Let's talk about live fake horns

[DafDuc]

I joined a bond doing a lot of 70's funk, and they really want me covering horn parts. A lot of the material is stuff I played way back in the day, but I always avoided trying to sound like horns, cos I thought it was so cheesy sounding at the time. I'd take a horn line and convert it to an electric piano thing instead (not using an organ then), or maybe something like a synth fusion line, or a twin lead with a guitarist - I have an old tape of us doing I Wish with horn lines handled on guitar and String Ensemble (routed through an Axxe) - actually sounded cool. But nothing like horns.

 

Anyhow, these guys want the full deal - and they're picking some real tough horn tunes: What is Hip, Serpentine Fire, Pick Up the Pieces. Sheesh.

 

So if I'm gonna do this, I need to get some pointers from you guys. Tricks for stabs, single note lines, slides, mixed-articulation lines - all that stuff that horn players do so well, that I've rarely heard sound good on keys.

 

I'm trying to do this gig with just a QS-8 and a K-Station. I could haul my Prophet-5 or Odyssey out of the studio, but I'd prefer not to.

 

BTW, I do have a breath controller, an old BC-1, which I believe I could run into the pedal in on the QS. I'm thinking that might be a way to get keyboards and horns rolling at the same time - layer an EP or clav patch with a BC horn patch, then blow for the horn punches.

 

I distinctly remember a church trip when I was 16, listening to a live band play "Funky Nassau" at a fair, with that killer horn line handled expertly on a Hammond. Dunno if I can talk these guys into that kind of approach, though...

 

Thoughts, anyone?

 

Daf

[jkrobin]

I've been stuck with the same questions, Daf.

 

I've never really liked the idea of playing horn stabs on the keyboards, although I've found some excellent sax soundFonts in addition to horn sounds on the boards themselves.

 

It just always seemed so...well...cheesy; not a keyboard sound.

 

I've had some success replacing horn riffs with organ, but have no specific techniques for doing so.

 

I'll be interested to see what others contribute on the topic.

 

Kirby

[coyote]

The QS8 has good enough horn soundsm that you ought be able to do a respectable job.

Tip #1: Most of the horn patches in your QS probably route aftertouch to vibrato or something. For many tunes, you'll want to route it to volume instead; you can get a hint of 'realism' by starting horn section crescendos at slightly different moments for each finger in the chord.

Tip #2: Generally use the 'breath-y' sax samples when using sax in horn section stabs. If possible (that is, if you're not covering another part like piano), split the board and play the sax in one hand while the horns are in the other.

Tip #3: Don't layer horns if possible. Most tunes call for only a two or three piece horn section. Layering will sound much more fake than if you keep it simple.

[Anomaly]

I used to do the exact same thing back in those days.

 

I was in Chicago on business a couple of years ago and was listening to a blues band whose keyboard player had an O1W and did all the horn parts and it sounded great. I began to wonder if it wasn't all psychological on my part.

 

I am giging occasionally with a jam band where anything goes. We do some covers but the idea is to interpret, not emulate. It's a lot of fun--very spontaneous.

 

Anyway, we got called to do a last minute gig a couple of Sundays ago and my keyboard rig was in the band truck from my main band. All I had at home was my Dobro and a guitar. The band leader said, "Great, bring them and we'll see what happens." Long story short, I wound up doing the entire 3 hour gig with only the Dobro and the people absolutely loved it! In fact we booked a couple of nice paying Christmas parties out of it.

 

I don't think any song we played had a Dobro in the origninal song. We play mostly classic folk-rock stuff, The Band, Simon & Garfunkle, etc with a mix of jazz, blue and Alt. I never played Dobro on any of that stuff, but I had a blast. The other band members loved it. Just goes to show that sometimes it pays to lighten up a bit and enjoy playing once in a while.

 

I had an Allman Bros/Dead Tribute band pestering me to join them a while back and they were insistant on learning all my solos note for note as they were played on specific albums. Duane Allman and Jerry Garcia would roll over in their graves if they heard anyone doing that to their music. Talk about missing the point altogether.

 

But, some guys are like that and they just won't get it and you won't convince them. I would sit down and explain where you are coming from. If they want to give it a chance fine, if not fine. Nothing ventured...

[Mark Zeger]

I know this response circles around the answer you want, but...

 

If the band wants the sound of real horns live, can it afford to get 1 real horn player in the group? A live sax + you playing brass samples could sound amazing.

[Anomaly]

Originally posted by Mark Zeger:

I know this response circles around the answer you want, but...

 

If the band wants the sound of real horns live, can it afford to get 1 real horn player in the group? A live sax + you playing brass samples could sound amazing.

