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mapping Note Off Velocity


bg

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I recently bought a Kurzweil MIDIboard, and I want to make use of its Note Off Velocity function. Other than turning notes off, the synths I want to control don't use Note Off Velocity. I'd like to be able to on-the-fly copy and map this data to a Continuous Controller. I use Digital Performer for realtime remapping, but Note Off Velocity is not supported. Any ideas how I could accomplish this on a Mac? Seems like MAX could, but it looks complicated to me. Thanks for any suggestions.
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i'm pretty sure that 'midi solutions' box won't do what you want. note on velocity and range are listed among the options, but not note off.

 

in my experience, your modules (and sequencer), and not the board are the problem. the module has to be able to take RV info and translate it into a 'trigger' to control something.

 

for instance, in modules that support it, you can program it to control filt freq or resonance, lfo speed or amplitude, sync or pwm functions and so on.

 

when the module recieves RV info, it comes in the form of one number (from 1 to 127) just like velocity. it's not a continuous stream of data like a mod or pitch wheel.

 

say you programmed RV in a matrix to speed up an lfo upon release. constant lfo speed with note held down is 5 and you have programmed RV to speed it up to maximum. depending on the implementation, a very fast release should give you a high number (over 100 and approaching 127).

this will speed up the lfo towards its max.

a slow release would give you a lesser speed up.

you have to have a long enough amp env release to be able to hear this effect, but this can also be programmed with RV.

 

some are also capable of negative numbers for modulation, so in this case the results would be reversed.

 

what modules/keyboards are you trying to control?

 

very few are capable of responding to RV.

the only ones i know of are alesis, kurzweil, access virus, and waldorf.

there may be others, but i'm not aware of them.

 

as for sequencers - i use cubase which can record RV (i think logic can, also). i tried cakewalk for a bit and dumped it because it can't record RV - useless to me.

 

if you could record RV in your sequencer, it still would not do a lot of good unless your modules can respond to it.

yes, you could map it to refer to discete numbers on a mod wheel or pedal, but what would it refer to? for instance, say you release C3 slowly and get a RV reading of 10 or 15 for that note.

the note is already released, but if you could map it to a mod wheel controlling a filter, you may be able to affect whatever notes are being held down, but you could also just do that with the mod wheel.

 

the point of RV is that it can affect individual notes AFTER they are released. in the example above, the filter would rise 'on that C3 note' after the key has been released.

IMO - RV is unique, can't be replaced by other techniques and is worth seeking out - good luck.

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MB, Interesting modulation ideas in your post. Thank you. :D

 

The Nord Modular accepts RV. Dunno about the Leads. The Roland romplers accept RV, but I suspect only in the keyboard versions (not part of the midi spec). And they are hardwired only to control envelope release time. Good for staccato versus legato control in clavs and pianos though. :thu:

 

Jerry

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Originally posted by mildbill:

i'm pretty sure that 'midi solutions' box won't do what you want. note on velocity and range are listed among the options, but not note off.

 

in my experience, your modules (and sequencer), and not the board are the problem. the module has to be able to take RV info and translate it into a 'trigger' to control something.

 

for instance, in modules that support it, you can program it to control filt freq or resonance, lfo speed or amplitude, sync or pwm functions and so on.

 

when the module recieves RV info, it comes in the form of one number (from 1 to 127) just like velocity. it's not a continuous stream of data like a mod or pitch wheel.

Yes, I understand. Releasing a key sends a single RV value. This is analogous to a switch controller, like CC#64. i.e. a continuous controller sending a single value.

say you programmed RV in a matrix to speed up an lfo upon release. constant lfo speed with note held down is 5 and you have programmed RV to speed it up to maximum. depending on the implementation, a very fast release should give you a high number (over 100 and approaching 127).

this will speed up the lfo towards its max.

a slow release would give you a lesser speed up.

you have to have a long enough amp env release to be able to hear this effect, but this can also be programmed with RV.

 

some are also capable of negative numbers for modulation, so in this case the results would be reversed.

 

what modules/keyboards are you trying to control?

CS-80V and Oasys-PCI, for example. Both allow CC's to control functions like what you described above.

very few are capable of responding to RV.

the only ones i know of are alesis, kurzweil, access virus, and waldorf.

there may be others, but i'm not aware of them.

Yes, that's why I want to map RV to CC, as CC has become a standard for controlling softsynths.

as for sequencers - i use cubase which can record RV (i think logic can, also). i tried cakewalk for a bit and dumped it because it can't record RV - useless to me.

 

if you could record RV in your sequencer, it still would not do a lot of good unless your modules can respond to it.

Agreed. My modules don't respond to RV, so I don't care about recording it.

yes, you could map it to refer to discete numbers on a mod wheel or pedal, but what would it refer to? for instance, say you release C3 slowly and get a RV reading of 10 or 15 for that note.

the note is already released, but if you could map it to a mod wheel controlling a filter, you may be able to affect whatever notes are being held down, but you could also just do that with the mod wheel.

 

the point of RV is that it can affect individual notes AFTER they are released. in the example above, the filter would rise 'on that C3 note' after the key has been released.

Our use of the term "map" may be causing a misunderstanding. I want to change (transform) a Release Velocity value into a Continuous Controller value before it hits the synth. Strictly speaking, I want to copy the RV data and transform the copy into CC data. (The RV data must still be intact, as it's necessary to turn sounding notes off!)

 

I mentioned realtime remapping in DP, but I should have made clear that the remapping happens inside of DP first, then the remapped data is echoed out to the target device. If you already understood this, sorry to hammer on it.

