Fantom S price lowered.

[Dan O]

Roland has gone through this before with many of their products over the last few years . VS hard disk recorders , Vp9000 , RS series keyboards to name a few .

I think the price drop from $2095.00 to $1495.00 is a big reduction . If I had bought a Fantom at $2100.00, I'd be a very unhappy customer.

 

Who's establishing the prices at Roland to begin with ?

 

Is Roland saying that close to a 30% mistake was made ?

 

Wouldn't some executive's get fired for such a mistake ?

 

Young Chang had hugh price drops with the K2600 series .

 

Dano

[realtrance]

Always the groaning.... sigh....

 

I think it's about time for the usual clearing-out of summer inventory in preparation for the winter season, then the next NAMM, etc.

 

It's a typical cycle. I've always waited a year after the initial release of anything Roland I've bought (or anything else for that matter), and there's usually a point between August-October where there's a significant reduction in price. So, surprise surprise, this year it's the Fantom-S.

 

Why this is some sort of hoo-ha here baffles me.

 

rt

[RABid]

It is not just Roland that does this.

 

Anyone remember the origional price of the Kurzweil 2600 or the Emu Command Stations? I was a bit bummed that the Emu XL-7 I bought for $1250 now sells for $700. But, I was able to buy a second one so it is not all that bad. Now if the Access Virus would give a $500 price break.

 

Robert

[Phil B]

Originally posted by supermanrulez:

Phil and other Fantom S users,

 

I'm sorry for my sarcasm. I could have and should have posted my response without it. We all have opinions, preferences and different needs. I do respect other opinions and I'm sorry and embarassed if my post/s didn't reflect that.

 

Chris

No problem. Thanks - sorry if I was a little touchy (isn't it amazing how our purchase/ownership of an expensive product makes us really defensive as if WE ourselves were being criticized? I'll try to check that in the future)

[pbognar]

Originally posted by supermanrulez:

I said I can't imagine why anyone would get a Fantom S over the Motif ES. Since I apparently don't have a vivid imagination let me share my reasons with you.

 

Motif ES- Fantom S

 

19 fx processors - 7

61 key FS action - synth action

128 notes - 64 notes

175 MB ROM - 64 MB

2048 MB of RAM - 288 MB

114 FX algorythms - 77

4 knobs, 4 sliders - 4 knobs

57 buttons - 32

wheels - joystick

ribbon controller - D-beam

MSPS - SRX

30 kg - 22 kg

Hear Sampling in sequencer mode

Yes - No

linear audio recording

Yes - No

USB compatability/storage/expansion

Yes - No

 

The Fantom S looks to be designed for fast operation once you are used to the system. My S90 has a small screen, but I fly through settings because it's all button controlled, and I know where everything is, and it doesn't change. When I sat down with the Fantom S, I oundnd the operation is slower because I have to wait for the screen to update, then continue from there--though in all fairness I'll admit I don't have many hours on the Fantom S.

 

Generally I can tell the real pros apart from the rest because they know all the keyboard shortcuts for the programs they are using, and fly through the work. They don't have to wade through 3 menus to find a command, they just hit a key.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like big touch screens too as I used to have one. I think they're great for all those that don't know the system well yet because they show you more (and they're impressive to look at) but after the novelty of the board wears off and you're just making music, I don't miss it all that much. When you get right down to it, buttons work pretty well. Again this is only my opinion.

 

Chris

In general, I agree Roland waited too long to come out coming out with the Fantom S(ampling) - AND they left out a major functionality - add-on boards which allow new types of synthesis/polyphony. Yamaha has their AN and DX plg cards, Korg has their MOSS board. Would it have taken much forethought to allow for a mini V-Synth card for the Fantom?

 

It is a very good move on the part of Roland to drop the price - it is called survival.

 

Also could you clarify the part about linear audio recording on the Motif ES - I thought out of the Big 3 - Korg/Yamaha/Roland - only the Korg Triton Studio had the 2 direct to disk tracks feature (unless I'm not understanding what you meant by linear recording...)

 

Pete

[felix.]

I don't get all the complaining about Fantom S, especially when I think of how successful XP50's and XP60's were.

 

Fantom S is a nice step forward for Roland workstations, and offers features that appeal to a bunch of people at what is now a really great price.

[realtrance]

It's just penis envy.

 

rt

[Tusker]

The drop in price is also a supply-chain cleanup for the next Fantom (whatever) incarnation.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see something new and high end from Roland at NAMM. And a budget 61 key XV class synth as well. The lifecycles ... they are getting shorter.

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

[burningbusch]

Cleaning out inventory?, I don't see it that way. The Fantom S series is only about six months old. When did it hit the stores, May or something like that? It has not been all that well received. I've never a new keyboard generate as many negative reviews by individuals. Personally, I had every intention of replacing my S90 with the FantomS88. I would own an Roland if I didn't have the S90 sitting right above it when I was trying it out. Everytime I hit upon a sound on the Fantom that I thought was good I'd compare it against the Yamaha and in nearly all cases the Yamaha won. Now I've got the Motif ES and the gap is greater. I'm of the opinion that the new ROM is not an improvement over the old one. It's beautiful keyboard otherwise.

 

The Triton series continues to sell well. The new ES is twice the synth as the original. Notice that Creamware dropped the price of the Noah by about 25%, after it had been out for only a few months. The only reason a company would drop the price significantly on a new product is if the inital sales were disappointing. It makes no sense otherwise.

 

Busch.

[realtrance]

Me, I prefer the Amiga over the Atari ST...

