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Petros


marino

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I've received a rather disturbing PM from frequent contributor Petros; this PM is, to my understanding, more or less a copy of a post by him that's been deleted.

He starts by saying that he's leaving the forum, but later, he says that he's been banned, his posts deleted, and he expects his ISP address to be blocked shortly. He's mad at Dave, calling his behaviour 'authoritarian' and accusing him to protect the big manufacturers (Yamaha, I guess).

My guess is that Petros sent similars PMs to other forum members...

 

Now, while I got frankly tired of Petros' obsession with the Yamaha mono/stereo thing (after a while, I just stopped reading those threads), I'm asking myself what he's done to be banned, if he really was... I guess Dave and Petros had some words via PMs, or on posts which have been deleted, or I just missed something...

 

I waited a bit before asking - but since I found no other reference on those facts in the forum, I decided to go public. Of course, Dave is not one to ban people without reason. But this has really happened, I would like to know more.

 

So Dave, sorry for bothering you with unpleasant things,but... Has been Petros really excluded from the forum? What's happened?

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I've seen Petros' antics on multiple forums - this guy does not let it go. For the past couple of weeks, he has been cross-posting on several different forums here and Harmony Central with finger-pointing accusations regarding Yamaha digital pianos.

 

If you're not familiar, simply look into any number of P120, P90, P250 posts by Petros or rintincop here or on the Harmony Central site related to stereo phasing and mono sample drawbacks.

 

I believe it is fine to discuss shortcomings and workarounds on instruments, which we all do quite frequently. It does appear that Petros has taken it to the extreme and has both barrels aimed at Yamaha, as if they were purposefully negligent regarding mono vs. stereo piano samples. Yamaha has a lot of customers and Petros is one of few that I've seen create such a stir over this highly subjective issue.

 

It is interesting to go back in time a bit to see the previous glowing reviews provided by Petros and his continued reports about the pride of ownership he has with the P90, P120 and P250. Then out of the blue, he seems to develop an overnight hatred for all these instruments. I don't really get it. At one time, he was Yamaha's biggest fan.

 

The amount of bandwidth being spent with all the cross-postings about stereo phasing and the Yamaha-bashing is just unbelievable to me. When does Petros play music? For that matter, do we have any examples of Petros' musical contribution? I would really like to hear it.

 

It's 2004 and we have so many great advances in musical technology today. The digital piano has made great strides. I'm not a Yamaha "spin doctor," nor do I believe that anyone on this forum is one. But this is what Petros believes. Many different solutions and options have been provided to him, ad nauseam. He is apparently not listening. He just want to keep bashing Yamaha.

 

So Petros, have you sold your P90, P120 and P250? What other digital piano manufacturer can provide you with a better solution?

 

I still stick by one of my original suggestions, which was to simply play in stereo if it bothers you that much. If you are playing in a quiet, intimate jazz setting, as you indicate, the onboard speakers on the P120 or P250 should provide that stereo experience you want to hear. Augment your sound with a couple of quality speakers, like the SRM450 or some Motion Sound combo amps.

 

Petros - good luck and I hope that crusade has run its course. I'm sure that everyone here knows how you feel. Please let us know if you have tried any of the suggested remedies.

 

Regards,

Eric

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Originally posted by marino:

Has been Petros really excluded from the forum? What's happened?

Excluded? No. I did delete one post from him last night, but only one.

 

The reason that I did so was as a result of a...shall we say...dialog that he and I are having over in Harmony Central.

 

In it, Petros said:

 

There is a group of Yamaha advocates that get perks if not salaries from Yamaha. Some even get a free Motif "for review" every now and then They chime in here and on the other boards indignant and offended if a Yamaha product is criticized by a lowly end user.
I strongly believe that he was referring to me, as did Mike Martin, who put up a post saying something to that effect. Suffice it to say that I took some exception to that, and asked Petros to clarify to whom he was referring, stating quite clearly (and repeatedly) that if I was mistaken and it was not aimed at me, that I would apologize.

 

He responded by putting up the following post in HC, which is similar to the one I deleted here last night, and (from the sound of things) is the same one he PM'd to several of you:

 

Hey Dave Bryce,

 

I'm a little tired so I will make this brief.

