to run a line into 2 of them for the piano, tho.

 

I might add that the unpright bass goes through a bass amp. But the drums are miked, including the kick.

 

I would have to hear a rock band through them before I could believe their potential there. That seems a stretch. But, I never would have believed they would perform as well as they do even for our use.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

Anybody know how well they're selling? I hope they're selling well, if only to see the technology continue to develop. For bigger venues and such. I still haven't tried them yet, but I always think of them everytime I do a concert and the monitor (and FOH) engineer isn't very good.

In talking with the Guitar Center people they were running for every five sold, four were returned. Understand that most people, like me, are trying them out and the only way to try them out is to buy them. I think they are either going to click with people doing an appropriate style of music or you're going to have to be willing to adapt your sound.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

My saga with the PAZ has ended. I returned them. While at Guitar Center I ran across the JBL EON G2 speaker (horn and 10") and decided to give them a shot as the Mackie SRM350s are still no where to be found. Using the little G2 reinforced my opinion of the PAZ, i.e that the frequency response of those speakers is...odd.

 

When A/Bing the Mackies against the ADAMs, 4412s and now G2 the sounds of the keyboards I ran through them sounded similar. The G2s didn't have boosted mid-range or lacking high-end. They did of course have some what less bass than the SRM 450s but that is expected. In contrast, all the keyboards sounded different, often significantly different, when run through the PAZ. Mids were boosted, highs and low mids lost, sub bass boosted. My opinion is that the Bose are EQed uniquely in order to reduce microphone feedback or to create a certain sound or presence. I was running them in supposedly flat EQ mode.

 

I suggest that keyboard players give them a complete evaluation before taking the plunge.

 

Busch.