Live Laptops?

[hermanjoe]

It seems to be a very common thing for a keyboard player to use a laptop as part of his/her live setup. I am debating buying a workstation such like a Korg KARMA or Motif ES6 or just forgetting all that by going softsynth style and using my G4 with a midi controller. I don't know much about how easy or difficult it is to control sounds and tweak parameters live from a laptop setup vs from a workstation. If anyone has any info on the subject it would be very helpful. Waht equiptment would be needee d for a laptop setup, ect...A website or two to check out or just some advice.

 

Thanks-

[Max Ventura]

I don't know, my friend, the question is almost as old as rock'n'roll.

I have as much equipment as I want, being a dealer, and I have a couple engineers working for me that I can use to program stuff I don't quite understand, and yet they havent' been able to provide me with the perfect setup, and one that does exactly what I want. Or, if it does, there is a bug.

I have a MAJOR laptop, I could control the Mars mission with it, and I tried all kinds of midi controller/interfaces/master keyboard you could think of, but I cannot get everything to be as practical, portable, and reliable as an all-in-one synth-workstation in tandem with an all-in-one multitrack recorder (not a midi sequencer, mind you!!!). In detail, the best gigs I did were with a Rolandf JX 305 groovesynth linked to a Roland VS 1880 multitracker. Absolute, total control of a live situation. I couldn't have asked for anything better (except maybe semi-weighted keys and better sounds for the JX), but I controlled 4 live musicians on stage thru the VS while at the same time running AND mixing realtime multitrack audio, AND sync'ing midi clocks all over the place. Go try that with a laptop (although I greatly wish it did).

[hermanjoe]

Thanks for the advice. I think I am going for the Motif ES6 with a few plug-in boards for the live thing. I am planning on experimenting with soft synths and using the Motif as a controller. Maybe with time I'll incorporate the laptop into a live rig. I would like also to sample sounds from the computer to the Motif. I like the flexability of the Yamaha vs. your standard midiman controller or something like that. I guess you can't beat the reliabilty of those workstations.

[Superbobus]

About to take my iBook G4 to the music store to install Live 3.0 there. They are Mac freaks and at least there are some techs in case I fuck up my Mac.

[DallasPA]

Greetings,

 

Live and PC should never be used in the same sentence. Man save your self the headache, theres nothing like waiting for the lights to come on and not knowing if the software is going to hold up.

 

Dallas

[Reverend Rhythm]

I'm going more and more software in the studio, but hardware for live still makes me feel more secure.

[burningbusch]

I use a laptop live. It works flawlessly. I run B4, Fm7, Pro52, and Kontakt. Streaming samples while playing the B4. Never had a hiccup or glitch. Never had a crash. Latency is a non-issue. Plug in three cables and I've got everything hooked up (that's six analog outs and one stereo S/PDIF to FXs). Weighs less than 5 lbs. Best sounding, most versitile synth I've every owned. Takes 1min 32 secs to go from cold boot to software/samples fully loaded. Get a quality computer and quality interface (I use an RME Multiface). Only load what you need for playing. Work with until you have what you need working and have 100% confidence. Ensure that you don't exceed 50% CPU performance when playing normally. Make sure you're not topping out your RAM. The computer needs to run comfortably within it's capabilities, not living on the edge. It's not tough to do.

 

The Yamahas are good controllers.

 

Busch.

[Max Ventura]

Busch,

it's not like my PC or the software aren't properly working or crashing or glitching, it's more like the EXACT controls I want are not available in software/hardware setups.

For example, I bring home at nite my studio work on a firewire HD and load it in my laptop to do editing and try out mixes; I run Cubase SX 2 in both studio and Laptop, and, lacking the mixing board at home I'd like to midi-control those parameters most important to me, such as volume, track mute/solo/select, open EQ window, EQ gain HI, MID, LOW (I can skip on the Q and Freq), and also the transport controls must work properly.

I've tried Novation Remote 25, Evolution UC 33, Event EZ-Bus, Tascam US 428 (the best so far), Yamaha 01X (the most difficult), Radikal Tech Sac 2.2, and also Tascam FW 1884. That's 90% of the controller's landscape today, except J.L. Cooper which is not distributed in Italy right now.