I never mentioned you in my posts, you are jumping to conclusions. And I don't have three threads going on this topic in your Forum. If I did you would have closed them. The more I read your posts, the more I think you are a spin-doctor. And I won't be intimidated by your aggressive messages. You may control and censor that other Forum you moderate, but I don't think you can censor posters here on this forum for pointing out and discussing keyboard problems that concern them. Such as the problem of playing stereo piano samples in mono. You tend to get upset over criticism of certain manufacturers gear. You seem to consider it disrespectful to criticize gear. You like such topics to fade away quickly and encourage such with your authoritarian warnings. I thought there was freedom of speech on these Forums. Who are you trying to protect? The poor readers who don't want to read about these problems. They can choose to not read the thread. I don't think we need you acting like big brother trying to censor people.

. Remember it's only gear, not politics or religion. It seems you prefer to have safe topics on football and other sports like the "Official" NBA 2003-2004 thread, rather than anything critical of a manufacturer. By the way does Yamaha sponsor or advertise on MusicPlayer.com in any way?

 

The description of your Forum reads:

"Synths, pianos, software, analog, digital, modeling, virtual instruments...this is the place on the web for discussions, debates, opinions and assistance...plus the occasional pro football thread. "

 

I think it should read:

"Synths, pianos, software, analog, digital, modeling, virtual instruments...this is the place on the web for discussions on the virtues of gear, debates on the praiseworthy quality of gear, and opinions about how wonderful gear manufactures and their reps are ...plus multiple sports threads. "

 

Mike Martin,

 

I have no gripe with you. I know you are only doing your job. And I respect you for doing it in a way that is unemotional, respectful and professional.

 

RTC

I saw this at 2AM last night, and deleted it. It is the only one of Petros' posts that I have ever edited, deleted or blocked in any way. I did so because without seeing the rest of the dialog between us, it was out of context; and, frankly, I had just had it with him.

 

Perhaps I should have left it up; but, in doing so, I'd have had to put a link up to the other forum for it to make sense, and/or respond to it in this forum as well as in the other forum; and, frankly, I just didn't feel like perpetuating this across multiple forums.

 

If you'd like to read the thread in question and my (as yet) unanswered response to the above post, here it is .

 

Please notice that my first post requests that Petros respond to my allegations that I believe he was saying unfounded things about me. I also challenge his accusations against Yamaha regarding the mono sample (I disagree with his position that it is unusable), and wonder why he has repeatedly ignored my suggestion that he use one side of the signal and apply EQ. His response was not to address any of these issues, but instead to put up the somewhat inflammatory post which I have copied above.

 

I felt that my only choices were to delete the post in this forum, or to cut and paste his response and/or post a link to that thread over here. I chose not to do that because I felt that this was repeating/perpetuating the very behavior to which I was objecting (harping on the same point across multiple forums).

 

If some of you feel that this was an incorrect decision on my part, I apologize.

 

Petros has not been banned from this forum. His IP has not been blocked, nor have I requested that it be. I have only ever banned two people (Robin12 and Skyy38, who I suspect were actually the same person).

 

However, if he wants to post here again, I do not think it would be out of line for me to expect an apology/explanation.

 

I'm sorry y'all got dragged into this, and I hope this can be brought to a reasonable conclusion sometime soon.

 

dB

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My take on this...

So, what's an ex-East Coaster, now living in California doing using the term "y'all?"

 

..Joe

Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4.
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Dave, thank you for taking the time to post this thorough explanation. I've read the thread on Harmony Central too, and now I understand what went on.

I'm glad Petros hasn't been banned. In some way, that sounded strange to me - in fact, it was pure speculation from his part.

I've watched as he went madder and madder with Yamaha about the mono/stereo issue, and as I said, after a while I just stopped reading those threads. I really appreciate Mike Martin's patience as a Yamaha rep in responding calmly every time.

 

So I'm going to whisper a few words in Petros' ears now (please try to make sense of my English):

 

Petros, I've followed many of your posts in these last months, and most of them showed that you're an accomplished musician who's welcome and useful to this forum. You seem rather stubborn, but that's OK - so am I, and several other contributors. :) Then little by little, you've become a bit monomaniacal about this particular issue.