I 2nd that. I've done this and it is difficult to tell the difference even on recordings. That one real instrument creates the illusion tat they are all real. You can get some fat sounds that way. Something to consider.

[hermanjoe]

I play in a group were I will add some "brass" sounds with my keyboard. There are two horn players in the band, and you guys are right, it makes a huge difference. The real horns give the legit sound and I am just filling the voices out. I also think the Hammond Organ fills out the horns nicely. Of course if A keyboard player can get the job done, the band is smaller and everyone can make more cash at gigs. That's not the best way to judge sound, but it's unfortunatley the way things are. I also like how people like Stevie wonder used keyboard brass sound, but they were synth brass so it sounded hip. He also of course had a real horn section.

[Mark Zeger]

I saw James Taylor last year. His horn "section" was Lou Marini on sax and Walt Fowler playing trumpet with his right hand + a Motif with his left! It sounded great.

[Stephen Fortner]

I've always been a pretty harsh judge of the sound of my own attempts at playing sampled horns live. I'm lucky enough to be in a band with a sax and trumpet, so I get to back up what they're doing (usually with a sax sample or synth brass sound in the baritone range) and it sounds killer.

 

I have done it all myself on a number of occasions, and here's a trick I like: Layer a "real" brass sound with an analog-synth type one... in fact, a layer of "Hip Brass" and "OB-8 1" on the K2000 (or more recent K synths) is what I use for this when I need to. The synth patch has a square envelope, which although not authentic, cuts through and gives you the crisp articulation you need on tunes like "Serpentine Fire," and lessens the "wheeze factor" too common to sampled horns. Now for a mellower tune, like EWF's "Can't Hide Love," I'll keep the sample but change the synth sound... that same Kurzweil bank has something called "Analog Sawpad" that works great on that song.

 

Overall, the synth-real combination evokes the vibe of 70's funk really well, and is more emotionally satisfying (on a keyboard) than trying to get layers of samples going to precisely mimic all the horn section's parts. Every time I've tried that, it sounds more weird and experimental (think of David Byrne's "Knee Plays") than funky.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Another vote for organ- maybe mix in a little faux horns real tastefully?

[MIDIdiot]

Assuming the horn sounds are half decent enough (and with todays boards/smaplers, I'm sure they are), something happened to me two weeks ago that made me realize (a little sadly), that a live band isn't so much about the sound anyway. A booking agent listened to our demo (a very modest live recording with a DAW and no after processing) and was impressed enough to call me for a meeting. She assumed we had horn player(s) based on the CD. I said, I do the horns on my keys. She said, oh, it's not live. I corrected her by saying it is live, I use no seqencers, loops etc. All sounds are being generated simply by my playing the keys. After I realized, to her, there was no live horn player. It's more a visual appeal than anything else. It was kind of a downer for me. I previously thought hearing cool sounds, horns or whatever, come out of keyboards was cool to watch but I never thought about it objectively like that. The 1 horn player approach seems the way to go. By the way,

if you're interested, you can listen for yourself to Conga or Underneath it all on www.hip2soul.com. and let me know if you think the horn patches I'm using are half decent.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Stephen Fortner:

...here's a trick I like: Layer a "real" brass sound with an analog-synth type one...

 

Overall, the synth-real combination evokes the vibe of 70's funk really well, and is more emotionally satisfying (on a keyboard) than trying to get layers of samples going to precisely mimic all the horn section's parts.

When I have to play horn parts on keys, I do this as well.

 

This is second preference to having at least just one horn player to play the top line, and having me fill in underneath, if you must have the horn sound and cannot sub in organ or something blatantly synthy instead.

[Tusker]

I score some of the horn parts for our band, and sometimes, I will double them or fill up gaps.

 

Last sunday we didn't have saxes, and we had only one trombone, so I was using a baro-sax patch, mostly the bottom part of the alternating stabs in one song. The (real) trumpets covered the top stabs very well.

 

I've found the tips others have mentioned to be very helpful in the past.

 

The only tip I would add, is to sound musical rather than worrying about whether you sound real. As a keyboardist, this means I often:

 

- play sloppy downward glissandos at the end of a held note/chord (like a fall)

- bend upward into a note/chord

- do my own manual vibrato with the pitch bend lever (yes I know, the theory should be that you have different LFO with different depths for an ensemble feeling, but this way you can adjust on the fly)

- Do sloppy hammer-ons (is that what they are called?) D# to E F# to G, etc

- Try move the voices like a real choir/ensemble, not for reality but because its more musical. I use standard voicings like drop 3 and I concentrate on getting the top line and bottom line to move musically at a minimum.