None of those gave me 100% of what it claimed, for one reason or another. For example, Novation has funny workings with the transport control and the OS don't allow you to jump between templates without resetting all controls; the 01X will ask you to continuously skip between modes and turn on/off others or else you do nothing with it. also, the EQ management is confusing to say the least.

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by DallasPA:

Greetings,

 

Live and PC should never be used in the same sentence. Man save your self the headache, theres nothing like waiting for the lights to come on and not knowing if the software is going to hold up.

 

Dallas

I'm sorry to hear that. I just installed Live on OS X and it's a winner! Finally, because the older version was a nightmare. I'm a happy camper now. Just have to be patient for one more week, because then Logic Pro arrives...

[Ben One]

Busch,

 

I have an RME-Multiface for my desktop PC and it works very well. Could you tell us if you use the Multiface with a PC or Mac?

 

For me, the main appeal of using a laptop live would be to access soft synths. I could never afford (or carry) a Yamaha CS-80, but the notion of playing a CS-80V live is very appealing!

 

I've heard that there are some hardware rack units that can host soft synths. Can anyone tell us more about them and how they work? Do they handle all soft synths or just certain formats?

 

Thanks!

 

Ben

[iMember]

You can check out Creamware Noah . The plugs must have been written spesific for the unit though.

 

Don't you all just want a piece of software that functions as a simple plugin-host (for all formats (VSTi, audiounits etc). that lets you set up zones for different instruments and midi channels easily. You can of course use fx as well. Maybe it could have a small softsampler in it as well.

 

The ultimate solution would of course to have such features in Ableton Live...

[ksoper]

Originally posted by DallasPA:

Greetings,

 

Live and PC should never be used in the same sentence.

Boy, can I even "ditto" this comment. I left for a 2-gig road trip this past Thursday night. When I booted up my laptop on the bus, it was DOA. If I had been relying on it for sounds this weekend, I would've been royally f**ked. I had to reinstall the OS on the bus and guess what I'm doing for the next few days?

 

Oh christ, this means I've got to reinstall Groove Agent and Gigastudio!! I'd sooner put knitting needles in my eyes.

 

k.

[Superbobus]

Hehe, little misunderstanding. I thought it was about Ableton Live, that comment of DallasPA. Nah, I'm not gonna say it again, oh what the hell...

Mac laptops in live situations RAWK!

(OK, I saw one crash on a gig once...)

[ksoper]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

(OK, I saw one crash on a gig once...)

"Once" is once too often if you're in the middle of a set. I really wouldn't try it live unless I was using at least 2 rack-based computers running identical setups. My studio, however, is laptop-based. All my audio files are on firewire drives, so the reloading I did last night wasn't completely devastating. But on stage, it's hardware for me!

 

k.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by ksoper:

Originally posted by Superbobus:

(OK, I saw one crash on a gig once...)

"Once" is once too often if you're in the middle of a set. I really wouldn't try it live unless I was using at least 2 rack-based computers running identical setups. My studio, however, is laptop-based. All my audio files are on firewire drives, so the reloading I did last night wasn't completely devastating. But on stage, it's hardware for me!

 

k.

You guys are right, I was wrong. You know I've seen these others musicians, I think they play something called, I think it's an electric guitar. Well these things have strings and they break if you play them too hard or bend them (something these guitar guys like to do). Anyhow some of them break a string like once a night. Can you believe it? They have to stop and put on a new one and tune it up. Some have backup guitars readily available that they can use when this happens. Plus these things seem to go out of tune a lot because they are always fiddling around with the tuning knobs at the top.

 

Well these electric guitars are definately not something you'd want to use live--just not reliable enough. For studio use I could see them.

 

Busch.

[SoundMeister]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Well these electric guitars are definately not something you'd want to use live--just not reliable enough. For studio use I could see them.

A guitar that's missing a string can still be played (somewhat). That's not quite the same as a crashed 'puter that's resetting itself, has to reboot, the application needs to be relaunched, etc. etc.

