marino Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 OK it took a while, but I finally found a Minimoog to compare my new (well, used) Studio Electronics SE-1 to. The experience was revealing. It wasn't just a quick comparison: We played, programmed and listened for a couple of hours. My friend, an excellent jazz pianist, is also an analog fanatic. He has a very complete Moog modular, OB8, Memorymoog, Prophet 5, Oberheim 4-voice, Serge modular, plus a Kurz K2500, a WAvestation A/D and a few other synths. I brought my SE-1 and my humble AN1x. First of all, the Minimoog we played is not any Mini: It's one of the legendary "R.A. Moog" first production Minis (one of the first 150 or so, I believe), and it sounds simply fantastic. A little explanation for the uninitiated: Those first Minis have unique oscillators banks and filters. The osc bank is made entirely with discrete components; the later ones, even the so-called "earlier" osc banks, are not. The ladder filters, according to legend, have matched pairs of transistors thru the entire ladder, while all later fiters have only the first and last pair of transistor matched. In short, it's the most sought-after (and rare) version of the Minimoog, because it sounds *great* despite being impossible to tune. Let's go ahead. First, we compared naked waveforms, same volume, no EQ. I was rather proud of the SE-1 here... They all (sawtooth, square, triangle) sounded really, really similar between the two instruments. We did some blindfold test and weren't able to tell the difference most of times. Things changed a bit when we started stacking oscillators; the innate instabilty of the Mini oscs gave them a better fullness - and curiously, detuning was less objectionable on the Mini than on the SE-1, I suppose because the Mini being less stable, the detuning changed constantly, giving 'animation' to the sound. When you detune on the SE-1, its very stable oscillators keep the same beatings for long periods of time, making for a more static sound. When we started using the filters, the scenario changed *radically*. I had the plasure to play the best Mini filter I've ever heard. Nasty and creamy! The sound of the filter, plus the faster envelopes on the Mini, made a real difference. I was shocked! The SE-1 now sounded a bit too sweet and well-behaved, almost an Oberheim-like character, when compared to the Mini. I guess those early filter are really something! When I came to my senses, I played the SE-1 again for a while, and there they were - the fat, big and rich analog, Moog style sounds I had programmed. And with its four envelopes, three LFOs, two filters, sync, etc. it can sound even richer than a Mini at times. But guys, this particular kind of Mini is a monster. Its filter sounds definitely more aggressive than the SE-1 filter, and the osc drift gives it even more character. While I still love my SE-1, I was really amazed by the sound of this Mini - so needless to say, I'll try to have a second round of comparisons with a more "normal" Mini. Coming soon! Oh, we also played the AN1x a bit... The most used word when browsing thru my programs was, "nice" (well, the Italian equivalent... ). So if you forget that it has 20 oscillators, 4 filters and 3 effects on every sound, it holds well. "Nice". We spent the last hour or so playing with the Moog modular. Now, if there's one analog synth in the world that sounds better than a Mini, is this one! Every time I play one, I'm in heaven. Its oscillators are beyond belief. Half of the system was out for manutention, and the keyboard was disconnected too, so I enjoyed myself with the 24-step sequencer, 4 oscillators, three filters, ring mod... The oscs have separate outputs for every waveform! I used a sine to FM a lowpass filter, a square to FM another osc, a sawtooth to feed an highpass filter whose envelope was controlled by the sequencer, which at the same time gave the overall frequency to all oscillators thru a driver, and controlled the lowpass cutoff. All at the same time! Then I did a few other things that I'll spare you for now. All I can say is - I want one when I get rich. See you at round 2 !! Carlo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OctaveDr Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 hey carlo, looks like you survived the blackout... interesting comparison...was this "friend" anybody that we might know? i wonder how a voyager would compare to that mini? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssian Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Cool post Carlo, thanks for typing that up! Man, an RA Mini would be awesome to have. If your friend would like to trade for a newer Mini (with Kenton MIDI), just let me know. I'll even throw in the black keys for free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Hey Carlo! Now I know why analogs are so expensive. Some dude in Italy brought up most of the supply. Sounds like a very interesting weekend! So, would you say that the AN1x is "sympatico" or "gentile"? I hope that you'll have a chance to compare your friend's Moog modular to the software version sometime. Ciao, Daniele The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Thank you Carlo. What an interesting day that must have been. It's been awhile since I've played an early minimoog. Voyager doesn't have that drift. It was easy to imagine how the little AN1X sounded compared to the Moogs and the SE1. I've been through the same process of involving 2 AN1X scenes and stacking the oscillators. Also using the free envelopes to simulate pitch drift over a 16 second cycle. You can set up the free envelope to not re-trigger (so that the oscillator kicks in at a pitch close to where it was). This creates a very good emulation of the unstable oscillators (to me). However.... Apart from the timbral differences in the note (which a careful programmer can minimize), the thing I miss most about analog monosynths is the smoothness. This is not single versus multi-triggering envelopes issue but the smoothness of sound. I think this is due to the envelope shapes, but also due to the fact the oscillators and LFO's are always running in an analog synth. Apart from the Moog rawness, this is the quality I miss most in the AN1X. Cheers, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted September 30, 2003 Author Share Posted September 30, 2003 Thanks for the replies. Octave - the blackout was an interesting experience. In fact, I was tempted to start a thread about it... It was on Sunday morning, so not too much harm was done. But the amazing thing was to hear *silence* all around the neighborhood! No TV sets or stereos, very few cars and planes - just people talking and birds voices. A very different way to wake up. I didn't mention my friend's name in my post, just because I forgot to ask him if that would have bothered him, so I'll refrain to do it for now. Odyssian - I'm told that Mini is not for sale "and it will never be". I can understand that... But, um, how much for your Mini with MIDI?! Dan - we called the AN1x "carino" or "simpatico" or "non male". I can't wait to try the Arturia Modular too! Jerry - I see two problems in simulating oscillator drift with the freeEGs on the AN1x: 1) If you stack two scenes and put them in Dual Unison mode for a big mono sound, you'll always have 5 oscillators moving the same way. The analog drift is constantly changing. 