The C(add2) chord

[petros]

The convention C(add2) is clear and is used all the time to get [C, D, E, G]

[C, D, G] unfortunately is not a proper triad based chord and is a perfect example of the zone where the chord symbol system starts to break down. The only way of stating it clearly would be [C(add2, no 3rd)] which is a mouthful, but its the only clear way.

[alby]

Petros,

 

C add 9 is not the same as C9 - true?

 

Regards

Alby

[Synthbro]

It's true that there is no standardization of chord symbols. This fact adds to the ambiguity or misunderstanding of the composer's intention at times during sessions.

 

The main difference between the 2 chord symbols C9 and C(add9) is the fact that the C9 chord symbol assumes the chord contains the flat seventh as a chord tone. The C (add9) has no seventh.

 

The chord symbol C9 would expect the following to be played:

C - Root

E - Third

G - Fifth

B flat - Flat seventh

D - Ninth

 

The chord symbol C(add 9) would expect the following to be played:

C - Root

E - Third

G - Fifth

D - Ninth

 

Most oftern, the ninth (D in this case) is to be voiced in the same octave as the triad on a C (add9) chord.

 

But remember that the ninth functions as the ninth no matter what octave it appears in!

[henryrobinett]

You can also think of C2 (C - D - G) as a Gsus triad in 2nd inversion. But C(add2) includes the 3rd, E.

[petros]

Yes ( C D G ) is like a compact version of 4th voicing (D G C ). Joe Sample and George Duke like these voicings and voice melody with parralel "Add 2 " voicngs.

[petros]

Yes ( C D G ) can be like a compact version of a 4th voicing (D G C ). Joe Sample, George Duke and fusion players like these compact voicings and sometimes voice melodies with parallel "Add 2 " voicings.

[Analogaddict]

Originally posted by Synthbro:

But remember that the ninth functions as the ninth no matter what octave it appears in!

Amen!

 

/J nas

[Dave Horne]

There are times when, at least for me, it's easier to actually read manuscript than chord symbols. For the most part, symbols are pretty clear though.

 

I remember reading big band charts where the arranger would write every alteration for every chord (with four chords per measure) and it would be so tiring to read. (If the band covered the parts, I would not play and just follow along. They didn't pay me per note or per chord fortunately.)

 

Yea, C add2, omit3 or no3 ... takes up a lot of real estate. Maybe we need a symbol to indicate a note that is omitted. The minus symbol would not work since it flats a note and would only add to the confusion. I have no suggestions unless everyone can agree on a symbol for omission.

 

Maybe we could use the * (asterisk) sign to indicate an omission? I"m looking at my computer keyboard and there ain't much there to use.

 

Has this issue been addressed by music publishers?

[Dave Horne]

But remember that the ninth functions as the ninth no matter what octave it appears in!

 

Octave equivalence rules!

[marino]

I've seen the C-D-G chord notated as "Csus2" - the logic seems to be that the 2nd takes the place of the third, much like in "sus4".

Maybe it's not standard (what is in chord notation?), but it makes sense to me.

[bluemed]

How we should notate Csus2, Cadd9, C9, Dsus, Dsus/C, Gsus, etc. really depends on how we are using the chord -- if it is functioning as a V chord, modified II chord, etc. When I look at chords in a chart I find it most helpful to look at what chords preceed it and what chords follow and only then decide how I am going to think about C-D-G as well as what notes to play or not play from the indicated chord symbol. Music is such a fun game.

[Dave Horne]

What Marino suggested makes perfect sense (and I wish I would have said it first). Csus2 is the solution for this situation.

[coyote]

Yeah, it works. Except that now we have to specify sus2, because ordinarily if you write Csus it is understood as C7sus4.

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

What Marino suggested makes perfect sense (and I wish I would have said it first). Csus2 is the solution for this situation.

[petros]

"But remember that the ninth functions as the ninth no matter what octave it appears in!"

 

And what does that really mean? How exactly is a 9th supposed to "function"?

Called a 9 or a 2, it's the same note but perhaps in a different location.

 

I use the "add 2 no 3rd" chords to voice parallel under melodies with, like with parallel 4th chords. A lot of fusion guys use these in parallel. It's like voicing in parallel 5ths with a whole step inserted above the root.

 

I also often use "add 2, 3rd included" instead of Major 7th chords. (example in F : F G A C)

[Dasher]

Praise Gsus!!! And play it your way...

