What's got the heaviest action?

[Chaso DeChaso]

Hello, all-

 

I am looking to purchase some form of electronic keyboard (stage piano or whatever) on which to practice and not annoy my downstairs neighbors. When I buy a house (hopefully in 2 or 3 years) I will keep the keyboard for practice but also have my Baldwin piano and mainly use that.

 

I care less about sound and more about accurate realistic piano-like feel. I am hoping for a heavier feel approaching a grand piano rather than some light Yamaha upright sort of feel. I want to maintain my fingers and hands. Is any keyboard known for particularly good feel bordering on heavy resistance?

 

I would prefer something new. The only thing I've played so far that I liked at all was a Roland - everything else felt too wimpy. Money is "no object" though if we're talking $3G and up I suppose I would have to think about it hard.

 

Thanks for any help-

 

Chaso

[Tom Fiala]

My old peavey C8p has the heaviest action I know of. It's even heavier than my Steinway's action!

[Reverend Rhythm]

The Roland RD -700 and Yamaha P-250 feature the latest in keyboard action, you can find people to swear by any keyboard action out there. Some people love the feel of their almost 20 year old KX-88. Go out and try keyboards until you find one you can live with.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Chaso DeChaso:

Hello, all-

 

I am looking to purchase some form of electronic keyboard [with] accurate realistic piano-like feel.

Check out the Kawai 9500. Wooden keys and nice sounds. Not very portable or I would want one myself.

 

Note that the fit on some of the keys can be poor resulting in sharp edges between the plastic tops on the accidentals and the wood base. Check the instrument you get for this in the store. I've only seen (or, rather, felt - ouch) this problem on a 9000 so they may have fixed it in manufacture, but I have not seen enough examples to know.

[lambchop]

Last year I did an extensive search for a performing keyboard that emulated a true grand piano action and I personally settled on the Roland RD700. I found the Yamaha's escapement to be shorter and the weighting lighter. I gig with my Roland on average 2-3 times a week and am very pleased with it. It's the closest yet to the real thing, in my opinion.

[Chaso DeChaso]

Thanks everyone for the advice. The RD-700 was indeed the Roland I played and the only one I liked. I will play that again and also the others that were mentioned.

[petros]

Yamaha P250 has the heaviest action, its downweight at Middle C is 79 grams, which is heavier than any real grand piano action should be. The upweight on the P250 is about 69 grams if I recall correctly.

[stoo schultz]

For comparison, check out the Harmony Central reviews.

 

I chose an RD700 too, love the action. I've heard though that the Kawai MP9500 has the best action out there in a portable. It wasn't available when I was buying, or I might have snagged it instead.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by petros:

Yamaha P250 has the heaviest action, its downweight at Middle C is 79 grams, which is heavier than any real grand piano action should be. The upweight on the P250 is about 69 grams if I recall correctly.

Wow, that is heavy. I was playing some Yamaha DisClaviers and GranTouch pianos the other day (full grand actions). I think it's the complexity of the real action that's missing in the electronic versions. Not the weight but a certain roughness (I know I'm not explaining the various parts of the action that come into play, maybe someone else can). Also the pedals have much more resistance than the switches.

 

Busch.

[stoo schultz]

I've always thought the roughness was a bug, not a feature, that gets in the way of fine articulation. All those levers and pivot points in the mechanism I think are a real obstacle to designing a key that actually feels "balanced" and "playable". I've read the early pianos had awful action, and it took a long time to reduce the weight of the keys and shave off the roughness to get something that felt good.

 

The current action on most acoustic grands is probably a compromise. I bet they'd be lighter if it were possible from an engineering standpoint, because that's what most people prefer. Easier to play all around . . . .

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Chaso DeChaso:

Thanks everyone for the advice. The RD-700 was indeed the Roland I played and the only one I liked. I will play that again and also the others that were mentioned.

The RD700 is nice. Beware the low end RD150 - its a much inferior action. You simply cannot get the repetition rate on it.

[Chaso DeChaso]

Agreed that heaviness is not per se a good thing and probably would be reduced if possible on acoustic pianos. However, my reasoning is that for most of my life I will be playing a grand piano with a fairly heavy touch and so I wish to keep in practice for my return to it during my current lack of access to it. All the electronic keyboards I've played have been too light so I thought I would aim to find one of the heavier ones. Also, I agree with the other comment that there are other complex aspects apart from weight which constribute to feel - I think the "hammer action" is in part an attempt to emulate real piano mechanics (succeeding to a degree but surely not completely). But, hey, maybe that P250 will indeed prove TOO heavy and I will go for something less heavy.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by petros:

Yamaha P250 has the heaviest action, its downweight at Middle C is 79 grams, which is heavier than any real grand piano action should be. The upweight on the P250 is about 69 grams if I recall correctly.

Are the downweights and upweights of various pianos listed somewhere? Where can I find this information?

[petros]

Down weight varies on acoustic pianos. Upright pianos generaly have a heavier actions than grand pianos.

