Reason Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Hey guys, I need to study some songs that contain a II-V progression in harmonic minor. So far I've only found Moloko's "Bring it back", but I need some more songs to practice that contain this progression. If you know any of this songs that have this progression in it, please post the title (and author). That would help me a lot. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 _Any_ song in a minor key would suffice, n'est pas?? Practice improvising (in all 14 minor keys) using the time tested ii7 (half diminished 7th), V7, i progression. (dm7b5, G7, Cm ... as an example) You can practice 'tunes', but the tune is really just a melody over harmonic changes. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Assuming you're working in a jazz context: "Blue Bossa" "Autumn Leaves" "Minority" (more difficult) Any minor blues ("Birk's Works", for example) Don't forget to transpose them in other keys. Carlo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 OK, since you capitalized both chords, I have to question what you're referring to. Do you mean Major 2 (as in F# major in e minor scale) and Major 5 (as in B major in same scale)? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reason Posted September 12, 2003 Author Share Posted September 12, 2003 Thanks for your help already guys, I've got to play about 3 songs in this progression for some other students next week so I've really got some practicing to do. And to answer your question Griffinator, when in E minor scale, I'm talking about F#7b5 and B7/b9 I didn't know that it made a difference when using caps or not using them, sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Ahhh. F#7b5 is a diminished chord. Minors and diminished chords should always be lower case when expressing Roman notation. Ex: Key of G Major - chord forms I----ii---iii--IV---V----vi---vii G(M)-A(m)-B(m)-C(M)-D(M)-E(m)-F#(dim) Easier to keep everything straight that way. Of course, you're more than welcome to use a Major 2 chord (with a slew of accidentals) in a harmonic minor key, but it's not exactly what I'd refer to as a common practice. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Originally posted by Griffinator: Ahhh. F#7b5 is a diminished chord. Minors and diminished chords should always be lower case when expressing Roman notation.Yes. But I think you meant F#min7b5 is a diminished chord. BTW a great study in minor ii - Vs is Monk's "San Francisco Holiday (Worry Later)". Kinda nutty though. Definitely not beginner stuff - or typical. You know, it's Monk. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Ahh - you are correct, sir. So in this particular case, someone is actually engaging a "blue" note in their chord flavor in the harmonic minor? Strange. Interesting, though. I'll have to try it out. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementia13 Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 That's actually the common minor ii-V7-i progression in jazz tunes. The m7b5 is often referred to as a "half-diminished" chord, and is often symbolized by a circle with a slash drawn through it. Think it through, and you'll see how those three chords- ii7b5-V7b9-i - fit the harmonic minor scale. "All The Things You Are", "Autumn Leaves", and "But Beautiful", among many others, are full of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Originally posted by Griffinator: Ahh - you are correct, sir. So in this particular case, someone is actually engaging a "blue" note in their chord flavor in the harmonic minor? Strange. Interesting, though. I'll have to try it out.No blue notes. Just tones that occur naturally in the E harmonic minor scale. E F# G A B C D# E F#m7b5 = F# A C E B7 = B D# F# A All scale tones. No accidentals. The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Dan - the example mentioned was F#7b5, not F#m7b5. Therefore, the chord form would be F# A# (the blue note in e minor), C, E. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Originally posted by dementia13: That's actually the common minor ii-V7-i progression in jazz tunes. The m7b5 is often referred to as a "half-diminished" chord, and is often symbolized by a circle with a slash drawn through it. Think it through, and you'll see how those three chords- ii7b5-V7b9-i - fit the harmonic minor scale. "All The Things You Are", "Autumn Leaves", and "But Beautiful", among many others, are full of these.See above. He cited a II7b5, not a ii7b5. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Seems like a lot of typos in this thread How about adding: "What Is This Thing Called Love" "You Don't Know What Love Is" "Black Orpheus" "A Night In Tunisia" "Round Midnight" Note: I don't think "All The Things You Are" has much in the way of "ii7b5 V7b9 i" in minor. It's mostly ii V I in Ab major, C Major, G Major and E Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Originally posted by Griffinator: Originally posted by dementia13: That's actually the common minor ii-V7-i progression in jazz tunes. The m7b5 is often referred to as a "half-diminished" chord, and is often symbolized by a circle with a slash drawn through it. Think it through, and you'll see how those three chords- ii7b5-V7b9-i - fit the harmonic minor scale. "All The Things You Are", "Autumn Leaves", and "But Beautiful", among many others, are full of these.See above. He cited a II7b5, not a ii7b5. Okay, well, I'm not SURE what dementia meant, but the lower case "ii" implies a minor third, and he seems to use lower case for the "ii" chord in the section that you quoted. I didn't see mention of a II7b5, but what the heck? Either would work. The difference would be subtle. The circle of fifths structure is pretty flexible with majors and minors. The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Just for the record, in the key of E minor (or e minor, if you prefer), a ii7 chord is F# A C E or an F# half diminished 7th chord. This can be written several ways - iio7 with a line through that o or F#m7b5. Some of us also grew up with Am6 /F# to denote the same chord function. The minor 6th way of writing seemed easier for some at the time and didn't take into consideration that most chords (at least in traditional harmony) are constructed in thirds. When I grew up a minor 7th chord with flatted 5th was a bit scary to consider. (In traditional harmony we have other choices of ii7 chords in minor which take into consideration the various flavors of minor keys and their associated scales. For the most part, a half diminished 7th chord in minor is on the mark for jazz playing. The final judge in all music, of course, is your ears. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reason Posted September 12, 2003 Author Share Posted September 12, 2003 Thanks for all the help !! The progressions in the songs listed are beautiful, I wish I started listening to jazz sooner. This thread definitely learned me that I should do a lot more about my knowledge in music theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 originally posted by griffinator: Ahhh. F#7b5 is a diminished chord. Minors and diminished chords should always be lower case when expressing roman notation. I let this pass when I posted because I thought it might have been a typo. Some folks write F#m7b5 (or F#m7-5) or f#m7b5. Both you and Henry labeled that as a diminished chord when in fact it is a half diminished chord. I'm mentioning this just so Reason doesn't get further confused. I personally prefer to use capital letters whether or not it's major, minor, augmented or demented. The second lower case letter or symbol settles any discussion. This is not a rule, just a personal preference. If you write it one way, it makes sense to keep doing it just for the sake of consistency. When using Roman numerals I prefer to use lower case numerals for minor and diminished and larger for major and augmented (so much for consistency, huh?), but I have seen just large case numerals as well. No hard and fast rules. I've changed my thinking about jazz chord notation over the years. Since I'm playing my own notation, I write Cm for Cm7. I know when to add a 7th or when not to and it makes it easier on the eyes when reading four chords in one measure ... and saves ink. (Cø7 is the same for me as Cø. Since I'm reading it, I know the 7th of the chord is understood and doesn't need to notated.) No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 A good way to practice scales and arpeggios is to practice them over a ii-V-I progression - lh & rh. "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 "Alone Together" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementia13 Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Uh, sorry, I misread that, and maybe just assumed that it was an F#m7b5. "Alone Together" is the other one I was trying to think of- it's full of minor ii-V-i's. I stand by "All the Things.." though- it's maybe not the best example, but they're present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Originally posted by Dave Horne: originally posted by griffinator: Ahhh. F#7b5 is a diminished chord. Minors and diminished chords should always be lower case when expressing roman notation. I let this pass when I posted because I thought it might have been a typo. Some folks write F#m7b5 (or F#m7-5) or f#m7b5. Both you and Henry labeled that as a diminished chord when in fact it is a half diminished chord. I'm mentioning this just so Reason doesn't get further confused. I personally prefer to use capital letters whether or not it's major, minor, augmented or demented. The second lower case letter or symbol settles any discussion. This is not a rule, just a personal preference. If you write it one way, it makes sense to keep doing it just for the sake of consistency. When using Roman numerals I prefer to use lower case numerals for minor and diminished and larger for major and augmented (so much for consistency, huh?), but I have seen just large case numerals as well. No hard and fast rules. I've changed my thinking about jazz chord notation over the years. Since I'm playing my own notation, I write Cm for Cm7. I know when to add a 7th or when not to and it makes it easier on the eyes when reading four chords in one measure ... and saves ink. (Cø7 is the same for me as Cø. Since I'm reading it, I know the 7th of the chord is understood and doesn't need to notated.)Sure. The bit about caps is when using Roman notation - II is major, ii is minor for a "2" chord. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Originally posted by Dave Horne: Both you and Henry labeled that as a diminished chord when in fact it is a half diminished chord. Yeah, yeah. I realized this after I wrote it but was too lazy to go back and correct it. Agree with everything else you wrote about it. ø = ø7, Cm = Cm7 (not really but it's understood when applicable). ?=Maj7th (that's a Coltrane shorthand I believe). Yes and back in the day the Cø7 (Cmin7b5) was called Ebmin/Cbass. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 dementia13, hmmm... Where are the "ii V harmonic minor" chords in "All The Things You Are"? I guess you are alterimg the chords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Originally posted by henryrobinett: ?=Maj7th (that's a Coltrane shorthand I believe).Oops! Suppose to be a triangle. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Henry, <<>> Is that Ebmin over a Cb your ass ... ? No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 LOL! Smart ASS! Eb minor triad over C bass note. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Henry, are you up early or just late to bed? It's 11:15 AM here and you're 9 hours earlier. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Originally posted by petros: dementia13, hmmm... Where are the "ii V harmonic minor" chords in "All The Things You Are"? I guess you are alterimg the chords.The only ii V in minor I can come up with would be coming out of the bridge setting up the Fm at the begining of the last section. Everyone seems to use different changes at that point. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementia13 Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 My half bad. The ends of the verses and beginning of the bridge use half-diminished ii-Vs, but they resolve to major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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