 

If you need specific notes, that's why we have staff paper.

 

Dasher

[Griffinator]

Typically when a 2nd is added to a chord in that situation, it's notated as a "sus2" or a "suspended 2nd" chord. In this instance, the 2 is used as a "passing" tone, not a primary chord tone.

 

If the 2nd is a primary function of the chord, it's referred to as a 9th, and the chord would be an (x)9.

[Steve LeBlanc]

And what does that really mean? How exactly is a 9th supposed to "function"?

Called a 9 or a 2, it's the same note but perhaps in a different location.

Well you might as well say NONE of it matters, which is true in some ways. FWIW, it's about the relationship harmonically...C(add9) - or however you choose to notate it - is a scale/key center(fixed or momentary). It doesn't really mean much else but it is very important to be conscious of IMO...more in regards to ear training than anything. I mean there's obviously good reason that C6 is totally different than C13...the point is consistency. If you want to be consistent you should always refer to a 9 as a 9...calling it a 2 implies a passing tone like Griff says...calling a 9 a 2 in that context just isn't logical.

 

But, it's NOT a big deal, of course.

[Dave Pierce]

Myself, I kind of *like* the ambiguity of unclear chord notation in charts or lead sheets. It leaves some room for interpretation, giving the player a chance to exercise a little creativity.

 

If a tune is such that every single note must be individually and unambigiously specified, then it should be written rather than charted anyway. IMO.

 

--Dave

[Synthbro]

If I can clear up some of this confusion, I'll try.

 

Rule number one is that all chords come from scales (and not vice versa).

 

Another important rule to remember is that a note in a scale can not function as a chord tone and a tension at the same time!!

 

In the simplest cases, Chord tones are the root-3rd-5th-7th from the derivative scale where as tensions (sometimes called color tones or extentions) are 9th-11th-and 13th.

 

If you are building the chord from the bottom up in thirds (tertially), then the chord tones exist in the first octave and the tensions exist in the next octave higher.

 

There are some other tensions other than 9-11-13, but I feel they are beyond the scope of this discussion for now.

 

Now let's discuss the possible chords built from standard scales.

 

There are six possible triads that contain a root - third - and fifth (except the two suspended triads which replace the third with either the 4th or the second).

 

In all triads, notes function as chord tones and not tensions.

 

1. The major triad (built from the major scale) contains root - third - and fifth. C - E - G. I prefer the chord symbol "C maj."

 

2. The major triad (built from any of the 3 minor scales) contains root - flat third - and fifth. C - Eb - G. I prefer the chord symbol "C min."

 

3. The diminished triad (built from the whole - half symmetric diminished scale) contains root - flat third - and flat fifth. C - Eb - Gb. I prefer the chord symbol "C dim or Co".

 

4. The augmented triad (built from the whole tone or the lydian augmented scales) contains root - third - and sharp fifth. C - E - G#. I prefer the chord symbol "C aug or C+".

 

5. The Suspended 4th triad (built from either the major or 3 minor scales) contains root - fourth - and fifth. C - F - G. I prefer the chord symbol "Csus or Csus4". In this case, remember that the fourth (F) functions as chord tone 2 and not as tension eleven. Tension eleven is not possible on a Sus4 chord. Remember that the sus4 chord can easily resolve to either major or minor because the only difference between the first five notes of any major or minor scale (based on the same root) is the third. The same holds true for the next triad.

 

6. The Suspended 2nd triad (built from either the major or 3 minor scales) contains root - second - and fifth. C - D - G. I prefer the chord symbol "Csus2". (The chord symbol Csus usually assumes you mean sus4.) In this case, remember that the second (D) functions as chord tone 2 and not as tension nine. Tension nine is not possible on a Sus 2 chord.

 

Now....

 

These six triads expand themselves into twelve seventh chords.

 

01. CMaj7 C - E - G - B

02. CMin7 C - Eb - G - Bb

03. C7 (Dominant) C - E - G - Bb

04. CMin(maj7) C - Eb - G - B

05. Cmin7(b5) C - Eb - Gb - Bb

06. C dim7 C - Eb - Gb - Bbb

07. C aug7 C - E - G# - Bb

08. C maj7(#5) C - E - G# - B

09. C7(sus4) C - F - G - Bb

10. Cmaj7(sus4) C - F - G - B

11. C7(sus2) C - D - G - Bb

12. Cmaj7(sus2) C - D - G - B

 

Hopefully you can see that my system for chord symbol notation is not ambiguous.