46-56 grams is around average for down-weight on an acoustic when the pedal is depressed. Without the pedal depressed it's about 56-76 grams downweight.

Up-weight is around 26 grams.

[petros]

Article Touchweight:

or, "Why is my piano so hard to play?"

 

http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

 

50 grams is the average downweight for an acoustic grand, the Yamaha P series is about 78 grams at Middle C.

[burningbusch]

You can lighten the action on a grand quite a bit. I had it done to my Steinway B. I believe it's called weight reduction. The felts are shaven down (this is on the side, nothing that ever hits the string). As long as it's done within reason it doesn't affect the other aspect of the action adversely. My technician said the newer Steinways have more hammer felt than older ones, hence a heavier action. I think mine was reduced from 65 to 55 grams, or something like that.

 

After having a Kurzweil K2500X for several years as my main weighted keyboard I attempted to play some newer grands. My fingers, hands and arms had gotten so weak from the light action, I couldn't play them. It took months of daily practice on the real thing to get back into shape. With a real piano it's not just the arms/fingers it's your whole body, i.e. legs back, etc.

 

Busch.

[Dave Pierce]

I've played a lot of different pianos over my life. Most of them ranging from mediocre to really crappy. When I went shopping for a stage piano, the Roland RD-700 ended up being my choice. Action wasn't my only criteria, but I do love the RD-700 action -- it feels totally natural to me.

 

I also liked the Kurzweil PC2x a lot, and the Kawai MP9500. The Yamahas I tried were WAY to stiff for me.

 

Given the way it sounds like you're going to use this, you may want to consider resale value as well. Have a look on eBay and see what used models are selling for.

 

--Dave

[guestuserguestuser.com]

http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

Thanks.

[mate stubb]

Originally posted by petros:

Article Touchweight:

or, "Why is my piano so hard to play?"

 

http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

 

50 grams is the average downweight for an acoustic grand, the Yamaha P series is about 78 grams at Middle C.

That seems a little excessive. I like the action of the Yamaha P-120 fairly well, but it tires me. Seems like it would be just right if it was lightened a little. Has anybody tried to lighten the action on a P series Yamaha? How hard would it be?

 

Moe

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by mate_stubb:

That seems a little excessive. I like the action of the Yamaha P-120 fairly well, but it tires me. Seems like it would be just right if it was lightened a little. Has anybody tried to lighten the action on a P series Yamaha? How hard would it be?

 

Moe

I wonder how these numbers relate to how the instrument actually feels? I don't find the P80/90/120 to be terribly heavy, compared to some acoustic grand pianos I've played. Some Steinway grands I've played feel heavier to me than the Yamaha P-series, for instance. On the other hand, I'm just going on memory here, I haven't done any A/B comparisons. So I'm wondering if perhaps there are other factors at play here that affect our perception of how heavy it feels.

[Suppport Guy]

Yamaha P250 has the heaviest action, its downweight at Middle C is 79 grams, which is heavier than any real grand piano action should be. The upweight on the P250 is about 69 grams if I recall correctly.

As has been explained before regarding the P250 (and all Yamaha GH keyboard actions),the information in the post by "petros" is at best incorrect and at worst misleading. This has been addresed before and here is what the research revealed:

 

The designers and developers of the (P250)GH action had to take into account the entire process of what is involved in playing a key on an acoustic piano. When the down weight of a key is taken out of the equation and isolated, the measurement only represents a way of measuring the consistency of an action regulation job performed by a piano technician, nothing more. It is in no way representative of the actual force or energy required to play a key.

 

To get a clear picture of the energy exerted to play a key, the following equation is used:

 

Force = (Equivalent mass x acceleration) + down weight

 

Where the perceived resistance includes the effort required to overcome the inertia of the equivalent mass and acceleration is the rate at which the entire mass moves to the point where the hammer strikes the string. (Or in the case of the GH action, the metal fork strikes the felt rail.)

 

One of the more critical factors of the players experience is the how the velocity vector (or speed) changes as a result of the acceleration (of finger force) the player uses to attain different dynamics from the instrument. This one aspect is significantly more important than the (isolated) down weight (or up weight for that matter) in determining the amount of force expended by the fingers, hand, wrist and arm when playing music. This is the aspect of the GH action that most resembles the action of an acoustic grand piano.

 

Research done in developing the GH action revealed the following measurements using the formula above. (Force required to fully play (or press) a key to note sound at MezzoForte (mf) where the middle keys of a Yamaha C3 Conservatory Grand are a value of 100.)

 

Instrument - Lowest Key - Middle Keys - High Keys

Yamaha C3 - 134 - 100 - 84

GH - 107 - 86 - 80

UprightAcoustic -117 - 104 - 88

Other digital keys-88 - 82 - 78

 

To quote David C. Stanwood, RPT Boston, MA Chapter in his white paper Through the Eyes of the New Touchweight Metrology;

Whereas down weight gives a false reading of how the piano will feel when played, the measurement of actual key pressure needed in the act of playing requires high-tech measuring devices and is beyond the scope of practical utility. However, associating particular action qualities with particular combinations of strike weight, ratio and front weight offers a practical approach to designing the dynamic feel of an action.