[Superbobus]

OK, let's just face it. Hardware synths can be damn unreliable too (see my Kurzweil problems thread). The Kurzweils at the musical show have been inspected and are running okay now, but samplers crash, synths can start detuning, I've seen guys mess around with a Micromoog which wouldn't run until five seconds before counting off... Heck, I once had a gig where the drummer broke his snare side drum head (that sounds shitty).

So what's the problem with the laptop? Just maintain it well. I trust mine.

[ksoper]

I imagine that if I were actually using the laptop in a live situation I'd have all the software necessary to reload the computer should it fail as badly as mine did last weekend. Even then it would take me about 4 or 5 hours to get it ready for performance. That really scares me.

 

On the other hand, guitarists in my band have techs ready to hand them a tuned guitar should anything happen. I have a tech, but all he does is position my gear and wire it. If something crashes in the middle of a show I've got to find a workaround immediately. We don't have the luxury of a second or third set to get it working again. (And then there's the artist turning around to glare at you...)

 

So I'm still pretty comfortable with the hardware. If the organ/leslie dies, I can still cover the gig on the piano. If the midi connections fail between my controller and module, I can stillfinish the gig on the piano. If the piano dies, I can cover it on the controller and module. Back-ups for the back-ups.

 

If I ever get to the point where I can afford those 2 rack computers, I'll try the software synth solution. Until then, call me an informed Luddite.

 

k.

[burningbusch]

K.

 

I carry a hard drive that's a clone of the one in my laptop. Five screws to remove the cover, three more to remove the drive, then power and data cables. I'm sure I could do it in under five minutes. It is MUCH faster and cleaner than replacing a drive in a desktop. Not all laptops are this easy.

 

Also, reboot in the case of a crash (which hasn't happened) is 1 min 32 seconds--cold boot to fully loaded with soft synths and sampler. As a point of reference my S90 with autoloads takes about 45 seconds to boot. And if we do lose power, my laptop will be the only thing won't skip a beat.

 

If I do have a disaster I still have my other synths as back up. There are three or four songs we couldn't do.

 

Busch.

[alby]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

K.

 

I carry a hard drive that's a clone of the one in my laptop. Five screws to remove the cover, three more to remove the drive, then power and data cables. I'm sure I could do it in under five minutes. It is MUCH faster and cleaner than replacing a drive in a desktop. Not all laptops are this easy.

 

Busch.

Great idea. How do you sync up the two hard drives?

 

Alby

[DrJustice]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

Hardware synths can be damn unreliable too (see my Kurzweil problems thread).

That is not generally representative.

 

"Hardware" is several orders of magnitude more stable than PCs (including Macs). I.e. you can expect your PC to crash a thousand times before a HW box has a single hiccup. That is the norm.

 

It wouldn't be fair to leave people with the impression that they're equally stable

 

DJ

--

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by DrJustice:

Originally posted by Superbobus:

Hardware synths can be damn unreliable too (see my Kurzweil problems thread).

That is not generally representative.

 

"Hardware" is several orders of magnitude more stable than PCs (including Macs). I.e. you can expect your PC to crash a thousand times before a HW box has a single hiccup. That is the norm.

 

It wouldn't be fair to leave people with the impression that they're equally stable

 

DJ

--

Not my experience. My point is, anything can mess up your gig.

[SoundMeister]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

The Kurzweils at the musical show have been inspected and are running okay now

what was wrong with them? Why wouldn't they run properly before?

 

Groeten,

 

~Peter Schouten

Pyramid Sound Productions

[ksoper]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

 

I carry a hard drive that's a clone of the one in my laptop...

Busch.

Well, for all my bitching, I hadn't thought of a cloned drive. That would be pretty easy to do. In fact, I'll be shopping for a Toshiba drive ASAP. Y'all will convert me yet!

 

 

k.

[Max Ventura]

People,

computers are great, I couldn't live or work without them anymore; however, computing is NOT an exact science yet, at least not for another 10 years in my opinion. Only once or twice hard drive crashes happened to me, but I often witnessed (as I reported on top of this page) situations absolutely incompatible with professional AND comfortable live or studio work. Mind you, that might mean anything, such as "not comfortable FOR ME, for the way I am used to", or else.

