Thoughts on the KP200s

[Rockitman]

Greetings everyone. New guy here. I have been playing on an S90 for over a year now and lately have been playing at many functions as a solo classical music act. I currently hook my S90 into my home stereo and it is a big pain in the ass to haul all of this equipment to a gig.

I have done some research and am ready to drop $850 on a Motion Sound KP200S. I have read the threads here and in other places on this amp and hear many good things. Thing is, most of these threads are from about a year ago.

Is this a good choice for what I am doing? I am predominantly playing acoustic piano voices and of course need the stereo effect for the S90.

Would my $850 be better spent on something else?

[drawback]

The KP200S is not going to be as hi-fi as your stereo - the sound is more compressed, no matter how much tweaking you do with the EQ. It's a stage amp with stage speakers.

 

That said, it's a great keyboard amp if you're into stereo (which you should be - Yamaha's Grand Piano sound depends on it), lots of channels, and enough inputs & output variety for any stage situation. The stereo can be thrown out to the far corners of the stage using the Expand feature - enough that "even" the lead guitar player can hear me on the opposite side.

 

Hope this helps!

[hermanjoe]

For my money, I'd get a small P.A. setup. a couple of monitors/speakers and a power amp and mixer. This would give you true stereo separation and a very high-fi sound. There are many threads about speakers on this forum, and you can find some opinions there.

 

good luck

[Rockitman]

Thanks for your opinons guys.

Next question:

 

Say I get the KP200S and later on I decide to spend more money for fuller sound, could I hook a couple of EONS through this amp? Would I need anything else?

[drawback]

It has an output for a powered subwoofer, and also it has left and right balanced outs to go to a PA board. Stands to reason you could use the balanced outs to go into a couple of powered Eons.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by drawback:

It has an output for a powered subwoofer, and also it has left and right balanced outs to go to a PA board. Stands to reason you could use the balanced outs to go into a couple of powered Eons.

I just don't understand this. You know how a powered speaker, like any old Mackie, has a separate amp for the big speaker and a separate amp for the little tweeter ('scuse my lack of terminology), and it's proudly touted as being BI-AMPED with special Linkwitz or Somebody's Crossovers to keep the frequencies fairly uninterrupted from high to low... Well. What's with this Motion Sound deal? So it's got 4 speakers in the box (I think). How does it amplify the signal from your keyboard? Is it bi-amped? Quad-amped? SINGLE AMPED? OH NO! wouldn't that tell you something??

 

I wish c4 were listening. We have the same keyboard. I would like to know what sounds better through his KP200. The mono pianos, or the stereo pianos.

 

Look, if somebody can prove me wrong, I will gladly stop being such a nag.

 

thanks for letting me run off.

[drawback]

The KP200S is a 2 channel stereo amplifier, built specifically for keyboards. Long & McQuade is the Canadian dealer - plus or minus $1500 CDN. Check it out at:

 

http://www.motion-sound.com/keypro_amplifiers.htm

 

I think all the information you need is there.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by drawback:

I think all the information you need is there.

You're pushing the envelope, Drawback. It tells me dick.

[drawback]

Each channel is a separate 100 watt amplifier with left and right inputs to match your L&R outputs on your keyboard - just as if you were plugging into the L&R inputs on your home stereo. There are four pairs of inputs, two pairs per channel.

 

Each side has 2 - 10" @ 150 watt speaker and 3.5" horn for the highs. I don't have the specs on the crossover, however it's in the owner's manual (at home) and can get that info for you later.

 

Does that tell you more than "Dick?"

[drawback]

Sorry, that should read: each side has ONE 10 inch speaker and a 3.5 inch horn.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by drawback:

Sorry, that should read: each side has ONE 10 inch speaker and a 3.5 inch horn.

I knew that's what you meant.

 

Ok I'm listening. So teach me. Is it a known fact in the pro audio world, that a separate channel denotes a separate amp? I know it's implied, but I assume nothing in this business I know nothing about.

[drawback]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Is it a known fact in the pro audio world, that a separate channel denotes a separate amp? I know it's implied, but I assume nothing in this business I know nothing about.