I never use uppercase and lowercase roots to indicate major or minor. Never!

 

The original chord mentioned in this thread (C9) is based on the C7 chord. This type of seventh chord is also known as a "dominant seventh chord" because it is the diatonic 7th chord based on the fifth note of the major - harmonic minor or melodic minor scales. It's expected resolution produces the most "dominantly" used chord progression - V7 to I major or I minor.

 

In the case of C9, the notes played are:

C - root

E - third

G - fifth

Bb - flat seven

D - nine

 

Now...

 

C (add9) does not contain any seventh:

C - root

E - third

G - fifth

D - nine

 

The voicing most often played is C - D - E - G all in one octave.

 

In fact, the rule is the if you want to add the ninth to a triad, you include "add9" in parenthesis after the root and chord type.

 

Examples are:

C maj (add9)

C min (add9)

 

I didn't go into as much detail about the tensions available on the 12 types of seventh chords as that's a big subject and goes beyond just 9ths - 11ths & 13ths.

 

We'll leave that for another time.

 

Hopefully this helps,

 

Larry Hopkins (Synthbro)

 

Staff composer for SONY, WB & Universal

Formerly of Kurzweil Music Systems

Magna Cum Laude - Berklee College of Music (Boston) & New England Conservatory of Music

[henryrobinett]

Great Larry Synthbro Dude! I like. I like. Except I prefer the small "m" for minor chords but whatever. At a quick glance it's less confusing, I think.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Synthbro...I felt a little bad about not being able to explain it better.

[Llarion]

Synthbro RULES!!!!

 

I love chord theory... and I love big tone cluster chords too..

 

I call the suspended 2nd triad the 'Official Praise and Worship' chord, especially when played on a 12 string guitar... Rich, lovely, full of body, but lacking in tonality (unless you want to get into 2nd and 3rd harmonic-influenced "implied tonality"... )

 

We haven't even begun to talk about voicing cheats on extended chords. But voicing choices are very subjective, and probably don't belong in a more fact-based discussion.

 

But I love this stuff. GREAT digest, Larry!!!!

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by petros:

"But remember that the ninth functions as the ninth no matter what octave it appears in!"

 

And what does that really mean? How exactly is a 9th supposed to "function"?

)

A nine "functions by wanting to go somewhere else so it gives the chord a lot of motion.

 

When you play it as a 2 there is much less desire for a resolution. To my ears, if you play C7(add2) as C D E G B9, its the C that wants to descend to Bb, while the nonth remains where it is.

 

Bb D E G is a standard piano voicing for a C9 chord.

 

The sus2 (which lacks the third) chord is really useful as a pivot chord. No doubt because of the weakened tone centre.

[Over The Edge]

Let's add some notation so us 'real' musicians can better understand (just kidding) .

 

FL

www.franklucas.net

[Synthbro]

Byrd man writes: A nine "functions by wanting to go somewhere else so it gives the chord a lot of motion.

 

My reply:

The motion (or want of resolution) of the ninth you hear is certainly true as a melodic component.

 

In a harmonic setting, the ninth can also certainly exist within the final resolution chord of any classical, pop and/or jazz piece. Lots of Jazz recordings end on dominant seven with the 9th - #11 and 13 within the final resolution chord!

 

Byrd man also writes: When you play it as a 2 there is much less desire for a resolution. To my ears, if you play C7(add2) as C D E G B9, its the C that wants to descend to Bb, while the ninth remains where it is. Bb D E G is a standard piano voicing for a C9 chord.

 

My reply:

Not to be a wise ass or know-it-all, but perhaps you didn't click or agree with the earlier thread in which I stated that "a note can not function as a chord tone and a tension at the same time".

 

Again, to some this is only nomenclature (or how we name our notes).

 

But I think it helps to define exactly what we mean to musicians who are attempting to fufil the composers intent.

 

In other words, if the chord in question is C7 then the note "D" can only function as a tension 9, not a chord tone 2.

 

In order for "D" to function as chord tone 2 above the root C, it can only happen on a C(sus2) triad, a C7(sus2) chord or a Cmaj7(sus2) chord in which there is no chord tone 3rd present.

 

BTW - Your Bb - D - E - G is a nice voicing. It assumes (as good jazz piano voicings should) that the bass player is playing the root or at least the brain is filling the root in. You could also expand the voicing by substituting the 13th or flat 13 as a replacement for the 5th. The decision of using 13 or flat 13 depends on the derivative scale of the moment you have chosen to improvise with.