 

Nobody will object if you enjoy yourself.

 

Hoping this helps,

 

Jerry

[b_3guy]

Good subject. I have to do horn parts in the band I play with on the weekends & I do it with my QS-8. Fortunately, one of the guitar players has a midi pickup & a synth to pick up some of them. The guitar does a much better job at faking horns because the build of a plucked string better reflects what a horn does. Punch, build then fades. On a keyboard it doesn't seem as natural. I think the actual patch quality is not important. I just pick my best brassy one. What is important is the notes. As long as the right notes & voicings are played your fake will be passable. The patch I use on the QS-8 is the "Pop Brass". Also the horns will sound more realistic if you can do the swells with a volume pedal. My QS-8 does not respond to midi volume data very smoothly, so use a straight volume pedal. I've been complimented on my horn lines & believe it or not in the previous band that I was playing in I did all the horns in What Is Hip. The guy said "Good job. I was waiting for you to f@#k it up, but you didn't. Good job."

 

Good luck. Here's a couple links to some fake horns I've done with Reason.

www.seagull-net.com/Uploads/WinBig.mp3

www.seagull-net.com/Uploads/latin1.mp3

[Bill H.]

Yep, I also do this...on an XP-60. The best sound I've found is the simplest. I took the best solo tenor sax waveform the unit has, and put the best solo trumpet wave an octave above it at reduced volume, and combined them with no effects so it comes out in your face. I had to roll my own patch because every preset was too much. Both waves come from the Session expansion board. Runs played one note at a time staccato sound pretty good in a band context. I use synth brass for all pads...hey, that's the way it's been done since the Prophet 5, I'm not changin' tradition!

[DafDuc]

You guys are the greatest!!!

 

I've had good luck with horn lines in Acid, but of course that doesn't translate to live very well, unless I were to sample the whole line - something to consider, but no sampler board right now. Maybe later.

 

I like the layering ideas - I'm considering midi-ing the 2 boards together, if its possible to have the KS send on a channel that will trigger only the horns on the QS - I think a variation on the QS's User-00 Mix should support that?

 

And b_3guy, I agree that Pop Brass is an excellent setting - lots of stuff fell into place.

 

Coyote - wouldn't that volume thing require polyphonic aftertouch? I don't think the QS does that - in fact, I'm not sure it does regular aftertouch. I've never explored that. Might have to pull my KX-88 out of mothballs - but it's $500+ to make it serviceable again.

 

Jerry, do you bend up from a lower note? Or bend down from the target note before striking? And I'm the king of sloppy hammer-ons, whether they're called for or not, LOL.

 

I was having a little luck on the KS playing with the attack and release sliders, but of course that took my other hand off the keys. Still, when it worked, it was cool - could sorta fade in to a note, then shorten the attack for stabs. Gotta develop the technique some, I guess.

 

As far as the live sax player - I'm all for that. But I'm the new guy, so I'll prolly wait a month or six before I start mouthin off...

 

Thanks again, everybody! These are great --- keep em comin!

 

Daf

[Steve123]

Hey Daf,

 

Good Advice so far.

 

I have a QS7.1 and a JV1010 that I use for horn sounds. On the QS 7.1 I use a version of four horns that I edited. Generally, Id have a trumpet/sax in unison (or sax an octave lower like Bill H, suggested - and maybe trombone as well). In the band I play in we do only a few tunes that require horn parts and I have found that economy is the key. Get the top line right and add notes to the voicing sparingly. I have aftertouch control volume for swells and the mod wheel for vibrato. Adjust the attack time and filters to respond naturally to velocity.

 

The advice about getting a sax player is sound. It would be very difficult for me to imagine playing the organ/piano/clav/etc. lines on some of the tunes you mentioned and cover the horn parts convincingly as well. Doubling a real sax with an ersatz trumpet when necessary would sound great and get you a lot closer.

 

Good luck, Steve

[EricG]

One trick I used when I played the KX-88, I used a breath controller set to volume, a very intuitive way of controlling it. In addition to just controlling the volume with Breath Controller it simultaneously controlled the filter, to make the sound a little brighter at high volumes. Worked quite good :-)

[Tusker]

Originally posted by DafDuc:

Jerry, do you bend up from a lower note? Or bend down from the target note before striking? And I'm the king of sloppy hammer-ons, whether they're called for or not, LOL.

I give the joystick a little shove to the left (pitch down), release it just before I stab notes with the right, the spring brings it back. It's only on certain stabby notes.

