petros Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I hooked up my Yamaha P120 direct to my Roland VS-880 for recording some demos and there is "buzzy whine" after you trigger a note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Martin Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 What did you have the P120 hooked up to? What kind of Mixer/recording device? Do you notice this noise in headphones? -Mike Martin Casio Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 Recording direct to the Roland VS-880 with high quality gold tipped monster cable from the P120 RCA output jacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Martin Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Unfortunately, you may have a problem with your P120 which may need to checked by a technician. I checked several P120's here in the office and in our lab, none exhibit a "buzzy whine". Assuming that there are no other problems with your configuration such as ground loops, or bad cables I would recommend taking it to a service center. -Mike Martin Casio Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opp Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I noticed the same thing with the P90 I guess another artifact of the cheaper output chips compared to the P250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 I am on my way out to GC and a couple of friends houses who have P120's with my Sony headphones. I will report back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 That does not sound right. Yamaha signals are usually really clean. You ought to get it worked on. Please let us know how this ends up - you just about had me talked into buying one myself! "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Originally posted by petros: I hooked up my Yamaha P120 direct to my Roland VS-880 for recording some demos and there is an awful "buzzy whine" fuzz in all the samples after you trigger a note. Sounds like a synch problem. If you are running the recorder at 44.1 try 48Khz. Or vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 I tested some other P120s and they all had a bit of buzz after triggering a note. It was hard to notice in the noisy store. I had to turn up the Fretless Bass Brightness to hear it clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketcase Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Dude, is that how you judge your pianos? You find an auxillary sound turn and the treble up all the way. I went to Sam Ash today after reading this (yes with 7506's) and couldn't hear any problems with the piano sound. No, I didn't play the bass sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 I said turning up the Brightness is the easiest way to hear the noise, not the only way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketcase Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I've been looking into the P120 and the P250 for a while now, I'm waiting to hear the Motif ES before I make up my mind. I listened pretty critically to the Piano sounds today using headphones and could not find buzzing...or any sonic problem that would cause me not to want to use it in a recording situation. To judge the quality of the P120 by turning the treble up all the way and playing an auxillary sound is not how I'd judge the instrument. To say that this product is useless is a bit of a stretch. Yes the P250 is quieter, but I expect that for the price. The P120 is first and foremost a digital piano. The piano sounds are solid and so are the EPs. Its like saying the Andromeda is useless because its acoustic guitar sounds suck. Look for $1,000 bucks the P120 is one heck of an instrument but I don't see why you get so hung up on comparing the consistancy of its built in speakers or the noise that may exist in the bass samples. Those aren't studio monitors, they're 10watt multimedia speakers, and the bass probably isn't meant to be played with the treble all the way up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opp Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I rented a P90 brought it home ran it through my quiet mixer and amp , set the gain correctly ,eq flat and played and noticed the noise right away it's not subtle.To my ears it sounds like general hiss , just like when you have a noisy signal gated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 That could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by petros: I hooked up my Yamaha P120 direct to my Roland VS-880 for recording some demos and there is an awful "buzzy whine" fuzz in all the samples after you trigger a note. Play a chord on the EP2 and each note compounds the buzz. It is practically useless for featured recording unless you hide it in a noisy mix. The P120 is for gigs and practice, not recording.(Are you talking about the beginning of the note, or the trailing end of a sustained note? In either case, I think you're exaggerating this. I have listened to the P120 over a variety of pretty-good-quality monitoring systems, including my AKG K240M headphones, which are pretty good, and I don't hear any buzzy whine noise, it sounds very clean. Could you please be more specific about what it is you think you're hearing? Perhaps this sound you're hearing comes from the recorder you're using? For a very serious recording project, wouldn't you want to go to a studio with a very good piano? You said this was for a demo - the P120 seems to me to be very adequate for that task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyMan035 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Hate to say it, but I think Petros is right. I could hear what he's talking about through my headphones this morning. I usually run through a Peavy 300 KB/A; I never really noticed the noise before, but the it's definatley there. Sort of a white noise, high frequency hiss. It's very minimal on the pianos, especially if you've got the volume and brightness less than max. It won't be a major problem for me since I'm usually live with my band. Recording may be a different situation. And I would guess all boards give you some hiss when you max out the volume and EQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketcase Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 So whats the deal? It has some hiss, or a buzz? Which is it? Sure I heard some hiss and the P250 is MUCH quieter, but there is nothing unusable about the P120. This is a bit much if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by KeyMan035: Hate to say it, but I think Petros is right. I could hear what he's talking about through my headphones this morning. I usually run through a Peavy 300 KB/A; I never really noticed the noise before, but the it's definatley there. Sort of a white noise, high frequency hiss. It's very minimal on the pianos, especially if you've got the volume and brightness less than max.Can you describe in more detail what it is you're hearing? Like, is it constant, is it at the beginning of a note only, is at the end of the sustained note only, etc. etc. Right now, I find the descriptions too vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyMan035 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Can you describe in more detail what it is you're hearing? Plug a set of headphones into a P120 and select voice "E. bass". Chose it's variation. Turn the volume and the brightness to max. Start playing. You'll hear a white noise like buzz that lasts the duration of the sample. It starts when you hit the note and stops when you release. Once you notice it, you can hear it faintly in almost all of the voices. It lessens as you turn down the brightness / volume and it's overshadowed by the voice itself. It's similar to the "airy", "fuzzy" noise you could get from an analog synth. I hear it best through headphones and minimally through an amp. That's my best description. Do I ever play my 120 like that? No. Will it ever affect my sound in my band? No. Is the 120 a great piano worth every penny? Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 Like what "Keymano35" said in the previous post. He described it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 There is a review on Harmony Central from 2/25/2003 mentions the noise in the P80: http://216.239.57.104/search ?q=cache:Q0c_RyAFe3IJ:www.harmony-central.com/Synth/Data/Yamaha/P80-01.html+Yamaha+P120+,+hiss,+noise,+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 dbl. post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by petros: Here is a review at Harmony Central from 2/25/2003 that twice mentions the noise in the P80:Yeah, but those are reviews of a P80, and I thought we were talking about P120? Besides, who cares what some unknown person hears, who is not here to participate in this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by petros: Exactly what "Keymano35" said in the previous post. He described the noise perfectly. I add that the noise is a problem when recording exposed parts and when listend to with good headphones or monitors in a quiet environment. In other words in the realm of "professional recording." The P250 would be neccessary for professional recording situations where noise is an issue, in my opinion.I just performed this so-called 'test' with the fretless bass. In order to get it loud enough to hear this noise, I had to patch it through my mixer and turn everything up to maximum volume. I can hear a faint noise floor, at around 10k hz (rough guess). Is that what you're talking about? Or are you talking about DAC detritus, as though it were not dithered? But there is no way this is "as loud as the bass sample" as you originally claimed. It is maybe 1% or 2% as loud as the bass sample, and in order to hear it, I have to turn the instrument up to eardrum-shattering levels. I find it to be an extremely clean signal. I still don't really understand what it is your talking about. If it's the non-dithered sound you're talking about, you'll find that in just about every sampler and rompler if you turn it up loud enough. Including, I would guess, the P250, although I haven't actually tried that. But I've heard that kind of noise in every sampler and rompler I've used, if I turn it up loud enough, and listen hard enough. I still think that this is a very minor problem, and I'll bet you'd find the same problem (perhaps to a slightly lesser extent) in the P250. Have you tried this 'test' on a P250 by the way, and have you tried recording the P250? But to say this renders it "useless for recording", or even "somewhat useless for recording", is a gross exaggeration, in my opinion, and does not take into account the fact that this problem exists in nearly all digital gear, to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mte Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Yeah some people can hear better and some worse..My opinion is that P120 is perfect for live gigging and perhaps some recording where you need a bright piano. BUT in a song that uses much piano ("pianoish" pop song, jazz and of course classical music) I would go with some really good giga samples played on keyboard action of my P120 at least, if a real piano wouldn't be available. So for a really pro piano sound, I would try to find a studio with a good real piano, and if that not possible i'd go with giga samples. That's why I don't care about the problem Petros has. However, I am sure going to check for that "buzz" when I next play on my P120 (don't have it here at home). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by mte: Yeah some people can hear better and some worse.. My hearing is just fine, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan O Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by petros: One of the managers at GC happen to say they don't recommend the P120 or the P90 for recording. Are you saying that a manager at GC could accually talk ? www.esnips.com/web/SongsfromDanO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opp Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 I,m surprised to see this thread is still going.I thought everyone would go have a listen hear the noise ,rant to Yamaha a bit and that would be it.My earlier posts were from memory so I dcided to go back in the studio and get a fresh impression.Yamaha P90 ,to canaire cable ,to Mackie sr24,to HK citation amp,to tannoy nearfields.Volume on piano set to the middle,set the gain on the mixer so it would hit +3 db when played loud.This sounds like a keyboard mag shootout.Brightness slider set to the middle real world monitoring level.Striking single notes in the C4 range at a medium velocity and there it is."Buzzy wine" is a good description.About 20 milliseconds after the initial sample in comes this sound, does a slight crescendo then settles in with the sample.It reminds me of a violin with the slower attack. Petros stated it wouldn't work in a recording .I'll go one step further,I think this would be obvious in a live situation once the volumes turned up doing, lets say, a piano vocal ballad? Cutting at about 7 khz seems to take the edge off.If players on this forum have a hard time hearing this I will never worry about fixing small errors in my recordings ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by opp: I,m surprised to see this thread is still going.I thought everyone would go have a listen hear the noise ,rant to Yamaha a bit and that would be it.My earlier posts were from memory so I dcided to go back in the studio and get a fresh impression.Yamaha P90 ,to canaire cable ,to Mackie sr24,to HK citation amp,to tannoy nearfields.Volume on piano set to the middle,set the gain on the mixer so it would hit +3 db when played loud.This sounds like a keyboard mag shootout.Brightness slider set to the middle real world monitoring level. Striking single notes in the C4 range at a medium velocity and there it is."Buzzy wine" is a good description.About 20 milliseconds after the initial sample in comes this sound, does a slight crescendo then settles in with the sample.It reminds me of a violin with the slower attack. Petros stated it wouldn't work in a recording .I'll go one step further,I think this would be obvious in a live situation once the volumes turned up doing, lets say, a piano vocal ballad? Cutting at about 7 khz seems to take the edge off.If players on this forum have a hard time hearing this I will never worry about fixing small errors in my recordings ever again.To me, it's not about whether I can hear what you're hearing. I'm 100% certain that I'm hearing everything there is to hear. The difference is in how we characterize this sound. You are describing it as a 'buzzy whine'. I think you must be referring to the initial, unlooped sample portion, before it settles down into the looped portion. To me, this is what a piano sounds like when the hammer strikes the string. I've been playing acoustic pianos all my life - this sample comes very close to conveying the real sound of a piano, in my opinion. So, I think what it boils down to, is that you don't particularly like the samples, or that you find them too bright, or too clangourous, or some other description. That's fine, that's your prerogative. But to describe it as a buzzy whine makes it sound like there's some sort of electric-sounding flaw, some kind of distorted sound in there that doesn't belong. I think the failure here, is a failure to adequately convey, using the English language, what it is that you don't like about what you're hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 That's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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