 

In any good jazz left hand voicing, the 3rd and the 7th are absolutely necessary to guide the ear as to the chord quality. (That's why Berklee further defines these chord tones as the "Guide Tones". The only time that the 5th is absolutely necessary within a voicing is on a triad or seventh chord that contains flat five or sharp five as a chord tone (i.e. C dim. triad - C aug triad - Cmin7(b5) - C dimn7 - C+7 and Cmaj7(#5).

 

The voicing that you had as C D E G Bb is not a common jazz one hand voicing because (as I previously stated) the root is best left to the bass player or to be left out completely. When the root is not played by a bass player, the listener's brain will still fill in the root without you playing it! I don't honestly think that the root feels the need to move. After all, if you move the root, you have a completely different chord, right?

 

 

Byrd man also writes: The sus2 (which lacks the third) chord is really useful as a pivot chord. No doubt because of the weakened tone center.

 

My reply:

I feel that the (sus2) pivots well because of the lack of the third (which means it can not be identified as being major or minor - the two most common tonalities).

 

The tone center is defined by the "root" of the diatonic key of the moment. So if you are playing C(sus2) in the key of C, then there is no weakness of that root as being the key center. However, when no third is present, the expected resolution of C(sus2) in the key of C is just about to any other chord which could be diatonic or non-diatonic to the key. This is why it also can be the perfect chord for a direct modulation!

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I hope everyone feels that it's important to be clear about how we notate chords.. If the session player wants to deliberately place his own substitute chord or voicing in place of the composer's intention, then he "might" come up with something better. It just depends on the situation and the composer. Some composers are laidback about it and let the rhythm section handle it. Other are real note for note sticklers.

 

One situation you really have to be careful about is substituting your own chord or voicing when you have more harmonic or melodic material played by instruments other than the rhythm section.

 

If you see a Cmin7 on the chart and you add a flat five to the voicing right when the french horn play natural five, then (or course) you probably will turn a few heads. This is why it's a good idea to rehearse a cue even though everyone may the killer sight readers of all time. If the players are trained enough, they will hear the derivative diatonic scale that the melody and chords came from the first time out. Many players that I work with can actually do that!

 

My .02

 

Take care all,

Larry Hopkins

[petros]

"In any good jazz left hand voicing, the 3rd and the 7th are absolutely necessary to guide the ear as to the chord quality."

 

Perhaps necessary, but not absolutely necessary. Jazz pianist leave out thirds and 7ths often.

 

Mark Levine recommends these for C7 +11:

Bb D F# A _also_ F# A Bb D

(no 3rd is present in either 4 note rootless voicing)

 

C(add 2) can function like a I(i) chord without any need to resolve anywhere, since I(i) chords don't realy need resoultions.

[Synthbro]

Pertros writes:

Perhaps necessary, but not absolutely necessary. Jazz pianist leave out thirds and 7ths often.

Mark Levine recommends these for C7 +11:

Bb D F# A _also_ F# A Bb D

(no 3rd is present in either 4 note rootless voicing)

 

My response:

I very much agree with the idea - "not absolutely necessary".

 

I'm sure Mark would probably agree with me that the voicings he suggests require listeners that can not only fill in the root with their tonal memory, but also can fill in the third and the flat seventh.

 

The average jazz listener may not be able to do this. Whereas, if he/she heard the 3rd and the flat 7th supporting any and all tensions, the chord quality would easily be established.

 

Mark Levine suggests:

Bb D F# A as a C7 (#11) voicing

 

If I heard this voicing alone without any other tonal support or any previous chord, I would hear it as a Bb maj7 (#5) which is a common seventh chord based on the modes of the melodic minor.

 

In the context that Mark Levine suggests, I'm sure the voicing would be better understood somewhere within the middle of a chord progression so that the established tonal center and the previous chord could suggest C7 (#11). Right?

 

Don't ge me wrong. I completely understand that Bb D F# A would suggest flat 7 - 9th - #11 - 13th of C7 in the right context. However, all by itself it's a common seventh chord based on the third tone of the melodic minor scale. Try it with the G melodic minor scale. Play the diatonic seventh chord based on the third note of the G melodic minor and you get Bb D F# A which functions as III maj7 (#5).