 

Originally posted by DafDuc:

I was having a little luck on the KS playing with the attack and release sliders, but of course that took my other hand off the keys. Still, when it worked, it was cool - could sorta fade in to a note, then shorten the attack for stabs. Gotta develop the technique some, I guess.

For modulation and real time control, this is what I'm using. YMMV:

 

I've got a pedal with some volume and opening of the filter on it, so I can do swells. I also increase the resonance just a tad with the pedal. On envelopes I program a blippy attack that mellows out quickly, then the pedal can bring them up if I want it. I have attack time on the filter and amp being modulated by velocity, if my hand strikes the key slowly, the envelope kicks in more slowly, hiding some of the natural attack of the sample (grunt, puff). I also have release time modulated by release velocity to allow staccato/legato releases. It's a compromise patch, not as blippy as the fastest horns, not as legato as the most lyrical, but a bit of variation.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[mate stubb]

I have just recently had to come to grips with this problem as well. I'm doing some Steely Dan and AWB horn parts in a funk/rock band.

 

I layer a ROM horn patch as well, but to a virtual analog sax in the Yamaha PLG-150VL board. I also use a breath controller so that you can do authentic swells and tongue articulations. It makes an amazing difference in the illusion. The host keyboard is a Yamaha S-90.

 

Performance techniques are important. I set up a foot pedal to bend pitch down when pressed, and press it down before I play a chord, then draw it back so that the pitch slides up into the chord. This emulates the pitch bender technique mentioned earlier. Remember that horns typically cannot bend up from a note, only down. The virtual analog helps in this department by modelling that behavior too - if I bend too far on a trumpet patch, it will actually break in pitch and drop down to the next "harmonic" of the modelled tube. This is great for trumpet rips and falls. When you combine pitch slides from a footpedal with breath control, and judicious temporary addition of vibrato, it starts to fool you.

 

Further refinements that I want to try: getting a second or even a third VL card, and mapping it(them) to different sections of the keyboard. Then you can play a trumpet and sax separately, and control which voice stays on top. Set up each to respond slightly differently to the footpedal, so that when you bend, things go slightly out of tune. In fact, it would sound more authentic if the notes you play are not strictly in tune to begin with. Maybe use a MIDI tuning scale to make some notes slightly flat or sharp, or experiment with tiny amounts of random pitch change. I'll bet that just two accurate parts will sound better than big blocks of rompler horns. It would still be hard to cover Tower of Power, however. That is the ultimate acid test.

 

Fortunately I was a trumpet player for years, so I still have a little bit of wind control left!!

 

The other problem with all this is, once you start taking two hands plus breath and feet to control things, is what else are you leaving out - that's right, all the keyboard parts!

[tarkus]

2nd vote for midi-guitar interpretation.

 

I had played sveral tunes as a midi-guitarist with one of my old bands.

My rig was a Casio MG-500 midi guitar (you'd be surprised at how well this thing played and tracked) midied up to a Yamaha TG-100 (yuck) - the guitar and TG were fed into a Crate 212 guitar amp.

Usually required to play organ beds or sicko-leads. Most fun was Cosmic Debris by Zappa - I would layer organ, Power Brass, xylophone and my guitar's own voice; eq the brass up front with the organ and the xylophone 'bedded down' - and run a separate out for the guitar. Sometimes I would just use the brass. It was close to brass dynamics as you can get but the midi-guitar had some glitches, nothing a drunken crowd would notice.

 

Another favorite was Changes - Buddy Miles - that was all brass and Esus7 or sus9 chords on a short gliss on the accents went over tastefully.

 

When my finances straighten out - I'll get a Brian Moore iGuitar. Till then..........

[coyote]

tarkus - how'd you get the Ruth Underwood repetitive-xylophone thing on Cosmik Debris without making the other instruments do the same thing?

 

DafDuc - My QS7.1 has poly aftertouch. I don't know whether earlier QS series boards have it; if not, I'm sorry for getting your hopes up.

[tarkus]

Originally posted by coyote:

tarkus - how'd you get the Ruth Underwood repetitive-xylophone thing on Cosmik Debris without making the other instruments do the same thing?

 

I didn't -(believe me, the other musicians wanted me to pull this off as well) I just threw it in there for the heck of it. In most gigs I would use only brass - the xylophone (alone) is tough to track via - guitar/midi.

I did experiment at home with my Kawai K-3 - I would set the lfo, frequency, etc to mimic the xylo- rolls but it sounded cheesy, and the addition of a keyboard defeated the compact portability demands of the gig.

