Motif ES Lust and a Quandary

[eric]

So I just bought a Roland V-Combo about 6 weeks ago and have been acclimating to this board as my all-in-one gig solution, replacing an RD600 and Electro. I enjoy the V-Combo for its simplicity, UI and drawbars. The sound meets my expectations and SRX boards help a lot in that area.

 

Well, I spent some time on a Motif ES6 today and have succumbed to the power of this instrument. It was the first time Ive played one in a quiet environment where I could really experiment and listen closely. Ive got major gear lust at this point and determined to add an ES to my lineup ASAP. Problem is, gear of that magnitude will need to be used on gigs to earn its keep and Ive just steamlined my gig rig, so Im truly plagued with what to do! I still love the drawbars on the V-Combo, but felt like the ES killed the V-Combo in every other sound category (not to mention the fun arps and workstation features).

 

Heres the quandary: Do I keep the V-Combo and add an ES6 for the least expensive route? The drawback is going back up to two keyboards, somewhat duplicative of one another. Do I swap my V-Combo for an ES7? Then Im staying with the one keyboard approach, but losing the drawbars I enjoy so much. It does seem that the ES has some pseudo-drawbar functionality in the organ sounds with different samples layered under the sliders. Do I go with an ES7 and a dedicated drawbar organ or module? Finally, I still like the ES8, but it is so big and heavy that I would not enjoy schlepping it all over the place for gigs and rehearsals.

 

Is anyone using an ES for their all-in-one gig keyboard and if so, how do you like it? Im mainly concerned about the ease of switching between piano, organ, EP and clav on the fly, layering sounds so they can be introduced via slider or pedal (e.g. piano with string layer). I also have some concern over the robustness of the ES6 and 7 keyboards...will they stand up to a lot of gigging and heavy playing or are they better reserved for the studio. In general is the Motif a roadworthy keyboard?

 

These are just some of the thoughts plaguing me right now...any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Eric

[Stephen Fortner]

Heck, I'd say the ES6 on the top tier of your stand and the V-Combo on the bottom would be one killer rig. I think you will miss the dedicated organ functionality of the V-Combo... I still take my VK-7 to a lot of gigs. You'd also have two flavors of expansion boards: Roland SRX and Yamaha PLG, to choose from.

 

Now if the good folks at Yamaha would make a B3-emulation plug-in card, with the four sliders used for drawbar control (you could toggle between two banks)... the ES would truly be a one-keyboard gig solution!

[coyote]

Shouldn't you have three boards - piano, organ, and synth? Then you could have the V-combo, an ES, AND something else! No more need to decide between them

[Mark Zeger]

It was sirgant's "K2600X vs. ES8" topic, along with this one, that brings up the question:

 

Shouldn't Yamaha offer a Motif ES rack? Who wouldn't add one to their rack? I would. It's the ES sounds that I love, not necessarily the keyboard/user interface.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Stephen Fortner:

Now if the good folks at Yamaha would make a B3-emulation plug-in card, with the four sliders used for drawbar control (you could toggle between two banks)... the ES would truly be a one-keyboard gig solution!

 

Or, even better, they could sell the clonewheel plug-in board, with an optional drawbar attachment! Or, maybe it could have the option of plugging in two drawbar attachments, an extra manual, and footpedals, and a Leslie speaker output!

[RABid]

Originally posted by Mark Zeger:

It was sirgant's "K2600X vs. ES8" topic, along with this one, that brings up the question:

 

Shouldn't Yamaha offer a Motif ES rack? Who wouldn't add one to their rack? I would. It's the ES sounds that I love, not necessarily the keyboard/user interface.

I have been asking about this since the ES was first announced. So far, no responce. The current Motif rack seems to be on middle ground between the Motif and the Motif ES. It has 128 polyphony and a bit different sound than the Motif Keyboard, but it does not have the expanded ROM of the Motif ES and I am not sure if it has the new filters.

 

Robert

[EZB]

If the ES is what you really want, but you dig drawbars, how's about selling the Roland and putting a set of Voce V5 drawbars on top of the ES? Granted, the silver/orange combination would be pretty rancid.

[burningbusch]

I have an ES8 and S90. I thought about using the ES8 live but for me it's just too big/heavy for what I'm getting out of it vs. the S90. Live I wouldn't use the sequencer or sampling (I need BIG samples and the load time would kill me). The arps I can load into the S90. So I'm really down to the sound differences and I'm not hearing any real killer sounds on the ES that I don't have on the S90. Now the big thing for me is that I'm using a Sony laptop which gets me the B4, Pro-53, Atmosphere, Kontakt (PMI Bosendorfer, +++), FM7 and Hypersonic.

 

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/images/DSC_0003.jpg

 

The most important things about the Yamaha line for me are:

a) great weighted keyboard

b) master mode

c) maybe a couple dozen sounds that I really like and use.