 

Now, the second voicing (F# A Bb D) would be the same exact chord (III maj7 (#5)) in second inversion. This would be harder for the listener to establish as C7 (#11) because of the minor 2nd dissonance bwtween the A to Bb interval ( - but not impossible).

 

Again, I'm sure the voicing would be better understood within the middle of a chord progression somewhere so that the established tonal center and the previous chord could suggest C7 (#11).

 

These certainly could perk up advanced ears and force the listener to not only fill in the root with their tonal memory, but also fill in the third and the flat seventh.

 

In any event, I'm sure you would agree that good voice leading from the previous chord is going to help either one of these voicings.

 

I think it would be cool to actually start a song with either of these voicings and imply C7(#11) only after the fact (as the following chords would lead backwards to that implication).

 

I'd only hear it after the tonal center was established. Way cool!

 

Pertros writes:

C(add 2) can function like a I(i) chord without any need to resolve anywhere, since I(i) chords don't really need resolultions.

 

My response:

Right! - I was making the point of resolution because it was previously described as a pivot chord in which case it's going to pivot... somewhere.

 

Take care all,

Larry Hopkins

[guestuserguestuser.com]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the guys from Steely Dan came up with a name for it, because they used to use it a lot. I think the term was "Mu" (a combination of ninth and two).

 

As I recall, they came up with a notation for it: C2. The 2 would be a smaller font, and would be on the "upper level" as it were, like the way you would notate a C7 chord.

 

I like that notation because it's simple, short and to the point.

 

I don't think it has caught on yet with the jazz establishment, but it should.

 

To me, it's a C triad, where the 2 is substituting for the 3. My theory is that it comes from country piano: think of those Floyd Cramer licks where you have the C2 chord resolving to a C triad:

 

G

D

C

 

followed by

 

G

E

C

 

Except in this case, the D never resolves to an E.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Synthbro:

It's true that there is no standardization of chord symbols. This fact adds to the ambiguity or misunderstanding of the composer's intention at times during sessions.

I wouldn't say that there is no standardization. There is some standardization, but there are a lot of variations, unfortunately.

 

I have a book called Music Notation by Mark McGrain, published by Berklee Press. This is the standard taught by Berklee School in Boston. There's a section on chord symbols. I agree with his method about 90% of the way, but I disagree with some of his theory.

 

I should really write my own essay on chord notation, because I have my own method, based upon clearly thought-out principles, and years of experience.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Synthbro:

If I can clear up some of this confusion, I'll try.

 

Rule number one is that all chords come from scales (and not vice versa).

 

snip,

snip

 

Very nice post! I admire your patience at taking the time to write it! I agree with about 90% of it:

 

I would call a C major triad C, not C maj. If you call it a C, it will be understood as a C major triad.

 

I think that in chord symbol notation, the root part (C for example) should be written in a large font, and that things relating to triads (m, aug) and extensions (7, maj7, 9, 11, 13, etc), should be written in a font half the size of the root font. Triad-related stuff should be on the 'lower half', and extension-related stuff should be on the 'upper half'. This makes both logical and visual sense and helps to avoid ambiguity.

 

I agree with Henry Robinett that a C minor triad should be called Cm, and not Cmin. On charts, real estate can become an issue, so the shorter, the better. (Except for major 7th chords, which need to be written out as maj7, for reasons that would take too long to explain right now).

 

I have a major disagreement with the use of capital M to signify major vs lower-case m to signify minor (I think you mentioned in your post that you also never use capital M). It's just not necessary. I like lower-case m for minor, but upper-case M for major is not needed. If there's no lower-case m, then it's a major triad.

 

I disagree with your notation for CMaj7 and CMin7, because it's ambiguous whether the Maj and Min are referring to the 7th or the triad. I think Cmaj7 should be written Cmaj7 (where the 'maj7' is in a smaller font, on the 'upper level') and Cm7 should be written Cm7, where the m is on the lower level, and the 7 is on the upper level. To distinguish between Cm7 and Cm maj7, m (signifying a minor triad) should be on the lower level, and 7 or maj7 should be on the upper level, then there's no ambiguity.

 

I agree that Csus2 works for the CDG chord, but I think that C2 also works, and should become the standard notation for that voicing (as proposed by Donald Fagen). It takes up less real estate. And since it's an unusual voicing, it's ok for it to have an unusual notation.

 

Cm7b5 is ok, but C with an o-with-a-slash-through-it (small font, upper level) takes up less real estate. Likewise, C dim7 can be replaced by C with an o (small font, upper level).