[DafDuc]

Coyote, I've got an 8.1, so if you got it, I do too. I read the manual last night, it mentioned aftertouch, but I didn't get poly from it - I'll read more carefully tonight.

 

Thanks!

 

Daf

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by mate_stubb:

I layer a ROM horn patch as well, but to a virtual analog sax in the Yamaha PLG-150VL board. I also use a breath controller so that you can do authentic swells and tongue articulations. It makes an amazing difference in the illusion. The host keyboard is a Yamaha S-90.

 

Performance techniques are important. I set up a foot pedal to bend pitch down when pressed, and press it down before I play a chord, then draw it back so that the pitch slides up into the chord. This emulates the pitch bender technique mentioned earlier. Remember that horns typically cannot bend up from a note, only down. The virtual analog helps in this department by modelling that behavior too - if I bend too far on a trumpet patch, it will actually break in pitch and drop down to the next "harmonic" of the modelled tube. This is great for trumpet rips and falls. When you combine pitch slides from a footpedal with breath control, and judicious temporary addition of vibrato, it starts to fool you.

 

Further refinements that I want to try: getting a second or even a third VL card, and mapping it(them) to different sections of the keyboard. Then you can play a trumpet and sax separately, and control which voice stays on top. Set up each to respond slightly differently to the footpedal, so that when you bend, things go slightly out of tune. In fact, it would sound more authentic if the notes you play are not strictly in tune to begin with. Maybe use a MIDI tuning scale to make some notes slightly flat or sharp, or experiment with tiny amounts of random pitch change. I'll bet that just two accurate parts will sound better than big blocks of rompler horns. It would still be hard to cover Tower of Power, however. That is the ultimate acid test.

 

Fortunately I was a trumpet player for years, so I still have a little bit of wind control left!!

 

The other problem with all this is, once you start taking two hands plus breath and feet to control things, is what else are you leaving out - that's right, all the keyboard parts!

I am doing something very similar. I am currently using a VL1 with Motif brass. The Motif brass are also controlled via BC. With the VL1 you have two voices and I have a number of combinations of trumpet/sax. It's very cool in that it will always track, for example, low note sax, high note trumpet. I use either delayed or aftertouch vibrato on the VL horns as they produce a much more realistic vibrato than do the Motifs. I haven't tried the various pitch bend ideas but could see how it can work well. The Motif tends to make the sounds a little fuller and more realistic timbre-wise.

 

One thing I've been searching for for years is a device I remember seeing in the early 1970s. It was essentially a brass horn attached to a speaker/horn driver. It stood on a stand like a tall mic stand. I believe it was made by Wurlitzer. Theater organists have had these for years and this was the combo version. I would love to hear what the VL or even ROMpler horns would sound like through this. Maybe with the right EQ it could sound great. It doesn't seem like it would be difficult to reproduce but would probably require some experimenting.

 

Busch.

[dontae]

I'm a pro studio trumpet player who programs, and I agree that one real instrument or two is best in a live situation. The best trumpet I've heard that sounds like "me" stacked is Triton SFZ Brass, and triton sax ensemble under. The natural volume crescendo in the preset comes off as real in a track. Hell sometimes in the studio I put a fake horn under my stacks to give it bite! Well what do you know!

Maybe you could sample it at Guitar center to see what make sup that preset.

[felix.]

I thought Howard Jones used to do a great job with this back during his first two albums.

 

Wonder if there was a Keyboard article that talked about how he did it?

[NYKeys]

I am still new to synth playing and not sure if this will work but will try it when I get in front of my boards

 

How about trying this get a brass sound on your lower board.

 

Midi out to your other board and transpose it say 1 to 2 octives up or down.

 

Now when you play your lower synth it should transmit that signal to your other board an octive up or down.

[MurMan]

There were some suggestions earlier to play "sloppy". Reminds me of a true experience.

 

Years ago when I was new to synths, I played some trumpet parts for a Christmas Eve program. The Roland XP-80 I played had a nice solo trumpet patch that really cut through. By the time the third performance came around, I was pretty tired and I definitely met the "sloppy" criteria.

 

Afterwards, the music director said he really liked how realistic the trumpet sounded. So, I asked him if it was the patch and he said, "No, it was because trumpet players miss a lot of notes." This promply ended my short career in the horn section.

[eric]

I'm lucky to have a horn section in my band and have never been a fan of trying to pull off horn section sounds with keyboards.

 

I like the Prophet and Oberheim synth brass sounds, as well as using Hammond sounds. I remembered that this topic came up before and found this previous post that has some of the same type of responses, but other interesting nuggets as well:

 

Rompler horns...

 

Regards,

Eric