MIDIdiot Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 hello KB G-ds, can someone kindly tell me the diff between a kb described as semi-weighted vs fully weighted? Also, on a 76 note board, which keys are missing? Lower most, upper most or a little at each end? Specifically, I am looking to compare kurzweill SP series. I really want something light weight, I'm tired of lugging around my roland FP1. Any help appreciated! Earle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Semi-weighted action usually refers to plastic keys with some kind of weights in the actual key itself. Weighted action usually refers to some kind of moving-mass hammer-type action. 76 key keybeds are missing the seven notes below the lowest E and the five notes above the highest G on a standard 88 note piano keybed. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Semi-weighted feels and plays almost virtualy the same as an un-weighted action than a weighted action. I always feel that semi-weighing is a marketing gimmick. If you are a piano player you should hate semi-weighted almost as much as un-weighted, they both feel like playing on feathers and don't begin to give you the dynamic control or support of a good weighted action (there are some crappy weighted actions out there too). The Yamaha P90 only weighs 36 lbs and has a fully weighted action and a smooth piano sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by petros: Semi-weighted feels and plays almost virtualy the same as an un-weighted action than a weighted action. I always feel that semi-weighing is a marketing gimmick.I'm afraid that I disagree. Semi-weighted action is in no way a marketing gimmick. While it is true that semi-weighted action feels closer to unweighted than weighted, I feel that there is a distinct advantage to semi-weighted keys over unweighted keys - the unweighted keys almost always feel awful and cheap to me, while some semi-weighted actions can be quite nice. While it is true that a pianist will usually prefer a weighted action (especially when playing piano or piano-type parts), the average person trying to play, say, an extremely fast clav part or an organ part or even trying to enter a fast drum fill might find that a semi-weighted board may be a bit more comfortable to play on than a weighted board. I know I do... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIDIdiot Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 Dave, you mention "while some semi-weighted actions can be quite nice". Might you be able to comment on the kurzweill SP series? I do so appreciate both your comments. Earle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by earlew: Dave, you mention "while some semi-weighted actions can be quite nice". Might you be able to comment on the kurzweill SP series?With all due respect, Earle, the bottom line is what your hands think, not mine - everyone has different tastes, y'know? Are you in a place where you can go try one out? If not, I'm sure we could recommend a retailer that would let you buy one and return it if it doesn't work for you... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I cannot comment on the Kurzweil semi-weighted actions, as I have not spent much time playing them. I have traditionally preferred fully weighted for piano (Roland RD600 is my go-to digital piano) and semi or unweighted for organ and synth. Over the past year, I spent significant time on the Nord Electro 73 and Roland V-Combo, both of which have semi-weighted, waterfall-style keyboards (like a Hammond organ). I'm in the same camp as Dave B. While fully weighted keys make a big difference for playing true piano, there is a VAST difference between a light synth action and semi-weighted keys. I believe that the Roland V-Combo's 76-key action is best in class. I have been VERY impressed with the action and it is now my staple keyboard for most of my gigs, unless I really feel the need to lug more gear. The Roland presents an excellent compromise for playing piano, electric piano, clav, organ and synth parts from one keyboard. You should go to your local music store and try all these keyboards to decide which one you like the best. Keyboard action is a highly personal thing! Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superbobus Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 What is semi-weighted? It's weighted, but then again it's not. And that's exactly how it feels to my hands, neither fish nor flesh. http://www.bobwijnen.nl Hipness is not a state of mind, it's a fact of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 'Semi-weighted' means different things, depending on who saying it, and when... A few *subjective* opinions: The semi-weighted keyboard on a Kurz K2500/2600, a Fatar 176, an Oberheim 1000/76 (they're quite similar) feels very nice to me. I could even stand to play piano parts on that. On the other hand, the Kurz SP76 feels awful to my hands. The keys are deeper than on the 2600, but lighter... you just can't precisely control velocity. Roland calls the keyboard on the XP-80 and XP-60 'semi-weighted'... Fact is, they received so many complaints about the keys on the XP-50, they decided to do something about it. Having owned both, I would call the XP-80 keybed 'decent, playable unweighted', and the one on the XP-50 'unplayable'. BTW, the so-called 'semi-weighted' keyboard on the XP-80 feels a lot *less* weighted that a DX7 or DX7II keyboard, which nobody has ever called semi-anything. The Fatar keybed that's used on the Supernova II, E-mu E4K/ESynth, Roland A-70 (I could have this last one wrong) etc. is also called 'semi-weighted'... To me, it just feels as a synth action, with some resistance added. In addition, the black keys are a bit too long for my playing - they can get in the way in fast passages. Generally speaking, I've noticed that the overall quality of keyboards has lowered a bit in the last 20 years. In the first touch-sensitive era, the DX7 and D50 set a standard for 'unweighted' keyboards... I guess the assumption was that if a keyboard had to be sensitive to velocity, it would need some kind of resistance *and* balance. The M1 was a bit cheaper already... Today, keyboardists have come to tolerate incredible pieces of crap to control their synths. On a very cheap, light keyboard you can just play very soft or very hard, not much space for nuances. Carlo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by petros: Semi-weighted feels and plays almost virtualy the same as an un-weighted action than a weighted action. I always feel that semi-weighing is a marketing gimmick. If you are a piano player you should hate semi-weighted almost as much as un-weighted, they both feel like playing on feathers and don't begin to give you the dynamic control or support of a good weighted action ...I'm with Dave in having to disagree with this. I don't know the mechanics of what is used on the semi-weighted and weighted actions out there, and I suppose they vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I would prefer to use a good weighted action, but with the sounds I need and setup I have right now, semi is the way I have to go (for live gig ... I do have an acoustic piano at home to play, so this mitigates my need for that in my "live-only" rig). I played a number of different keyboards before upgrading to what I ended up with: A Kurzweil PC2 (76-key semi) and a Nord Electro (73-key semi ... yeah, 73. It's cuz they were going for the vibe of that vintage Rhodes with 73 keys). They both feel quite different fro each other ... and quite different from other semi's I tried. I actually think the PC2's action is pretty substantial for a semi. I don't know if it's the same as on the SP76. If I just wanted mostly acoustic piano sounds with maybe a little electric piano thrown in, but I wasn't concerned about that e.piano having a lot of bark and bite, I'd go with the Yamaha P90 like Petros says. Those really are nice-feeling keyboards with nice piano sounds, nice basic e.pianos and I think even strings to layer/split and bass sounds to play on split ... am I right Petros? If you want a synth your options widen, your decision process becomes more complex. Ideally you need to go to a music store, sit down at a few keyboards, and find what feels right for you. I hope this is useful ... Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 What is semi-weighted? It's weighted, but then again it's not. I exchanged emails a couple of times with the tech guys at Clavia regarding the keyboard action on the Electro 73. I had experienced varying inconsistencies with multiple Electros, so I was curious if they changed the action and how. I was told that they use a Fatar basic action with waterfall keys and the "semi-weighted" thing was done via stiffer springs. I found out that the lightning fast, featherweight Korg CX-3 uses the same Fatar action as the Electro and that the difference was the stiffness of the springs. The Electro had a serious resistance when compared to the CX-3. I'm not sure who makes the Roland action on the V-Combo, but it is much more fluid and predictable than the one on the Electro. Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Sorry, I was speaking from the point of view of a jazz pianist, not a synth, organ or clav player. I am a jazz pianist and playing jazz piano on a semi-weighted action is awful. The Roland XP-30, JV-80, D-50, Korg M1 are all semi-weighted actions I suffered on and will never play those type of semi-weighted actions again. They offered limited expression compared to the Yamaha P series actions I play today. Yes, of course it would be more appropriate to have semi-weighted action for organ, clav and synth playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by petros: The Roland XP-30, JV-80, D-50, Korg M1 are all semi-weighted actions I suffered on and will never play those type of semi-weighted actions again.Unless I'm mistaken, of that list you posted, only the XP-30 has semi-weighted action. The M1 and D50 were definitely not semi-weighted, and I do not think the JV80 was either. Until the QS6, I don't think very many (if any) 61 key synths had semi-weighted actions- it was all the 76 key units that had that. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 The JV-80 action is semi-weighted and is deeper and than the XP-30. The M-1 is also has stiffer springs than the XP-30. The D-50 is pretty light but a little stiffer than an XP-30. Of course the mileage causes older synth actions to get really light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by petros: The JV-80 action is semi-weighted and is deeper and than the XP-30. The M-1 is also stiffer than the XP-30. The D-50 is pretty light but a little stiffer than an XP-30. Of course the mileage causes older synth actions to get really light.Stiffer action is not the same as semi-weighted. I am almost positive that neither the M1 nor the D50 had semi-weighted action. I won't swear to the JV80, but it would surprise me to find out that it did. I am sure that the XP30 did, though - it had to to compete with the QS6/QS6.1 dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phait Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I have considered attaching lead weights under each key on my Fantom-S... if I do I'll be sure to let ya know how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 "Semi-weighted" is a marketing ploy, IMO. I have played un-weighted synth actions (Korg M and T series) that have stiffer actions than the "semi-weighted" Roland XP series. The stiffnes of the SPRINGS and BUSHINGS makes more of a difference than just gluing some thin metal tabs under the front of the keys, which is what they do for "semi-weighting." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by petros: "Semi-weighted" is a marketing ploy, IMO. I have played un-weighted synth actions (Korg M and T series) that have stiffer actions than the "semi-weighted" Roland XP series. The stiffnes of the SPRINGS and BUSHINGS makes more of a difference than just gluing some thin metal tabs under the front of the keys, which is what they do for "semi-weighting."To you, maybe. To me, they just feel like stiff cheap hollow keys. Plus, the stiffness of the SPRINGS and BUSHINGS change over time, where the weights in the keys do not. Semi-weighted keybeds are much more solid feeling and responsive than any non-weighted action, IMO. The one in the Roland A50 was excellent, among others. So was the one in the K2500, and the old K1000. As someone who is admittedly mainly a jazz piano player, perhaps you do not fully appreciate how much of a difference a nice semi-weighted board can make when laying down clav, organ, drums, etc. Additionally, to say that semi-weighted keys are a marketing ploy is (I believe) short-sighted, and more than a bit insulting to the intelligence of the average keyboard player, not to mention casting aspersions on the integrity of quite a few manufacturers. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Heins Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Unless it's an organ it's weighted action all the way for me...just more control for subtle nuances, be it synth or piano Darkon the Incandescent http://www.billheins.com/ Hail Vibrania! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyoctave Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 earlew, I had the same problem 2 years ago. Got rid of my 51 lb. Ensoniq (with it's 76 note weighted action) and bought a Kurzweil SP-76. I have had no problems adjusting to the action. I have found the SP semi-weighted action to be a good compromise for playing different styles of music. The sounds of the SP are based on the older Kurzweil Micro Piano set. I midi into the newer Kurzweil Micro Ensemble which bases it's sounds off the PC2 series. The keyboard is very well built. I have performed with it on many occasions without incident. Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK-1 + Ventilator, Korg Triton. 2 JBL Eon 510's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinwaym Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I have a SP76 that I take to gigs. It took a little bit getting used to playing piano parts on is, as it kind of has a strange springy action, but once I became accustomed to it, I have come to like it. I midi a voce V5 to it and am happy with the results, but if you want to play the fast notes ala Jimmy Smith, it isn't great at responding. I have a weighted action piano that I practice with at home, but I would definitely recommend a semi weighted for gigging. As a side note, not all "semi weighted" keyboards have the same feel. I really didn't like the Alesis QS series that was labeled semi weighted, but the Kurz is actually pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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