2) What's even worse, with every note press, you will always have the same kind of pitch movement! Even if you associate that with a pitch LFO controlled by velocity or something, it will have a 'sameness' that's very detectable. I fully agree with you that the most remarkable difference between real analog and... well, anything else is smoothness of sound. I could not have said it better. I don't know if it's just a matter of the digital stepping/quantization, but you *can* definitely hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Originally posted by marino: Dan - we called the AN1x "carino" or "simpatico" or "non male". OK, here I go to Babelfish to find out what that can mean. Originally posted by marino: Jerry - I see two problems in simulating oscillator drift with the freeEGs on the AN1x: 1) If you stack two scenes and put them in Dual Unison mode for a big mono sound, you'll always have 5 oscillators moving the same way. The analog drift is constantly changing. I agree that is a true weakness. Each of the 20 oscillators cannot have it's own eg. They drift in four groups of five, because we have only 4 free eg's. Sometimes I turn off unison mode in favor of single mode to "simulate" 3-4 oscillators more fully. This is because the detune amounts (in unison mode) are always the same. They muddy the environment in which the drifting free eg's work. So the net result is more like "chorusing" than "drifting." Originally posted by marino: 2) What's even worse, with every note press, you will always have the same kind of pitch movement! Even if you associate that with a pitch LFO controlled by velocity or something, it will have a 'sameness' that's very detectable. This concern can be addressed, Carlo. If you turn keytriggering off (in the EG), it will free-run through the loop. The maximimum time for an EG is 16 seconds, and though all eg's will have the same length you can draw different curves for each. As long as the periodicity is different between the eg's (i.e. the wavelength of the curves you draw) you will never run across the same combination of pitches more than once (unless you press the key exactly every 16 seconds). So any time you press a key, the pitches are in some random position, beating against each other and shifting constinuously, but your ear cannot predict what that will be. You can also scale the envelope by midi note #, but I haven't found that feature helpful. Originally posted by marino: I fully agree with you that the most remarkable difference between real analog and... well, anything else is smoothness of sound. I could not have said it better. I don't know if it's just a matter of the digital stepping/quantization, but you *can* definitely hear it.I am glad to hear that from you. It means I can have more confidence in what I am hearing. I cannot think of a single digital synth whose oscillators I would describe as "liquid" in an analog way. Cheers, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssian Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Originally posted by marino: Odyssian - I'm told that Mini is not for sale "and it will never be". I can understand that... But, um, how much for your Mini with MIDI?! Hi Carlo, I'm afraid the only way I can force myself to part with the Mini is to trade for an RA Mini, or a modular. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 Originally posted by Jerry Aiyathurai: If you turn keytriggering off (in the EG), it will free-run through the loop. JerryYou're absolutely right. I had forgotten about turning off key triggering. Frankly, I haven't used the free EGs much - they're rather cumbersome to program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthguy Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Marino, as long as you're collecting synthesizers to compare, is there any way you can acquire a Nord Modular of some type? I'm very curious as to whether it sounds acceptably VA or disappointing in comparison to one of the analogs. I do have plenty of VA power on hand, and can accomplish quite a bit with them, so perhaps my money would be better spent on that Andromeda. Jerry, I see you changed your name. I wondered if that was tusker speaking. This keyboard solo has obviously been tampered with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Hey Carlo, as I'm about to have a gentle laugh at your expense, I thought I'd begin by saying how much I enjoy your detailed posts, the reviews, comparisons, the "issues in synthesis" threads, and how truly excellent it is for us all that you are such an advanced and expressive user of the English language! That said, What's "Manutention"? Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 Originally posted by Sir Basil: Marino, as long as you're collecting synthesizers to compare, is there any way you can acquire a Nord Modular of some type? Sir, I'm sorry to precise that I'm about the most distant thing from a collector you can imagine. First, I don't have the money - second, I like to buy instruments which I actually play and program, so I ponder my purchases quite a bit. I'm a full-time musician; I use all the stuff I own. That said, I would love to put my hands on a G2, even though I'm not planning to buy it. Rest assured that if/when I'll be able to spend some quality time with it, I'll post my impressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 Originally posted by Magpel: What's "Manutention"? Um, ehm... I'm afraid I meant "maintenance"... Sometimes languages get mixed up in my head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Originally posted by Magpel: Hey Carlo, ... I thought I'd begin by saying how much I enjoy your detailed posts, the reviews, comparisons, the "issues in synthesis" threads, and how truly excellent it is for us all that you are such an advanced and expressive user of the English language! Carlo writes in English better than most Americans do. Very impressive!!! The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realtrance Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Of course, this raises the question, how does the new Voyager sound alongside the RA and Modular? And the even more exciting question, in my mind: assuming the new Voyager is doing okay, is there any chance that Moog might create an "R.A. 2" and "Moog Modular New Generation" some day? Is it possible (well, certainly the latter), technically? Of course neither would sound like the originals, but certainly recreating the R.A. filter and the Modular's capabilities might be of interest to analog hounds out there? rt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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