I think I understand your disappointment, in a sense; you seem to have found the 'perfect' instrument for a certain task, then this one missing feature turns it in something much less valuable. It happened to me when I bought my Rhodes Chroma, after having saved for more than one year. The ad blurb said "Four envelopes per voice". Then when I brought the instrument home, I discovered that they meant two pairs of ASR/AR, and to obtain a simple ADSR envelope (the simpler kind of synth envelope, or so I thought), I was supposed to laboriously link two of those. I was mad, mad, mad. What, after having spent $5000+ you give me this shit?

Well, after working with it for a while, I just accepted that the Chroma was a great keyboard, with some shortcomings.

 

The hard facts are that you'll never have the same sound that you have in stereo, when you play it in mono, be it summed, singled, or whatever. It's not going to have that richness. Never. On any instrument. There were several threads about that in the past, on our very forum. (I'm not going to comment on the case of Yamaha pianos in this regard, because I just don't know.)

So, *after* having worked hard to find the best solution for you, including EQ, you have to decide for yourself if not having an onboard mono sample is too much of a shortcoming for you. But you can't expect that Yamaha would change the design, or would start yelling "We were wrong!!" It was a design decision, and if you think it's a flaw, well, it's not gonna change anyway.

There's no manufacturer conspiracy on this forum. Yamaha owners are lucky to have Mike to speak with - Kurzweil owners have enjoyed his patience, helpfulness and objectivity for many years. Dave Bryce is not paid or endorsed by Yamaha. And he has not banned you from KC in any way.

 

So, I invite you to came to your senses, admit that your disappointment made you lose control, mutter some deserved apologies to our patient moderator, and start posting useful musical comments again.

 

If you aren't ready right now, we're always here. Right Dave? ;)

 

Carlo

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Originally posted by marino:

So, *after* having worked hard to find the best solution for you, including EQ, you have to decide for yourself if not having an onboard mono sample is too much of a shortcoming for you. But you can't expect that Yamaha would change the design, or would start yelling "We were wrong!!" It was a design decision, and if you think it's a flaw, well, it's not gonna change anyway.

Exactly. Well said, sir.

 

If you aren't ready right now, we're always here. Right Dave? ;)

Right, Carlo. :thu:

 

dB

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This isn't the first time Petros has become obsessive about an issue, usually related to Yamaha pianos. Remember the 'noise' issue, where he claimed that there was some digital noise in P120 which was really loud? In fact, it was very minor.

 

There were other examples: whether Yamaha used the same keybed on all the P series, legato phrasing sucks on the P120, and so ons.

 

His modus operandi is to take a position on some issue, repeat it a million times, and never engage in any actual back-and-forth discussion. It used to frustrate me a bit, now I find it amusing.

 

He accuses people here of being shills for Yamaha. I've often wondered the reverse: perhaps Petros' anti-Yamaha crusade is actually motivated by some ulterior motive (works for another company, has some old unresolved grudge against Yamaha, etc.)

 

Petros, I actually do agree with some of the things you say. I just think you take things a little too far sometimes. Your arguments would be more effective, I think, if you eased off the gas just a bit. Otherwise, you run the risk of portraying yourself as a hot-headed 'nutcase'.

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BTW - what speakers did Petros end up with ;)

 

As far as the mono/stereo thang goes, he should get a Roland U220. It's piano sound is based of mono samples that are panned by keyboard scaling. In mono it sounds the same except for the spread.

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U220....It's piano sound is based of mono samples that are panned by keyboard scaling. In mono it sounds the same except for the spread
Well there is one in the GM bank of the P250 that is mono and keyboard scaled, but he didn't like that one either. :(

 

This isn't the first time Petros has become obsessive about an issue, usually related to Yamaha pianos. Remember the 'noise' issue, where he claimed that there was some digital noise in P120 which was really loud? In fact, it was very minor.
I offered to replace his P120 but he never took me up on the offer.

 

There was also the Tendenitous thread....

-Mike Martin

 

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The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for.

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I think that most of us here have rooms full of keyboards and if you don't like the sound/sample on one you simply move to another source or buy the sample you need. No one keyboard is going to be the end all. It's an unrealistic expectation. It's keyboards 101.
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Originally posted by Linwood:

I think that most of us here have rooms full of keyboards and if you don't like the sound/sample on one you simply move to another source or buy the sample you need. No one keyboard is going to be the end all. It's an unrealistic expectation. It's keyboards 101.