 

Master mode is going to allow you to switch quickly between voices and performances (and sequences). It can also send program/bank change external synths so you could have your songlist loaded in as Master mode presets and by calling up a preset, both your Yamaha and Roland would be on the right preset for the song (assuming the V-combo allows program changes as I expect that it does). I consider my S90 to be robust. My only fear with the ES8 is that it's just a little too big and is more likely to get banged around if moved by one person. I wouldn't have any concern about the smaller ES models. I do think the Fantoms have the best build quality of any of the workstations.

 

Busch.

[eric]

So I've spent some more time pondering this quandary I'm in and here's what I think I'm going to do. Being the impulsive, fickle gear hound that I am...

 

I am going to try and score me a Motif ES7 tomorrow, if time permits! I've been hunting for low prices to help negotiate.

 

I will take the ES7 and V-Combo to some gigs this weekend (fortunately I already have 2 road cases that will fit these guys). I will use the V primarily for organ and the ES for all the other sounds. It will be an interesting challenge with minimal time to program patches, but I'm up for a little gamble here.

 

If the ES knocks me out on the gig, I may just sell that V-Combo and replace it with a used dedicated drawbar organ. The V5 concept is a good one (I've owned 2 of these over the past 3 years), but the drawback is that it needs an external Leslie or simulator and I'm trying to travel light in general.

 

I also have been strongly considering the ES6 as a supplement to the V, but given the overlap in soundsets and the newness of each, I will be hard pressed to justify $4k+ worth of newly purchased keyboards sitting on stage. It probably makes more sense to sell the V to pay for the ES7.

 

I was concerned about the light action on the ES7; however, I found some facts on the Motifator site indicating that the Motif uses the proven Yamaha FS action, the same action that was used on the original DX7 and just about every other Yamaha synth made since then. I have owned both a DX7 and DX7IIFD and felt that those keyboards were pretty decent for synth-action keys.

 

I'll miss the V's waterfall keys...I'm holding my RD600 so I can potentially gig with it and the ES if I feel the need for piano keys.

 

I'm going through a major fickle gear cycle here and it is kind of a pain, but is exciting at the same time! Can anyone relate?

 

Thanks for the opinions.

 

Regards,

Eric

[mate stubb]

Originally posted by eric:

I'm going through a major fickle gear cycle here and it is kind of a pain, but is exciting at the same time! Can anyone relate?

Dang Eric! That V-Combo sure didn't last long! Did you sell your Electro already?

 

Moe

[EZB]

Good point on the Voce's lack of Leslie sim. Given your affinity for Roland's drawbar organ offering, I don't know why I didn't recommend their VK-8M drawbar module in the first place. As you probably know, it can get a pretty decent rotating speaker effect with all the COSM models.

 

Based on what you've written, that should be the best of all worlds for you in terms of sounds, controls, and portability. If it's not, then it sounds like--deep down--you really want two axes when you play out. You're among friends.

[Mike Martin]

One thought regarding the Voce and the ES. You could run the output of the Voce into the sample inputs then put a leslie insert effect on it. I'm not sure if the speed control would work...I"ll have to test this theory.

[Analogaddict]

...or you could get an ES and stack an Electro on top of it! Portable? yesssss. nas

[Ragious]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

I have an ES8 and S90. I thought about using the ES8 live but for me it's just too big/heavy for what I'm getting out of it vs. the S90.

Busch,

Since you own both S90 and ES8 you probably know the answers to my burning questions. Can you please help me to make this hard choice?

 

I'm (also) very much attracted to Motif ES. Currently I use the S90 for gigs and I really Love this board. In addition, i'm starting to build up a little studio with Cubase for composing/arranging purposes.

I have two options: 1) exchange the S90 for Motif ES8 and 2) Adding the ES6 (and take that one for (external) rehursal since it is able to have identical user-presets to S90). I'd like to gig with only one single board.

Like you, I dont need the sequencer during gigs, the player is good enough.

My questions:

- Is the ES8 so much bigger/heavier compared to S90 that you consider this a disadvantage for gigging? (didn't think of that...)

- I'm extremely pleased with the keyboard of S90. Do you feel ES8 has the same action?

- I thought about using samples for giggin (that would be a plus for the ES8). Is the load time that slow? Are you using CD-ROM or HD?

 

thx in advance,

 

Ragious

[bobster]

Eric, I can totally relate to the gear stuff you're going through. My rig ended up being an Electro 61 for dedicated organ (CX-3 before that), and a Motif (classic) 6 for e-pianos, clav, and lower-manual for the electro. Electro goes into Speakeasy + Leslie 145, and Mo6 goes into a Fender tube amp.

Works and sounds great. But now that the ES is out, I'm considering upgrading the Mo6 to the ES7.

 

By the way, what amplification are you currently using? Are you running this stuff in stereo?

[Mike Martin]

My questions:

- Is the ES8 so much bigger/heavier compared to S90 that you consider this a disadvantage for gigging? (didn't think of that...)