IMO - RV is unique, can't be replaced by other techniques and is worth seeking out - good luck.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.
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Originally posted by mildbill:

hey bg: i forgot to ask - how do you like the midi-board (besides the RV situation)?

I like it! It makes me want to play the piano, which is a wonderful thing. I have a Yamaha P-100 which I have always liked. It still has a pleasant action, but after practicing on the MB it feels a bit shallow and unresponsive. I also like the MB's keyboard response sliders. They're right there for immediate tweaking. Very intuitive.

 

I'm moving my stuff to another room and haven't hooked up the computer yet, so I haven't tested poly AT with the CS-80V.

 

I was very fortunate to find this MIDIboard. The original owner received it as an artist endorsement from Kurzweil. She never played it and it stayed in the box in her garage. It shipped to me in the original box, and as the ebay ad claimed, is in virtually perfect condition. I feel blessed.

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i think i understand what you're getting at.

 

set up a 'map' or a 'conversion' table in DP behorehand that would 'transform' a RV value into a value for another controller.

 

it's one of those frustarting things you run into that would have been very simple to design into a sequencer if someone would have thought of it.

 

in cubase, you can transform almost any controller into any other one, but RV is not included.

 

i guess people think in terms of RV as being 'note data' instead of 'controller data'.

 

still, it could get messy if you're playing fast with a lot of big chords, because every time you let up on a key, you're sending out a number which is meant to refer 'specifically' to that key.

 

you'd think something like this would be especially easy to design into a softsynth, but i don't think i've run across a softsynth yet that can use RV in a mod matrix the way it's supposed to be used.

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Originally posted by mildbill:

i think i understand what you're getting at.

 

set up a 'map' or a 'conversion' table in DP behorehand that would 'transform' a RV value into a value for another controller.

Bingo!

it's one of those frustarting things you run into that would have been very simple to design into a sequencer if someone would have thought of it.

My thoughts exactly.

in cubase, you can transform almost any controller into any other one, but RV is not included.

 

i guess people think in terms of RV as being 'note data' instead of 'controller data'.

 

still, it could get messy if you're playing fast with a lot of big chords, because every time you let up on a key, you're sending out a number which is meant to refer 'specifically' to that key.

You're right, I didn't consider that. Perhaps it would only work in a monophonic situation.

you'd think something like this would be especially easy to design into a softsynth, but i don't think i've run across a softsynth yet that can use RV in a mod matrix the way it's supposed to be used.

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bg: i don't want to beat a dead horse either, but i've thought about it and think i can describe why i don't believe you'll get the results you're looking for.

continuous controllers affect all notes on a given midi channel.

 

the reason why release velocity and polypressure are unique and sought out by some people is that they DON'T affect all notes on a midi channel.

 

they are specific to the individual notes being held down or the notes being released and thus give you greatly increased control over your playing and expressiveness.

 

if you really want to use your midi board to the fullest, i'd urge you to get a module (or keyboard), that is capable of responding to these unique capabilities.

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Originally posted by mildbill:

bg:if you really want to use your midi board to the fullest, i'd urge you to get a module (or keyboard), that is capable of responding to these unique capabilities.

You convinced me. After getting my pea brain around the concept, I discovered the K2000 I've been playing for nine years transmits and responds to RV! When I played this patch the scales fell from my eyes. I'll have to try the presets again and see what I've been missing. Thanks for persisting.
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OK! you've got the k2000 (alesis and access are much easier to set up, but try this) - set up a patch, then go into the amp env area.

make it so it has a long sustain.

 

then go into the env control area (i'm assuming it's similar to the k2600). you have to play with the settings a lot, but once you have it set up, you can use it on all your patches.

it will take some playing around, but when you get the settings right, you will have a short release when you play fast and a long release when you slowly let up on the keys.

once you've got the amp part set up, the sky's the limit.

 

use RV to control whatever parameter sounds trick.

sometimes postive values will get you where you want to go and sometimes negative will work better.

just depends what you want to do with it.

have fun and when you see what a valuable asset RV is, help spread the word. maybe the japanese manufacturers will finally get a clue.

 

(i suspect there may be a few other kurzweil users (and alesis, access, oberheim, waldorf, etc.) who don't know what they're missing).

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just burned and loaded your program (modutrix) - nice - hard to believe it's a string keymap, isn't it?

 

try this - load the sound, leave everything like it is, but go into 'envelope control'.

 

at the top of the first column you'll see 'adjust' and below it are 'attack', 'decay' 'release', etc.

 

set 'release' to its minimum - (0.018X) and try it again - you should hear a much enhanced reaction to your release velocity.

 

that's about it - have a blast.

 

also, thanks to whoever made the 'modutrix' patch.

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Originally posted by mildbill:

when the module recieves RV info, it comes in the form of one number (from 1 to 127) just like velocity. it's not a continuous stream of data like a mod or pitch wheel.

Exactly right.

 

As noted above, release velocity from the MIDIboard (and, I believe, most other Kurz boards) sends a different hex data string than note-off info.

 

When I worked at Kurzweil ijn the late '80s, we had people trying to use a Yamaha MEP4 (MIDI Event Processor) to transpose notes...they were getting stuck notes because only the note-on info was processed and not the note off info, because instead of just transmitting a similar hex string as the note on with value >0 for the note on and a value of 0 for the note-off, the release velocity transmits a different hex string with a value >0 for the note off.

 

Originally posted by mildbill:

if you really want to use your midi board to the fullest, i'd urge you to get a module (or keyboard), that is capable of responding to these unique capabilities.

Yep.

 

dB

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