Does your home stereo have separate amplifiers? or is it one amplifier which is split into two channels? I can't give that technical an answer. However, the sound - as reproduced by your hi fi system or the KP200S - comes out in stereo, left and right.

[Steve in KS]

I bought a KP200s last spring. I've only been using it at home so I can't comment on it's effectiveness in a larger environment.

IMO it is a nice amp for my synths and organ sounds, but leaves much to be desired when it comes to piano. I have a Yamaha CLP 130 which is about the equivalent of the P120. The piano actually sounds better through it's own speakers than the KP200, although the piano is only 40 watts a channel and has 15cm and 5cm speakers.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[drawback]

Steve, thanks for your two cents. At home, I agree - it's not has full-spectrum as I'd like - but I didn't buy it for that.

 

I need a good stage amp that is light, powerful, enhances the piano imaging by being stereo, and delivers the side-to-side rotary speaker effect on a CX-3 or Electro, along with a variety of ins and outs for ever-changing PA setups.

 

Most of the time the sound that gets out to the audience is only through the PA system, as we run it out to the board. Sometimes there's a stereo PA, but most often it's not.

 

Again, it's not high fidelity I'm looking for here first and foremost. It's punchy, clean and (I hate this phrase) "cuts through" the maze of drums/bass/guitars on a stage, so the band and especially I, can monitor it. I don't know about you, but I have never heard my keys through a monitor "mix" that was "there" enough for me!

 

So in this case, it really delivers. It's a fine amp, but first & foremost, it's a stage amp.

[gangsu]

Hi Steve.

 

Talk slowly, and maybe you can help me one more time.

 

On the KP200, there are two separate channels. Two stereo inputs on each, with treble/mid/bass controls. You could run two keyboards, and 2 guitars through it, right? Or any number of combinations. And the amp is clever enough to sort that all out. In other words, it's also a mixer. It receives the signals, amplifies them, and sends them out the speakers.

 

Well, people say, no no, better to get an external mixer. More flexibility, and so on. Better adjustments of individual EQ's, and effects.

 

But I've been reading, with a great deal of interest, that most mixers take a stereo signal and sum it to mono, before it reaches the front of the house.

 

As I've discovered, to my great astonishment, you can't pretend that doing so will not severely compromise your sound. A state of the art stereo piano, through a mono system, sounds like crap.

 

Well, who's to say that the KP200 is maintaining any more fidelity than any external mixer?

 

I obviously don't understand.

 

agghhh I give up.

 

BTW, my home stereo is anything but Hi-Fidelity. Kind of a poor comparison to make, Drawback. Not that you had any way of knowing.

 

thanks for your time. Hope you can speed-read your merry way through this and get on with your day.

 

Sue

[drawback]

Right you are gangsu. About the onboard mixer and everything. Bass/Mids/Highs - well, not a high-mid, but the KP's got separate EQ on each channel. You can plug 4 STEREO instruments into it, or 8 MONO instruments. You can plug your left side into Channel One Left and your right side into Channel Two Right even, if you want separate EQ for each side. Whatever.

 

Remember, a lot of your EQ-ing goes into your sound before you even plug into anything.

 

Alas, yes, most PA boards out there sum your signal to mono and... crap you go. But many of us are in there with other instruments - usually the keys are stuck somewhere in the middle of a mix.

 

What goes out to the audience - that's the sound guy's job, which I can't control anyway.

 

However since it's all about me, I've got my KP200S parked right where I can hear my instruments, just fine

 

I think I said before that the KP has balanced outputs for L and R. It is a clean, un-EQ'd signal which in turn goes to the mixer inputs on the PA. If you're lucky, it's stereo and EQ'd from there. When the engineer knows what he/she's doing, it's the best of both worlds.

[Rockitman]

Well I have already purchased the amp. It's on its way. I believe I have bought the best thing I can for the money and will find out first hand how the piano voices sound very soon.

Steve, regarding your opinion on the piano sound through this amp, I'm wondering, are you raising this amp on a stand with a tilt? I'm told that if the amp is on the floor that it tends to sound muddier and more bassy and that if you raise and tilt it you will hear the highs much better.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Rockitman:

Well I have already purchased the amp.