 

When the down weight is taken as an isolated measurement (as "petros" did) one might conclude (incorrectly) that the GH action requires more energy or effort to play than a grand. However, when all the elements that come into play are factored in (mass, inertia, acceleration, keystroke etc.) the effort necessary to play the GH action is actually (slightly)less than a typical grand piano.

[stoo schultz]

So you're saying that the downweight may be higher on the Yamaha P250 than on a typical acoustic grand. But its mass x acceleration is lower (at least for mezzoforte) so when you add the two together, they're about the same as an acoustic grand.

 

What if you repeated the measurements at pianissimo? Wouldn't the downweight then dominate the equation?

[petros]

Then why is the P action more tiring to play than a real acoustic action? And does the P series not have the heaviest action?

[petros]

To quote David C. Stanwood, RPT Boston, MA Chapter in his white paper Through the Eyes of the New Touchweight Metrology;

Whereas down weight gives a false reading of how the piano will feel when played, the measurement of actual key pressure needed in the act of playing requires high-tech measuring devices and is beyond the scope of practical utility. However, associating particular action qualities with particular combinations of strike weight, ratio and front weight offers a practical approach to designing the dynamic feel of an action.

 

When the down weight is taken as an isolated measurement (as "petros" did) one might conclude (incorrectly) that the GH action requires more energy or effort to play than a grand. However, when all the elements that come into play are factored in (mass, inertia, acceleration, keystroke etc.) the effort necessary to play the GH action is actually (slightly)less than a typical grand piano.[/QB]

Yes, all of the above and then the P250 and P120 feel stiffer and heavier than almost all real grands, but I still like them because they allow such detailed and wide ranging dynamic control.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Suppport Guy:

when all the elements that come into play are factored in (mass, inertia, acceleration, keystroke etc.) the effort necessary to play the GH action is actually (slightly) less than a typical grand piano.

That's about how I perceive it, too: requires slightly less effort than most grand pianos.

[¾]

I hear that "Fat Angie's" little old Stallion Ranch just outside of Denio, Nevada has the heaviest action around, if you're into that sort of thing.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by petros:

"Why is my piano so hard to play?"

Changing the subject from touchweight to something completely different:

 

How's your exercise routine? If you don't already do it, I would suggest a regular routine of back exercises, crunches, pushups, a cardio workout, and so on. Having the whole body in good shape will have a beneficial effect on playing ability, and will probably help mental altertness and outlook. It may not help specifically with hand tiredness. But then again, it might.

[DobbS]

Hello,

 

This thread really intrests me, as I am looking for an 88 key weighted controller. All this time people have been telling me Studio Logic/Fatar are some of the nicest. In my experiences I was really happy with the feel of the Doepfer controller. I understand that this thread was about a new keyboard with sounds, but if anybody has any experiences with the above mentioned controllers please let me know how they weigh out!=)

 

Dobbs

[burningbusch]

I agree with Support Guy and GuestUser, i.e. real pianos generally feel heavier. But maybe that's not really what I'm feeling. Maybe it's the imperfections of the more complex action geting in the way. Also, when I play either a Roland or Yamaha weighted keyboard, I feel as though I'm in complete control and nothing is impeding my speed or accuracy. With a real grand, that varies much more. You can BS yourself into thinking you're one hell of a piano player on these electronic things.

 

Also, don't underestimate the psychosomatic aspects of playing. For example, to me the B4 sounds fat and solid when played on a weighted keyboard but much thinner on a synth action. It's purely in my head. An acoustic piano has much more resistance with the pedals, the vibrations of the instrument go through your body, wooden keybed, huge sound, massive instrument, etc. The experience is so different, I can't believe that doesn't have an impact.

 

Busch.

[deadman9]

If you have to have a keyboard go for the RD700. It feels the most realisitc to me. Even the texture and shape of the plastic the keys are made out of feels better than the yamahas. I just finally got my first real piano a little while ago(1906 Steinway Vertegrand), and after many years of playing assorted keyboards, I can say there is absolutely no comparison between any keyboard and a real piano. On the real piano, it is so much easier to control not only dynamics, but tone as well. The sound on a real piano doesn't just get louder when the key is struck faster, it grows, the whole instrument comes to life. It's so wonderful. YAY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY Oh, it rocks way more than any keyboard ever could, nothing can compare. (I LOVE IT )I suggest trying to build a sound dampening system to surround your piano, rather than wasting your time searching for a piano experience on a keyboard (I tried, it didn't work). Keyboards are great for playing in a band or taking to a gig, but the only way to play a piano is with a piano. Maybe you could try one of those drum enclosure things . If not, I think the RD700 comes the closest to piano feel.

Good Luck (hmmmmmm, half this post seems to have nothing to do with your question. EXCELLENT!!)