I think you're over-simplifying. What about after you've gone through all the keyboards on the market, picked the best one you can find, and discover that it's still not perfect?

 

I think that's the dilemna here - learning to live with compromise.

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Originally posted by TinderArts:

As far as the mono/stereo thang goes, he should get a Roland U220. It's piano sound is based of mono samples that are panned by keyboard scaling. In mono it sounds the same except for the spread.

I think the old Kurzweil 1000 series did that as well, IIRC.

 

Personally, the mono-stereo thing has never been a problem for me. When I play out, I use a stereo mixer, stereo power amp and two floor wedges, and have for about 20 years. I do so because...well...I think my rig sounds better in stereo... ;):D

 

dB

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Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Originally posted by TinderArts:

As far as the mono/stereo thang goes, he should get a Roland U220. It's piano sound is based of mono samples that are panned by keyboard scaling. In mono it sounds the same except for the spread.

I think the old Kurzweil 1000 series did that as well, IIRC.

Yeah, and the Micropiano, too.
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Well, Petros can argue as much as he like, but I dont know what he expected?

 

Maybe this will sound lame from someone with not so experienced and knowledgable (me), but he is talking about samples. Samples are just that - samples.

If he wants good piano sound he should play on a good piano. Yamaha and other digital emulations of traditional instruments are good as they get with current technology, industry standards and public demand.

 

PS.

 

How much should I complain living in a small south eastern europian country allways buying blind (thorough catalogs and webstores) trying to get best for my (very small) money?

Fat But Fast
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Originally posted by Faruk:

How much should I complain living in a small south eastern europian country allways buying blind (thorough catalogs and webstores) trying to get best for my (very small) money?

Thanks for the perspective check, Faruk....

 

Also, consider what we have available to us today as opposed to, say, 20 years ago when I had to drag around that CP70 :eek: ...or a decade before that when there was only a Rhodes/Wurli...or the years before that when a real piano was the only choice?

 

dB

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Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

...

Also, consider what we have available to us today as opposed to, say, 20 years ago when I had to drag around that CP70 :eek: ...or a decade before that when there was only a Rhodes/Wurli...or the years before that when a real piano was the only choice?

 

dB

heh heh. About 25 years ago I started playing keyboards in my first really good band. My rig was a MiniMoog, Arp Omni II, and one of those little Casio keyboards with 2 octaves of mini-keys, 10 selectable sounds and a little speaker to go with the line out jack. Guess which one I used for piano and ep parts. You haven't lived until you played Old Time Rock and Roll on a mini-Casio with no velocity sensativity. :P

 

Robert

This post edited for speling.
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Originally posted by Faruk:

Well, Petros can argue as much as he like, but I dont know what he expected?

I don't know Petros well and I only glossed over the KC threads in question awhile back, but I have a general answer to this question that may be worth voicing.

 

Sometimes when people relentlessly argue the same point, they aren't looking for an answer; they just want to be heard. If this is the case, what often makes people feel heard is to repeat back to them what they have said. This gives them the verification that they were heard and understood, whether they were agreed with or not. Therapists call this technique "mirroring;" and from what I understand, it's a commonly used technique in family and couples counseling.

 

Now I'm not suggesting that the purpose of these forums is to provide therapy for its members, nor am I suggesting that anyone here should have behaved differently. I'm just putting an idea out there for future consideration that people may take or leave.

 

For what it's worth, it seems (from my limited acquaintance with this issue) that Dave, Mike, and everyone else involved responded with patience and sympathy. In fact, it would have surprised me if the case had been otherwise.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

My Blue Someday appears on Apple Music | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon

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Originally posted by Markyboard:

When I was a young lad, I dragged my CP-80 :eek: ...20 miles :eek::eek: ...IN THE SNOW :eek::eek::eek::D

(Graham Chapman's voice):

 

Luxury.

 

I carried a concert grand 50 miles on my back every day...across a swamp, uphill the whole way...dragging a B3 and Leslie cab...