*ouch*!! I apologize, Rockitman. I didn't intend to question your purchase. I thought you were still shopping.

 

for what it's worth, I'm just the dumb blonde on the forum. I ask the questions that these guys answered years ago.

 

All the best,

gs

[Rockitman]

No apologies necessary sue. I was already sitting on the "Buy Now" button but wanted to run this buy people here just to get a better feeling. I value and appreciate your questions as this clears many things up for me as well. I'm brand new to this forum and wish I'd known about it long ago. What a great treasure of knowledge abounds here. I was on the fence about either getting an amp or some powered speakers but price and convenience were the driving factors and I'm willing to take a shot with this Motion Sound unit.

It's nice to know that I have expandability built in here too. Like I said, if I ever get more involved with my public playing, I could always add some speakers and subwoofers to this amp too.

I'm very anxious to here what kind of stereo effect I am going to get from this guy by itself though. Come on Music123, hurry the dang order up!!

[drawback]

Cool Rockitman. Please post what you think of the KP200S - obviously there is lots of interest and differing opinions here - that's what the forum's for.

 

Best wishes

[Steve in KS]

Originally posted by Rockitman:

Steve, regarding your opinion on the piano sound through this amp, I'm wondering, are you raising this amp on a stand with a tilt? I'm told that if the amp is on the floor that it tends to sound muddier and more bassy and that if you raise and tilt it you will hear the highs much better.

Yes. I heard that too, so I got the amp off the floor (about 3 feet.) I've messed with the EQ, but I can't seem to improve it very much.

[gangsu]

Phew. When I saw your post, I was afraid you might be talking to me. I don't feel I can deal with any more professionals in one day!

 

Have a good one.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by drawback:

Each channel is a separate 100 watt amplifier with left and right inputs to match your L&R outputs on your keyboard - just as if you were plugging into the L&R inputs on your home stereo. There are four pairs of inputs, two pairs per channel.

It can get confusing because the word channel gets used all over the place in audio (and midi), you kind of have to figure out what it means partially by the context in which it's used.

 

There's no relationship between channels and amplifiers in those KP200s (not as far as being stereo goes), except for the fact that each instrument input is stereo. What constitutes a channel ("Channel One" and "Channel Two", each of which has two sets of stereo instrument inputs, and one of which also has a mic input) is the fact that they share the same volume control, "Expand" control, and EQ controls. There just happens to be two of them on the KP-200S. On the KP-100S, for instance, there's only one Channel (with two stereo instrument inputs and a mic input, a volume control, an Expand control, and EQ controls), but overall, it's still a stereo amplifier.

 

I think those Channels are somewhat equivalent to a sub-group on a mixer. Combo amps are still a combination of a mixer, amp, and speakers, but usually the mixer is simplified.

 

All of those stereo instrument inputs and Channels (aka subgroups) get eventually mixed down to a pair of master L & R outputs. The stereo part just means that the L master output goes to one amplifier/speaker and the R master output goes to another amplifier/speaker. On a slightly fancier mixer, the master L output would have its own volume control, and the master R output would have its own volume control, but on the KP's, there's only one Master Volume, which controls both L & R sides equally. That's typical for a stereo combo amp.

 

To confuse matters a bit more, if this were a bi-amped situation (which it's not), then the R master output would go to one set of bi-amps/speakers, and the L master output would got to another set of biamps/speakers. But I digress.

 

After you've wired up enough mixers, amps, speakers, and midi systems, this stuff starts to become clearer.

 

My big problem is still with basic electricity - ohms law and all that stuff, never could quite get my head around it. Maybe one of these days.

 

To answer my own earlier question about the KP's stereo instrument inputs, and how they deal with mono inputs (I looked at their web site), it seems that each of those stereo instrument inputs can also act as a mono input by plugging only into the Right side. In that case, the signal would get sent equally to both L & R Master Outputs (or so I would assume, not having actually tried one, but I can't imagine it sending a mono signal to one side only).

