Kurzweil 2661 delivered. first look.

[Markyboard]

Originally posted by SoundMeister:

Originally posted by mildbill:

look what people are willing to pay for the mono moog thing.

!

Speaking of the mono MOOG thing, I just downloaded the lastest OS 2.0 released last weekend for the Voyager. This thing is finally doing all the things I hoped for. With the new pot mapping function (sounds like a Cheech & Chong movie), almost every front panel knob can me mapped as a contol source or destination. Velocity mapped to Master Volume actually allows the thing to be played dynamically - FINALLY!!! I know every other synth in the world does this now but to finally have a mini that does this...

Basically the mod routing itself is worth a new OS by itself. Every pot now transmits it's own cc although I havent used this yet. There's additional utility functions for comparing an edited sound to any preset, and naming programs by using the keybed for data entry (this was a nightmare before and though still not nearly as easy as a keypad it is better). There's additional mod bus shaping, external gate and touch pad sources. And finally the midi is much improved as before it was pretty much useless for recording into a sequencer with all the stuck on notes. Cool

[mildbill]

ya, Voyager - that was it.

anyways, i was just suggesting that there's a lot more to a synth than polyphony.

[Markyboard]

Originally posted by mildbill:

ya, Voyager - that was it.

anyways, i was just suggesting that there's a lot more to a synth than polyphony.

[SoundMeister]

...i was just suggesting that there's a lot more to a synth than polyphony.

Got it. For example it's quite possible that just the wind controller feature on the VA1 will help us rationalize the purchase.

 

~Peter Schouten

Pyamid Sound Productions

[joegerardi]

I'm jumping in on this thread late, but I had to add...

 

I'm not surprised that the keybed sucks. Such is the nature of music today. Far too many people are using sequencers, computers, etc., as the main interface to a keyboard, that the keybed itself has almost become redundant. There has been a degradation of keybeds over the last 10 or 15 years or so, mainly because people don't really care what kind of keybed is there, because a lot of "musicians" aren't friggin' playing them. Why add a more expensive keybed when a large part of your sales demographic could care less?

 

I first noticed it on my QS7. It has a Fatar keybed, and as it sits right above my KX76, I can see that the keys are wider than the KX, and the action cannot compare. I can play much faster and cleaner on the KX. Bear in mind that the Fatar is considered one of today's better actions. It actually got to the point that I buy everything in a module today, because I can't stand the actions. I tried a Motif ES (61) about a month ago. The action sucked. Roland, IMHO has always had pretty crappy actions. Their keys were spongy and shorter than everything else. The Korg N1 88-keybed was ludicrous!

 

I believe that the last truly good action on keyboards was the keybeds of the DX7, which was used in a lot of various keyboards, including the Korg M1, T1, KX76.

 

..Joe

[SoundMeister]

I'm not surprised that the keybed sucks.

Joe, it's not clear to me if there is a keybed problem with the K2661. If you check Max's original post, he was apparently looking for a Steinway piano weighted keys action even though it had been announced at NAMM that the K2661 was going to have unweighted synth-style keys with monophonic aftertouch.

 

This is not a "quality" issue. It's a matter of reality not matching epectations. This happens a lot.

 

~Peter Schouten

Pyramid Sound Productions

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by joegerardi:

I believe that the last truly good action on keyboards was the keybeds of the DX7, which was used in a lot of various keyboards, including the Korg M1, T1, KX76

Strangely enough, that action is also used on the Motif, which you expressed your distaste for earlier in your post.

[Mike Martin]

I played the K2661 today. The key mechanism seemed to be identical to the action used in the Andromeda, QS6.2 and the Voyager (all Fatar actions).

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Mike Martin:

I played the K2661 today. The key mechanism seemed to be identical to the action used in the Andromeda, QS6.2 and the Voyager (all Fatar actions).

Is it the semi-weighted TP9-type keybed, or the unweighted hollow-key type keybed?

 

dB

[Mike Martin]

It was a TP9. It had weights under the keys.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Mike Martin:

It was a TP9. It had weights under the keys.

Hmmmm - then I'm not sure what folks are complaining about. That's a pretty decent keybed, IMO.

 

From the negative feedback, I was guessing it was like the one in the old K2000...