 

:D

 

dB

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Originally posted by Mike Martin:

U220....It's piano sound is based of mono samples that are panned by keyboard scaling. In mono it sounds the same except for the spread
Well there is one in the GM bank of the P250 that is mono and keyboard scaled, but he didn't like that one either. :(
:confused:

 

Wait a minute - I must have missed this before...

 

Are you saying that there is a mono piano sample in the P250?

 

dB

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Oh yeah??? Carried these from Long Island to a gig in S Carolina... middle of winter...20' of snow... cast on my leg... lost my crutches beating off a gang from S. Phili.

http://members.cox.net/mwolinsky/SchantzConsole.jpg

http://members.cox.net/mwolinsky/DobsonFullView.jpg

 

Worst part was when I finally got there I couldnt get a decent 32' stop...IN MONO :D:D:D

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Hi guys,

 

It's been quite awhile since I've posted on this forum. As much as the piano/keyboard has remained a lifelong mainstay in my life..........I've since been spending my spare/hobby time with the guitar. I miss our conversations..........and still think this is a great forum!

 

Anyway; re: Petros..........

 

I first recognized his obsessive, relentless "ways" on this forum from my dealings with him at Harmony Central (where he eventually got banned) when he posted under the name 'mreddyson'.He currently is known as Rintincop.

 

At the time, I didn't feel that it was my place to say anything..........as I didn't see that he was causing anyone harm.

 

When I read his recent "attacks" on Mike Martin & Dave Bryce......I felt that this time........he went too far! :mad:

 

I don't know what sort of mental disorder that he suffers from?........I sincerely hope that he does find help.

 

I think the biggest question for me is:

 

If he's so dissatisfied, then why does he own a P90,P120,& P250 and list them as his prime choice of digital pianos...........if he feels so short-changed?

:confused:

Surreal :cool:
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:confused:

Wait a minute - I must have missed this before...

Are you saying that there is a mono piano sample in the P250?

There are actually 2 mono piano samples on the P250, not including the ones that have a second mono sample layered (Dream Piano etc). I informed him of this weeks ago when this whole thing started. He doesn't like them. That's going to have to be ok, the product line isn't going to suddenly be redesigned to meet his needs. He's taken us (Yamaha) to task, and we've survived. When the new models come out, will there be a high quality mono piano sample? We'll just have to wait and see, won't we.

 

Steve

Yamaha Customer Support

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Pardon me in advance for being an asshole here...

 

Who freakin' cares? If every designer tried to implement the specific requests of every person who was ever going to use their product, NOTHING WOULD EVER GET MADE.

 

Let me tell you...some of the most popular music/audio products in history have been harshly criticized for not meeting the needs of a specific person or group of people. Their choice is simple: if one product doesn't work for you, get something else. If nothing else exists that fits the bill, either make it yourself, or form a close enough relationship with a manufacturer so that your input can be taken seriously for the next version of the product.

 

There's no be-all, end-all product for every person. Right now, some guy is playing an Andromeda (or a Virus, or a Nord, or a Stylus) in a music store and saying, "This thing sucks! I need easily recallable piano and organ sounds!"

 

Luckily for him, there are other products which will give him what he wants. What it doesn't mean is that the designers of the first product somehow made a mistake in not including a preset sound that would meet his needs.

 

Okay, I'm almost done being a prick. I see no reason, though, why one guy who posts under multiple pseudonyms on internet forums should be such a cause for concern. You can't please all the people all the time, and that's as true in regard to gear design as it is to songwriting. In the subjective world of music in which we live, it's an impossible task that will only cause a product to suffer if you attempt it.

 

- Jeff

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We have just been feeding a troll, that's all. Jeff d'Weasel beat me to the draw on this one, he's right, in my view. But think about all the stuff that "Petros", among other aliases, was putting down, e.g., owning the complete line of P instruments, buying and selling speaker sets to audition them, tendonitis because of the keyboard, and on and on, and finally a perceived deficiency in mono sum output. That's the issue we bit on, bad mono! Is it possible all this is just a virtual reality scam created by someone who gets off on anonymously berating others? Just hates Yamaha? Just a troll, that's all, and we're all just suckers! He gets off saying things on the web that he would never say face to face. Looking back, it took him about three tries to provoke his flame war. If he was really serious he'd just work around the problem: get gigs that had a grand piano to play - but he was just getting off on our wasting our time. Oh well....
"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
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