On and on and on....

[analogman1]

Hello all experts,

I don't know about you...but....I really think it's ridiculous the way synth manufacturers keep upgrading synths, after the "test machines" are out there a while. I've seen it most recently with the Triton, and now the Motif.

I was seriously considering a Motif last month..glad I held off...with the new one due out shortly!

Funny thing..the instruments these things try to "replicate"...such as a Hammond Organ, or a Steinway or Rhodes...have (or had) relatively *long* production cycles, with minor improvements along the way. But with synths...Gosh!!!!! I just think that the constant "upgrade this" or "download that" put them in the category of "hobby" rather than "professional".

What do you think??

Big T from NY

[Rod S]

The guys who work in MI can probably give a more specific reply, but having been on the inside of equipment manufacturers, I'm familiar with it. This situation doesn't bother me - it's unavoidable.

 

Product R&D is not only costly, but a risky proposition.

 

If a synth sells well - the company wants to make as much money on it as possible, which includes selling simplified versions and upgrades.

 

Designing a synth with tons of features gets even more expensive - you're better off trying to trim down to specs to balance the features vs cost equation. I've done this - I kept a few 'aces up my sleeve', and when the product sold well, I 'upgraded it' - eventhough I could have done it initially - at the cost of time and resources. You really don't have a choice a lot of times. It's a balance between pleasing the end customer and following a economically viable design path.

 

Is it annoying to the customer - yep. But it's how business goes. You can't really blame manufacturer's for trying to make money and keeping their jobs

 

Also, prices of electronic components drop off rapidly. A lot of times the company will upgrade an equipment since they are able to buy something better for the same price.

 

You can't really compare electronic equipment manufacturing to a piano.

 

Frankly, I'm kind of excited about this change. You don't need the latest and greatest to do your music.

[RABid]

As prices come down for the manufacturing of the electronics it is normal that they upgrade the hardware and stay within their target price range. What does bother me is this.

 

I bought my E-mu XL-7 for $1249 when it first came out. A few months later the street price dropped to $999. Then the street price goes down to $699. I guess the positive is that I could afford to pick up the P2500 PX-7 if I wish.

 

Robert

[Postman]

Originally posted by analogman1@aol.com:

Funny thing..the instruments these things try to "replicate"...such as a Hammond Organ, or a Steinway or Rhodes...have (or had) relatively *long* production cycles, with minor improvements along the way.

Well, of course. It's a much safer and easier to implement proposition. When emulating (replicating if you like) an existing instrument the job is to hit the target. With a new synth you need not only hit the target but define it as well. The latter is much harder and riskier.

I just think that the constant "upgrade this" or "download that" put them in the category of "hobby" rather than "professional".

What do you think??

The one thing the user community doesn't want to fight is manufacturers including in their designs the ability to upgrade the installed user base. It allows them to retrofit non-hardware improvements on already sold hardware. Clavia seems especially dedicated to this. Do you really want to have to buy all new hardware every time they come up with the next new feature? What this has to do with hobby vs. professional (or even what the distinction means) is beyond me.

[Tom Fiala]

Hey - I'm happy that the manufacturers are continually trying to improve their products. I'm all for progress, innovation, and improving the tools we have to work and play with. Yes, I agree - it is certainly frustrating when you've just recently spent big $$$ on the latest WhizBang 1000 keyboard, to have the 1000 "plus" edition arrive with even more exciting features, or to see the LE version show up for half the price.

 

Hopefully, in the future, more upgrades will be software based, rather than hardware based, making upgrading relatively easy, and giving instruments a longer run before they become obsolete.... or should I say, "classics".

[RABid]

And just after I posted about the price drops on the E-mu XL7 I find out that some stores are blowing them out for $499. The word around is that a new version of the XL-7 will be released. The MP-7 and PX-9 are still $699.

 

Robert

[Postman]

There's a difference between designing a system that can be upgraded when future enhancements come around and pushing system out that isn't finished. The Neuron is a case in point. The manufacturer seems to be getting musicians to unwittingly finance the development of the unit. I'm not so sanguine about that.

[Dave Bryce]

There's another aspect...it's a drag to think about, but nonetheless, it's a factor:

 

Capitalism.

 

These companies need to stay in business. They need to keep selling gear.

 

Therefore, it's imperative that they keep pumping out newer, better, and frequently cheaper products, not only to keep their revenue streams intact - if not increasing - but also to make sure that they stay ahead (or at the very least abreast) of their competitors.

 

Let's face it, it's kind of a constantly ongoing free-for-all - a constant battle to grow, gain and/or hang onto market share. Make no mistake about it - it's a factor. A big one. They need to keep selling products, and the company that can accurately predict when a product's life cycle will wane and end and have a new widget ready to replace it (ideally when they want to, not when they need to) on a consistent basis is the most likely to be successful.

 

dB

[zeronyne]

Dave, I'd have to wholeheartedly agree with you. The least efficient versions of this process are the M.I. and computer industries.

 

Those two industries could learn a little bit from car manufacturers. Very few people get pissed when the 2003 Range Rover is better than the 2001 version for the same price or less. No one buys a 944 thinking that it should be like a 911.

 

I think the problem comes from poor research into what customers are willing to do without in a "cut down" model. For example, I would much rather have the Nord Micro Modular/Nord Modular Rack choice (same engine, less polyphony and extraneous options) than the D-50/D-5 choice (flagship audio engine vs. total crap with similar name).

 

Roland and Yamaha were notorious for the over-recycling of their R&D...it invariably saturated the market and managed to anger people with a few lemons (D-5, D-10, DX-9, JX-1, etc.), but they are getting much better. Some companies, like Alesis and E-mu, did it in subtle ways. The ProFormance was actually a ProFormance plus that had been "crippled" with a jumper, I believe. I noticed that the first time the ADATs dropped in price (after a gazillion were sold), the logo on the front face changed from silkscreen to sticker. As I said, clever compromises are the name of the game.

[Jazzman]

I have a Roland JV880 rack synth unit, then came out the JV1080, then the JV5080 or something like that. The JV880 had only one sound card that you could install. But to do that you had to take it out of the rack to unscrew the top plate to switch cards. Then the JV1080 came out with a 3 card set up, then the 5080(I think) that had a 5 card setup.

 

I think it was great to see new versions of it but if it would have been easier to change out cards the new units would not sell.

 

In R&D they let you figure out the problems first, complain then they spend the rest of the R&D money to fix everything that they didn't think of.

 

When building an office building, don't put the sidewalks in yet. Open up the building and let the people that work there show you where the sidewalks need to be. Just put the concrete in the areas where the a path was made by the people going in and out of the building. Why waste money on building a sidewalk when the people won't use it.

 

Jazzman

[coyote]

Not picking on you specifically, Robert, but those who must have something the moment it hits the market are gonna spend far more $$$ than neccessary. A little patience goes a loooong way

 

Originally posted by Rabid:

And just after I posted about the price drops on the E-mu XL7 I find out that some stores are blowing them out for $499. The word around is that a new version of the XL-7 will be released. The MP-7 and PX-9 are still $699.

Robert

[RABid]

That's OK. I have never seen any other company do this. At least to that extent. Maybe that is not correct. Kurzweil did drop the price on the 2600 soon after it was released. To me the XL-7 was worth the $1250 I spent and at $499 I think it is a must have. I would almost buy a second unit at that price. If the MP7 was the same price I would grab it in a heartbeat because I don't have that ROM. If I did not like the XL7 after paying $1250 for it, then I would be upset.

 

Robert