Saint Johnny B Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I'm working with a keyboard player, a real pounder who sometimes breaks keys which we have to replace, but he sometimes plays really soft, light passages as well. In other words, he's got an incredible dynamic range. Thus, it is difficult to keep his levels within manageable bounds when tracking to a digital rig and it's hard to control him in live situations as well. Plus, he's got a stereo keyboard rig. We got to talking about various ways we might solve the problem and here is a signal chain he came up with: source-->pre--->eq--->opto comp---eq--->make-up gain--->brickwall limiter--->output The pre is intended to deal with the wimpy signals that come out of his sound modules, the opto-compressor would deal subtlely with his vast dymamic range, and the brickwall limiter is intended for speaker-protection and to keep any digital mixer/recorder from going into overload and nasty distortion. So here are the questions: 1) Does this proposed signal chain make sense? 2) Do you know any boxes that will do the trick, if so, perhaps you could share some suggestions. 3) Does anyone make something like a channel strip that contains a pre, an eq, an optical compressor and a separate brickwall limiter? If yes, please tell me about it. If no, perhaps you could lobby different companies to make such a special channel strip just for keyboard players. Thanks folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssian Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Actually, he should be able to take care of the problem in the keyboard. You didn't mentioned what type keyboard/s he has, but synthesizers that have key velocity (this is what enables the dynamics) should have options to limit the responsiveness of the effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakit Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Sounds to me that this guy has little or no control. He breaks the keys? I've never broken a keyboard by simply playing it in my life. The guy needs to lay off the coffee. Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Same here. The only time I have ever broken a key is during a glissando on the old Hammond I used to haul around. I cannot imagine someone breaking keys from playing too hard. The first step for mixing this keyboardist is by getting his playing under control. Robert This post edited for speling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman1 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Try "crnaking up" his monitor send really loud. That will get him playing a lot lighter FAST! Big T from NY Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman1 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I meant to type CRANKING UP, i.e. making it louder. Maybe I should lay off the coffee too! Big T Originally posted by analogman1: Try "crnaking up" his monitor send really loud. That will get him playing a lot lighter FAST! Big T from NY Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Krakit: Sounds to me that this guy has little or no control. He breaks the keys? I've never broken a keyboard by simply playing it in my life. The guy needs to lay off the coffee. CarlI have to agree- I always find it strange when I hear of players breaking keys. There's only so much volume you can get out of any keyboard instrument through velocity, and for the most part they're designed to withstand that maximum velocity. I guess I can understand the occasional defective key breaking (although, it's never happened to me in several decades of playing), but when you hear stories like this, it always seems to be a chronic problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Johnny B: I'm working with a keyboard player, a real pounder who sometimes breaks keys which we have to replace, but he sometimes plays really soft, light passages as well. In other words, he's got an incredible dynamic range. Thus, it is difficult to keep his levels within manageable bounds when tracking to a digital rig and it's hard to control him in live situations as well. Plus, he's got a stereo keyboard rig. We got to talking about various ways we might solve the problem and here is a signal chain he came up with: source-->pre--->eq--->opto comp---eq--->make-up gain--->brickwall limiter--->output There is a max signal you will get out of his gear so just set his gain so that he cannot exceed the limitations of whatever he is feeding (PA or recorder). Sounds like the real problem you have is that he plays too soft most of the time and you are having to crank him up. Also, many boards do not have all the patches set to the same level of hotness so one patch will come through soft and another real loud. If this is the problem have him edit the patches he uses to get them at consistent levels. This is a pain many of us have had to deal with. Have him change the response curve on his piano to hard. That should help. Also maybe his monitor needs less him in it so he will have to play louder on average. As for the broken keys. If he keeps doing that, there is something mechanically wrong either with the board, its roadcase, or the way the roadies are handling it (if you have the luxury of roadies - they are a rare species these days). What's the model of the unit that keeps breaking? Perhaps its not a professional unit. You don't want to stick a compressor in his chain. It will reduce any musical qualities his playing may have, especially for comping. If that is the only solution that works and it does not noticibly degrade the quality of the key work, you need a new keyboard player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Yeah he breaks the keys, he sits on it, bangs the hell out of it with his elbows, and even uses his feet to play. He says it's all part of his act. The crowd seems to love it too. A hint: his big hero growing up was Jerry Lee Lewis. I know I can't get him to change his style, esp. since people really like to watch his antics. He went with a budget Fatar Controller, it is stupid and has no screen, no knobs, and no settings. It's very simple and easy to repair the keys. It has no sounds of its own. It's pretty well built IMO. Into the keyboard controller he plugs various sound modules, Kutzweil, Alesis, Roland, etc, and then it all goes to a huge stereo amp set up. I'd like to solve the problem with some kind of special keyboard channel strip or strips. There has got to be some kind of solution, please help me if you can. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KybdCanuck Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Even if you are just triggering sound modules, just go in the modules and adjust the response curve. Most of the modules you mentioned should have a pretty decent output--what are you plugging them into. I'd save the money on all the extra outboard gear, myself. For live applications, if you are running the signal a long distance, use an active DI to keep up the signal strength (BSS or Countryman are pretty standard pro fare, although Behringer makes one too I just can't bring myself to it). --MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve campito Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 The best way to turn him down is to put sheet music in front of him.lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted October 24, 2003 Author Share Posted October 24, 2003 I've used that on guitar players, but it won't work on this guy. He can sight read like a M'f'r. Hew can even read and pick out parts from a complete orchestrial score, and they have different staves, not just your standard ones. I've seen him do that on the fly. He's really an amazing guy, and fun to watch. I'm still hoping for a rack mount box solution for his level problems. I can't belive that no one makes a special keyboard channel-strip box. Amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Johnny B: Yeah he breaks the keys, he sits on it, bangs the hell out of it with his elbows, and even uses his feet to play..I don't care if you hit those keys with a baby seal, its not getting to get any louder than a certain volume. Maybe a brick wall compressor would work for this guy. Just make sure its got a real slow release setting. And you may need a squelcher too (that is to say, a noise gate that kills the gain when only noise is coming out) I am curious though - is he the act? If so, that is fine. If not, if he walks so does your act. From your original post it sounded like he was a sideman. If you are trying to promote a band rather than this guy, get someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Tyler Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 The guy needs to lay off the coffee. Geeze, it sounds as if this guy can make a cup of coffee nervous. Joe Pine (60's talk show host who sported a wooden leg) to Frank Zappa -- "So, with your long hair, I guess that makes you a woman." Frank Zappa's response -- "So, with your wooden leg, I guess that makes you a table." http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2001&alid=-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementia13 Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 I thought I was bad for breaking bass guitar strings, but that takes the cake. Well, almost. I once heard that Martin Chambers of the Pretenders used to hit the drums so hard that he had to get sets custom-made, and he'd still break them to pieces. No, on second thought, your guy wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Dementia, where is your avatar from I seem to recall something similar in my dim and distatnt past... pretty eerie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementia13 Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 This cartoon . It ran in New Times, a free newspaper in Miami which I think many big cities have versions of; and in The Onion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 I bring along a compressor on jobs in case I have to work with a singer; it really helps to keep the peaks down to save the speakers and the ear drums. I really can not imagine that a keyboard player can not adjust the velocity settings of his keyboard to keep things within reason. Other than that, you'll just have to remove the ground and hand him a hot microphone. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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