 

dB

[Max Ventura]

no no no Dave, that's not it. Unless Kurz is shipping different keybeds overseas than they do in the US, that action (and I can check it right now, since my customer has not picked up the item yet) is identical to Korg's PA-80 arranger, and also to, let me check....FRIGGIN' YAMMY CS2X!

I also have a Motif 6 classic in store. That has a neater, much more definite action, that action where you actually feel some resistance to fingerpressure before the key drops with a clank. Just barely short of a DX7 action. You can comfortably play easy piano parts on that keybed.

However, on factory specs, all of those keyboardsa are rated as "unweighted synth action".

Also, I live close to the Fatar factory, and I know their product: they market two different synth action 61 keys keybeds: one is plain, the second offers "resistance on pressure similar to the keys of a liturgic organ", and I know that they sell both of them to the same customers.

You can find them on their master keyboards SL-61 and SL-161, respectively.

[Mike Martin]

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

no no no Dave, that's not it. Unless Kurz is shipping different keybeds overseas than they do in the US, that action (and I can check it right now, since my customer has not picked up the item yet) is identical to Korg's PA-80 arranger, and also to, let me check....FRIGGIN' YAMMY CS2X!

Max,

The K2661 is most definitely a Fatar TP9 key action. Dave and I call it "semi-weighted" because of the reinforcement under that key. Compare it to a Korg Karma or Triton LE which is essentially the same action without that extra weight.

 

As far as I know the TP9 action is used in -

Moog Voyager

Waldorf Q+

Alesis QS

Andromeda

 

Probably some others too... Dave?

 

Also I'll confirm in the morning but I highly doubt the CS2X is anything other than a Yamaha action...though probably not the same one as the Motif (DX, EX, SY).

[joegerardi]

Originally posted by Jeebus:

Originally posted by joegerardi:

I believe that the last truly good action on keyboards was the keybeds of the DX7, which was used in a lot of various keyboards, including the Korg M1, T1, KX76

Strangely enough, that action is also used on the Motif, which you expressed your distaste for earlier in your post.

Jeebus:

I have to disagree. The physical keys are different, (the surface felt rougher, almost more porous than the DX's) the throw was definitely shorter, it was not as responsive, and there was less resistance. Unless you're talking about the DX7II: I have no experience with that, so maybe Yammie changed their keybeds in the later model.

 

..Joe

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by joegerardi:

Jeebus:

I have to disagree. The physical keys are different, (the surface felt rougher, almost more porous than the DX's) the throw was definitely shorter, it was not as responsive, and there was less resistance. Unless you're talking about the DX7II: I have no experience with that, so maybe Yammie changed their keybeds in the later model.

 

..Joe

Hmm, I'm almost 100% certain that the Yamaha FS action (found on Motif) was used in both the DX7 and the DX7II, as well as every Korg workstation from the M1 to the Triton.

 

As for the rougher texture of the Motif keys, maybe your DX keys were once the same way, but have just been worn down over the years?

 

Maybe Mike Martin could chime in here and clear it up for us. (hint, hint)

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

From the negative feedback, I was guessing it was like the one in the old K2000...

 

dB

I hate to agree with you about this, Dave.

 

I had an original DX7 before I got the K2000. What a disappointment!

 

Is There Gas In The Car?

[Mike Martin]

Originally posted by Jeebus:

Originally posted by joegerardi:

Jeebus:

I have to disagree. The physical keys are different, (the surface felt rougher, almost more porous than the DX's) the throw was definitely shorter, it was not as responsive, and there was less resistance. Unless you're talking about the DX7II: I have no experience with that, so maybe Yammie changed their keybeds in the later model.

 

..Joe

Hmm, I'm almost 100% certain that the Yamaha FS action (found on Motif) was used in both the DX7 and the DX7II, as well as every Korg workstation from the M1 to the Triton.

 

As for the rougher texture of the Motif keys, maybe your DX keys were once the same way, but have just been worn down over the years?

 

Maybe Mike Martin could chime in here and clear it up for us. (hint, hint)

I'll see what I can find out, but I have the understanding that Yamaha has used the FS action since the original DX7. Maybe there was a change in the type of plastic used for the keys?

[Max Ventura]

I had the DX7,

then I had the Korg M1,

then I had the Yamaha SY 85,

then the WX 5,

then the Trinity,

then the Triton,

then the EX 5,

then the CS6X,

then the Triton LE,

then the Motif 6,

then the Motif ES6,

then the Kurz 2661.