- I'm extremely pleased with the keyboard of S90. Do you feel ES8 has the same action?

- I thought about using samples for giggin (that would be a plus for the ES8). Is the load time that slow? Are you using CD-ROM or HD?

 

thx in advance,

 

Ragious

I can address a few of these.

 

The ES has the same key action as the S90.

In regards to load time, it depends on what you're loading and what kind of device you're using.

 

All voice files (2 user banks) load in about 17 seconds from Smart Media.

 

I have a 64MB sample that I use, which from Smart Media loads in 1 minute 30 seconds.

 

Some USB storage devices do take longer than from Smart Media, some are the same or better.

[Ragious]

Mike,

Thank you for your reply. I just read the ES6 review in the german 'Keyboards' magazine, they are VERY positive about it. I'll probably go for the ES8 option. It's just hard to think of a life without S90

 

Ragious

[eric]

One thought regarding the Voce and the ES. You could run the output of the Voce into the sample inputs then put a leslie insert effect on it. I'm not sure if the speed control would work...I"ll have to test this theory.

Mike, will you please help with this question and advise on how to do this? I wanted to experiment with running an external organ sound through the ES, utilizing the ES overdrive and leslie simulator. Assuming it is feasible, would it be possible to program some performances in which the external signal is always routed this way for every sound? For example, I might have basic sound needs (piano, EP, clav, strings, synth, etc.) and accompanying performances with different splits, layers, etc. At any given time I would want to play organ from an external source over top of these, using ES leslie and overdrive effects. So I would want each of the performances to have the ability to support FX on the external sound source so nothing about the organ sound changes (unless desired) as I cycle through different ES patches. Is this possible?

 

Thanks,

Eric

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Ragious:

[QB]

My questions:

- Is the ES8 so much bigger/heavier compared to S90 that you consider this a disadvantage for gigging? (didn't think of that...)

- I'm extremely pleased with the keyboard of S90. Do you feel ES8 has the same action?

- I thought about using samples for giggin (that would be a plus for the ES8). Is the load time that slow? Are you using CD-ROM or HD?

 

OK, I'm 49 years old and have lost some strength and enthusiam for moving musical equipment around since my youth. When I was young I could handle a Rhodes by myself and load the Hammond/Leslie in and out of the can with no help. Now a Rhodes feels like lifting a car. So I guess what I'm saying is that it's relative. If I had a ES8 back in the 70s it would have been considered light and compact. But I do find the bulk (length) of the 88 key workstations to be a bit much when trying to move them on my own. They just get banged up more. I always feel in control with the S90.

 

Regarding the loading of samples. The time that Mike quoted seems much faster than I originally heard on the Motif. Maybe it's s difference in format. If you can load 128MB in 3-4 minutes that seems acceptable. But for me 128MB (or there abouts) is a nice start but I really needed a lot more, so the computer based streaming was important to me. I would put together a alist of the sounds you feel you really need and calculate how much RAM that's going to require. Also look into editing down some of these sample patches. If you only need an octave or two from a sound, eliminate the samples you don't need. It can make a big difference. As a point of reference, my laptop goes from a cold boot to fully loaded with 1.5GB of streaming samples in Kontakt and 5-6 other soft synths in just under 2 minutes.

 

Also, I don't know anything about this, but winter NAMM is coming up and I wouldn't be surprised if a new version of the S90 with the ES samples is announced and/or a new rack. Yamaha has good momentum going with the ES line and I would think they'd want to build on that. It might be six months from now before we'd see anything. Maybe that makes more sense for you.

 

Busch.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Ragious:

I'll probably go for the ES8 option. It's just hard to think of a life without S90

I switched from the S90 to the ES8. I don't miss the S90 one bit....the new filters in the MOTIF will make you forget the S90 really quickly; plus, if you're real attached to the S700 piano in the S90, they give it to you on CD-ROM with the ES8.

 

Personally, I prefer the CF3S piano sample in the ES8. The velocity switch to the hardest level is a lot less obvious than the S700 sample.

 

dB

[Ragious]

Dave,

This helps! I learned (the hard way) not to replace satisfying instruments by 'better' ones too easily (Korg PolySix/Poly-61...)

 

Busch,

Thanks for your reply. I know what you mean concerning the Rhodes, just the idea of moving my stage88 makes me feel 10 years older

It's one of the reasons I bought the s90, that's why I'm extra careful about this.

 

As for sampling, I'd probably go for 128Mb using the smartmedia option as it seems faster than USB and enough for my humble needs.

 

another question: can you (remote-)control your software sequencer comfortably from the ES? This is something that does not work out for S90, it would be another reason to replace the S90 and get the ES8 for me.

 

Ragious

[Mike Martin]

Ragious,

What software are you using?

[Ragious]

Martin,

I use Cubase SX 1.05. Will upgrade to 2.01 soon

Ragious.