 

Regarding PA systems, in the old days, stage PA systems were typically mono (some still are, but stereo is more common now). There was just no need for stereo. Actually, I can argue that there is still no need for a PA system to be stereo - stereo was invented for home listening. How can you really hear a stereo image in a giant hall, when one speaker (or bank of speakers) might be 300 feet feet away, and not pointing right at you, while the other one might be 50 feet away, and pointing right at you? Stereo image is best when the listener is positioned equally from both speakers. In a concert situation, you can't give the same stereo image to each of the 5000 audience members, so why bother? It creates more problems than it solves. Much easier to keep everything mono.

 

As I mentioned in the past, this presents a problem for us players that want our personal on-stage monitors to be in stereo, but still want to feed a mono signal to front-of-house. Ideally, keyboards and keyboard mixers would provide a set of stereo outputs, and also a (summed) mono output. But they usually don't. Leaving us with a problem.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Guest User:

To answer my own earlier question about the stereo instrument inputs, and how they deal with mono inputs (I looked at their web site), it seems that each of those stereo instrument inputs can also act as a mono input by plugging only into the Right side. In that case, the signal would get sent equally to both L & R Master Outputs (or so I would assume, not having actually tried one, but I can't imagine it sending a mono signal to one side only).

This is terrific, Mr Anonymous I'm reading what you wrote - and reading it again - and again- and by the time my eyes finally close, by gosh I just might understand.

 

So, I take it, that you couldn't plug in 8 guitars afterall, only 4? - Not that I'm trying to raise a terribly important issue.

 

Either your post just doubled in size, or i'm seeing double.

 

I speak too soon. Sorry to interrupt.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by gangsu:

This is terrific, Mr Anonymous I'm reading what you wrote - and reading it again - and again- and by the time my eyes finally close, by gosh I just might understand.]

Thanks, I was hoping it would be helpful

 

So, I take it, that you couldn't plug in 8 guitars afterall, only 4?

If you wanted to use the inputs as mono inputs, then you could only plug in 4.

 

You *could* plug in 8 guitars, but in that case, the inputs would no longer be functioning as mono inputs, they'd be functioning as stereo inputs, so 4 of the guitars would go the master L output, and 4 of them would go to the master R output.

[gangsu]

yeah, I can see it now. My new act. Eight KEYTARS maybe.

[drawback]

That'd be 6 Keytars & a Flying V in stereo.

[resigned]

Originally posted by Rockitman:

Say I get the KP200S and later on I decide to spend more money for fuller sound, could I hook a couple of EONS through this amp? Would I need anything else?

I do this for a weekly outdoor gig I do - no, you don't need anything other than a couple of lo-z mic cables to plug the KP-200s into a pair of EONS - and this combo sounds fantastic! Put the KP-200s behind you (as recommended) and the EON's in front of you and you have a quasi-surround-sound effect from where you are sitting. BTW: the stereo "expand" effect works when using EON cabinets - gives the stereo spread a little added dimension if used in moderation.

 

I am sure you'll love your KP-200s - I know of noone who bought one that didn't.

 

To answer some other questions: no, the KP-200s isn't the highest fidelity amplification system in the world (it does sound better than ANY other dedicated keyboard amp I've ever heard!), and yes a full PA system usually will sound better. But the KP-200s sounds terrific and offers tremendous convenience over a traditional PA - far easier to setup and use and less cables/power to mess with. It's really best when used as a stage monitor/preamp/mixer and then you can take the direct outputs to the main mixer, but it does work as a stand-alone complete amp system very well. I play mostly as a soloist and quite often the KP-200s is all I use, but when I need more power then a pair of powered EON's with the KP-200s does the job nicely.

[tarkus]

I'm sold!

 

But..... this thing looks like it weighs a ton. Does it come with casters or tdo you have to fabricate a cart for this?

[daBowsa]

The amp is a little heavier than I expected - not the most convenient for carrying up and down small winding staircases, but I'd rather have the extra weight than the smaller KP100S. Its bigger than I extected, but still fits easily in any car back seat, front seat, and trunk I've tried.

 

Motion Sound provides instructions for mounting casters here