 

rt

[Tusker]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Cleaning out inventory?, I don't see it that way. The Fantom S series is only about six months old. When did it hit the stores, May or something like that? It has not been all that well received. I've never a new keyboard generate as many negative reviews by individuals.

I didn't realize that. I thought it had been out for nearly a year. I actually liked it very much, but I don't have great ears, as I am finding out when I ask people what they think of my recordings.

 

Originally posted by burningbusch:

The Triton series continues to sell well. The new ES is twice the synth as the original. Notice that Creamware dropped the price of the Noah by about 25%, after it had been out for only a few months. The only reason a company would drop the price significantly on a new product is if the inital sales were disappointing. It makes no sense otherwise.

I'm only hazarding a guess. But I believe this more than a question of optimizing the profit of a product line. The Motif ES takes direct aim at what has been Roland's bread and butter. It's a strategic signal. Corporate prestige is at stake ... and a battle for marketshare and mindshare ... just as it was when Toyota and Honda dropped prices to mortally hurt Nissan and damage the Nissan Maxima by simultaneously dropping prices on Accord and Camry. There was no room for a third manufacturer in the mid-price family car segment. And so events proved.

 

The smaller, entrenched Honda fought off the larger Yamaha in the 70's when Yamaha dared to challenge Honda's supremacy in motorcycles. Honda's response was a product proliferation, not a price drop but it was devastating. They brought in dozens of newer models over a period of two years ... in every price range, bracketing all the Yamaha offerings. Motorcycles were a no profit zone for several years, but they scared off Yamaha ... and slowly built the margins back after Yamaha ceded primacy to Honda.

 

As I see various other events in electronic MI, I think that Yamaha is seriously considering more investment in this area ... and a more prestigous role. And I think Roland (and perhaps Korg) will try to show them how unattractive it can be.

 

I'm only a student of Japanese management, but I find it easier to understand their primary corporate motive as a struggle for marketshare over profit. This is a function of the Keiretsu industry structures, the long term view, the low cost of capital etc. Japanese management consultants I have worked with subscribe to the sense that if you get the market, the profit will come in time. If I am wrong, I am wrong. But if I am right, we are watching a corporate battle, and it's a great time to be a synth consumer.

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

[swandiver]

Jerry, I hope you're right about this being the beginning of a serious battle for market share, because if so, then you're also right that we as consumers could see great new products for amazingly low prices. Roland and Korg are no doubt going to have to match the specs of the Motif ES to stay in market share. I'm expecting Korg is poised to offer something to supercede the Triton at the Winter NAMM, especially given how it's dated, being outdone by the ES, and they've already announced they have a new "RX" sound engine first found in the upcoming PA1x pro (an arranger workstation). Roland, however, is still trying to play catch-up. The Fantom-S is what the original Fantom should have been *two years* ago, so Roland is now going to have to leap-frog the ES by coming out *quickly* with something that has *much* better specs than the Fantom-S (and as good or better than the ES), or else I'm afraid Roland might be squeezed out of the workstation market, maybe for good. I basically think it might be do-or-die time for them. But I really think the one thing keeping Yamaha from gaining total market dominance in the area of workstations is the tiny screen which results in a complicated OS/user-interface. If they took their screen/interface from the Tyros, for example, and put it on the ES, and simply add an internal hard drive and cd-burner, there would be *NO* single advantage that Korg or Roland would have in their workstations over the Motif!

[RABid]

For Roland, blend the Fantom S with the hardware of the XV-5080 and include the SRX Piano ROM. Those specs form the XV-5080 should include a SCSI port to load and save samples. That would give you a good start. The onlything new to add would be recording to disk.

 

Robert

[felix.]

What about a top-notch Sampler/ROMpler with V-Synth capabilities, the audio/MIDI sequencer from the MV8000, CDRW built in, plenty of realtime control, and the ability to hook up to a Monitor and Keyboard? Could be yummy!

[RABid]

Originally posted by felix the scary black cat:

What about a top-notch Sampler/ROMpler with V-Synth capabilities, the audio/MIDI sequencer from the MV8000, CDRW built in, plenty of realtime control, and the ability to hook up to a Monitor and Keyboard? Could be yummy!

Ok. There is that.

 

Robert

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

The only reason a company would drop the price significantly on a new product is if the inital sales were disappointing. It makes no sense otherwise.

I agree with Bill here.

 

As a rule, a product's sales do not increase over it's lifetime - almost everything has to do with how big a bang it gets out of the chute. Consequently, if initial sales are not good, it stands to reason that they're gonna go even further downhill. Everything has a price point at which it's a no-brainer (you'd all buy a FantomS if it were $100, right?). so the easiest thing for a manufacturer to do is drop the price to see what effect that'll have.

 

As I mentioned in a previous post, I fully believe that Roland adds a big chunk to their margin on most (if not all) their products to allow for that eventuality. It's a no-lose proposition - either they make a ton of profit on a hit and then drop prices when it slows down, or they have room to drop the price on something that never sells well and still make a fine profit.

 

Capitalism at it's finest.

 

dB

[Synthguy]

That's true Dave, as the price was fairly reasonable to start with. I'm hoping Korg, Kurzweil, Roland and Yamaha all do well as all their instruments are marvelous, and the constant competition means they offer some excellent gear for us to save for. They do need a fairly hefty bank account to keep doing this every year, but it seems there are enough of us to keep the money supply coming.

 

I am counting on Korg to release that Oasys one of these NAMMs, and Kurzweil to reveal the next generation of their VAST instruments. That should be a sweet show.