I remember clearly that the DX 7, the M1, the SY85, the Triton classic, the Trinity, and the Motifs had MORE OR LESS the same type of action as the DX 7, although possibly the DX 7 was even more definite in its "clanking", while the WX 5 didn't, the EX 5 and the CS 6X ALMOST did, the Triton LE didn't, and the 2661 doesn't.

 

I use the words MORE OR LESS and ALMOST because I am not as specific as you scientists are, I don't measure lenght of the keys or whatever, but I guess I only need to touch a chord to find out...

[Mike Martin]

Max,

We're not saying that the K2661 has a Yamaha FS action. It has a Fatar TP9. The other instruments I listed above also have the Fatar TP9.

 

The Triton LE is a Fatar action too, but a less expensive action from Fatar, not a TP9. Its closer to what was in the original K2000.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Mike Martin:

We're not saying that the K2661 has a Yamaha FS action. It has a Fatar TP9. The other instruments I listed above also have the Fatar TP9.

It's easy to identify the TP9 - just put your finger under any key. If you feel a plastic mass filling the inside of the key that has three holes in it (the middle hole being slightly larger than the first and third hole), it's a TP9.

 

If the key is hollow (i.e. you can touch the direct underside of the playing surface) then it's not.

 

dB

[kad]

Originally posted by Jeebus:

There's also the fact that Kurzweil are entering the VA market a little late in the game, and have already lost a lot of potential customers because people either already have their VAs, or feel more comfortable sticking to the tried and true manufacturers of VAs.

This is a great point! Something else to consider is that VA technology has been around for over a decade and is fairly mature at this point. Many people have come to the realization over the last 10 years that real analog just simply sounds MUCH, MUCH better. Personally, my ears are VERY tired of the VA sound, but I will NEVER grow tired of the sound of a Prophet 5, or a Mini, or an Odyssey, or a Juno 60, or an OBXa, etc... IMHO, there is just no comparison - real analog just has a living, breathing, breathtaking character to it that no VA has ever come close to capturing.

 

Consider the fact that a Prophet 5, Jupiter 8, OB Xpander or Rhodes Chroma can be found today in the $1000 - $1500 range. Some lower end but still very good sounding, capable synths like the JX8-P, DW-8000, Matrix 1000 and Juno 60 routinely sell for around $200!!! I paid $300 for my MKS-70.

 

I suspect that we will see a significant trend toward real analog, and I'm afraid that Kurzweil might have missed the VA boat!! On the other hand, if they implement the VA-1 as brilliantly as they have the K series, they may have a killer new synth that transcends typical "VA" boundaries and stands on its own as a unique and viable creative tool. Time will tell...

 

Kirk

[kad]

Regarding the key action thing...

 

I've owned an original DX-7 for 16 years, and I owned a Motif 7 for a while. As far as I can tell, the actions are identical in every way (and I am VERY sensitive to key action). If there are any differences, they are extremely subtle.

 

Regarding the K2661, I got the opportunity to play a beta version of this board. At that point, the action was identical to the original K2000 (I own a K2vx). I was massively disappointed - I was planning on buying a K2661 and this was a total show-stopper for me!!! However, based on Mike's and Dave's comments, it appears that Kurzweil may have upgraded to a better key bed in the production units?? That's awesome! Maybe all of my bitchin' paid off for future K2661 owners!!

 

With a good keyboard action, the K2661 is a keyboard player's dream come true...

 

Kirk

[Max Ventura]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:It's easy to identify the TP9 - just put your finger under any key. If you feel a plastic mass filling the inside of the key that has three holes in it (the middle hole being slightly larger than the first and third hole), it's a TP9. If the key is hollow (i.e. you can touch the direct underside of the playing surface) then it's not.

dB

It's a TP9, then. However, it still sucks big time. I can feel no difference whatsoever between that and the Yamaha PSR 530 that is on display next to it.

[Mike Martin]

Max,

I'm sorry you don't like the TP9. There aren't many companies that make key actions. For many companies this is the best option available.

 

The K2661 uses the same mechanism that is in other relatively expensive products like the Andromeda, Moog Voyager and Waldorf Q+.

 

Perhaps you should look into a K2600R and a different controller keyboard.

[Max Ventura]

thanks Mike. However, as I said earlier, I've tried K's before and wasn't attracted to them.

I'll presently open up another thread, named "what do you want in a keyboard synth in 2004?".