I have toured exstensively in my life, at all levels, and in all positions, on and off stage; I have had all kinds of studio setups to manage, from rusty, steamy analog to crisp and pristine digital, and I frankly believe computers are fit for some situations, but not for others.

Maybe in ten years we'll have a totally reliable and much more versatile computing system, but right now, even having to deal with NRPN and LSB and s**t like that to make a controller do what it is supposed to do is a nightmare.

As I stated above, I am lucky enough to have not one, but two professional programming engineers working for me to have things done exactly the way I want them, and being a dealer I can also pretty much try out every piece of equipment I can think of, even just out of curiosity: at the moment for example I am trying out J.L. Cooper controllers to find one that exactly will suit my "peculiar" needs. However, what if I wasn't as lucky as I am and I needed to rely on my understanding alone and a limited buying power to make my computer system perfectly useful and operative? Would I be safe to play gigs relying on it? Or would a hardware multitracker plus sequencing synths do much better for me? Having tried both, I can vouch hands down for the second and by far.

 

BUSCH:

could you elaborate on the sentence "Yamahas make good controllers"? I am interested, inasmuch as I've just tried out the new 01X and then threw it out of the window, with my junior engineer barely catching it on the fly.

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by SoundMeister:

Originally posted by Superbobus:

The Kurzweils at the musical show have been inspected and are running okay now

what was wrong with them? Why wouldn't they run properly before?

 

Groeten,

 

~Peter Schouten

Pyramid Sound Productions

That's a big question mark for me. First they thought it was RAM, but they only took ONE Kurz there, so me thinks it was the files.

Still the KDFX department is acting weird sometimes but the crashing is gone.

[yannis D]

Hi guys

I've posted this thread some days ago, but got no answer back. So,maybe someone in this thread could give me an answer, or some directions about usin live a B4 with a Ozone.

I own a laptop (with B4, Lounge Lizard Rhodes, etc) and i'm running it through an Ozone midi controller wich is also it's sound card. Up to now I never managed to figure out how could I have the full control (in real time) of the B4, how to change drawbars/vibrato/leslie speed and all that stuff from the keyboard's knobs - without being forced to use the mouse pad, wich is very unpractical during the live situation. If you have any idea what to do with the Ozone that would be very helpfull

Regards

Yannis

[RobT]

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

however, computing is NOT an exact science yet

Anybody in whose worked in IT in the last 25 years will tell that we've come a LONG way. Is it perfect, no. But its a HECKOFA lot better than it used to be. MAX: in 10 years, if Materials Science

continues at the current pace, you may not recognize everyday general computing.

[DrJustice]

In this day and age, computers are fully deterministic and the science and engineering behind them is exact. The machines work bit by bit, cycle by cycle, as they are supposed to unless they're broken or wrongly made. The problem is, people are not deterministic or exact, and it is people that write the software. It is fully possible to write bug-free operating systems and applications.

 

The whole thing is too often as simple as this: people get to buy quickly/badly written software that was produced to make a buck.

 

Unfortunately consumers live by the myth/belief that computers and software are slightly stochastic systems. Sadly even some professionals(?) think along those lines. This is simply not true.

 

The reason that the software in "hardware" units (aka embedded systems) is a lot more reliable, is that the software is smaller and thus more manageable and easy to write correctly. Also, the mind set of embedded systems engineers are usually a bit different from e.g. the PC authors; they are often more concerned with reliability issues, whereas PC authors are often more concerned with productivity - it's a bit of a cultural thing in a way.

 

Of course further development will give us more sturdy hardware, but the classical software problems remain. It is likely that machines will write the (possibly bug-free) software at some point, but there is a lot of work left to get there since error prone humans are involved...

 

DJ

--

[deadman9]

Why not create a "Live" partition? Section off 5 gig of bootable hard drive space, load only the software that is needed, delete all items that aren't needed, and put all the softsynth start files into the "start up" folder. This way when you turn on the computer, before it even boots windows, you select live use or normal computer use and it will only load what is needed. If the live partition is ONLY used as a musical instrument (not internet, games, chat, typing, etc.) it will greatly cut down on the risk of things getting messed up. The computer would function just like a hardware synth, push the button and in a minute or two your ready to play. ay?