What's a good amp with "punch" for Rhodes sound?

[petros]

What's a good amp for a Rhodes sound?

A Fender tube re-issue amp that affords the luxury of "clean tube punch"?

[petros]

How about all tube 22 watt, one 12" speaker, 42 lb, $799, Fender '65 Deluxe Reverb re-issue?

http://www.fender.com/new_repository/fender_amplifiers/images/0217400000_sm.jpg

[gearmike]

Find an old Music Man.

[jimmymio]

I would tend to disagree with the 22 watt deluxe unless you are looking only for an amp to record through. In a live situation this is just not enough juice unless you plan to be playing at cocktail jazz levels. The "gold standard" for a Rhodes has always been the Twin Reverb. This is the amp they used at Fender when they were designing, building and tuning the pianos. While guitarists always crave the black face twins, Rhodes players prefer the silver face ones. This is good because they are usually a little cheaper than the highly sought after blacks. Some players liked the Roland Jazz Chorus amp with the built in tremolo. Others hated it. It did have a signature sound to it.

In short, a Fender tube amp is preferable for this piano although certainly not the only choice. Smaller ones, will suffice for recording, but for "rock" levels, I'd look for a twin or something comparable. JP, former tech with Dyno My Piano

[Dave Horne]

How about the approach of using an excellent sound system. When I work jobs, I use a professional quality amp and mixer going through two excellent loud speakers. With this set up, _everything_ going though it sounds good, period, including CDs I bring along for the breaks.

 

If you buy am 'amp' for just a Rhodes and a singer walks by, wants to sit in and brings her own mic, you're stuck using a one trick pony and the singer won't sound that good (unless she does an impersonation of a Rhodes).

 

To extend this a bit further - what happens if you buy yet another keyboard or module, how will that sound going through your 'Rhodes amp'? See what I mean? An excellent quality sound system is bought once and works for everything.

[petros]

Thank you for your excellant replies.

I already have a pair of Mackie SRM 450s but they do not do the Rhodes justice. They do not have the dynamic response that a Fender tube amp enables. The Mackie are good for digital piano though.

I play at jazz combo volumes rather than rock band volumes and the pair of Mackie SRM 450s allow me to play loud if need be(900 watts solid state). I play a lot of Rhodes and jazz guitar duets, so maybe the Fender '65 Deluxe Reverb re-issue will suffice. I cannot use the Twin Reverb because it is heavier than I am willing to move.

[Dave Horne]

Petros, I think you might be overstating the power output of the built in amps in the Mackie 450s. I took a look at the Mackie page because I knew nothing of the 450s.

 

http://www.mackie.com/products/srm450/index.html

 

Built-in monolithic FR Series 300 watt RMS bass & 100 watt RMS mid/high amplifiers. I would think for a small club, that set up would be just fine.

[Carlito]

I could use some advice on a good guitar or bass multi effects pedal for my rhodes.They have these "amp modelers" i'm curious about. That could be another option for you too, Petros.

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

How about the approach of using an excellent sound system. When I work jobs, I use a professional quality amp and mixer going through two excellent loud speakers. With this set up, _everything_ going though it sounds good, period, including CDs I bring along for the breaks.

 

If you buy am 'amp' for just a Rhodes and a singer walks by, wants to sit in and brings her own mic, you're stuck using a one trick pony and the singer won't sound that good (unless she does an impersonation of a Rhodes).

 

To extend this a bit further - what happens if you buy yet another keyboard or module, how will that sound going through your 'Rhodes amp'? See what I mean? An excellent quality sound system is bought once and works for everything.

The problem with excellent sound systems and Rhodes pianos is that excellent sound systems are, ehm... too excellent! The Mackies will sound too clean for a Rhodes and will not give you that "bark", when you're not using a guitar like preamp. You could bring in the Fender Twin Reverb or a Roland JC120, or you could put a POD or the likes between your Rhodes and your sound system. I'm using the POD myself. Excellent, but the noise is not really great, though it's still bearable.

[Dave Horne]

My Rhodes 'barks' quite nicely through my excellent sound system. I use a sampled Rhodes with four velocity layers. I can easily adjust my 'barktitude' sensitivity by changing the velocity setting on my midi controller (an good argument for buying just one keyboard and using samples).

 

This would certainly be a justification for using sampled sounds - I am not required to buy separate sound systems to match each keyboard, ... but that is another discussion.

[eric]

I would recommend looking at one of the Speakeasy Vintage Music stereo Rhodes preamps:

 

Speakeasy Gear

 

I own the Hammond version and it is a great preamp for warming up the sound in stereo. Class A hand-wired equipment, like the old days. A very high quality shop.

 

Regards,

Eric

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

by changing the velocity setting on my midi controller

Wait a minute. Are we talking about a real Rhodes or about Rhodes samples? My experience is that Rhodes samples on good PA systems will work and that a real Rhodes is in need of guitar-like amplification.

[Dave Horne]

Superbobus, in the post of mine that you partially copied, I referred to a sampled Rhodes (and stated that).

 

I am well aware that the output of a real Rhodes sucks, I mean is weak and needs to be boosted. Most better mixers have 'trim' adjustments to boost really weak input signals. Also, there are after market companies that specialize in pre-amps to be used with Rhodes to boost the signal (and hopefully reduce the associated noise).

 

I fail to understand why anyone would want to have a collection of guitar amps ... one for this keyboard and yet another for another keyboard. It is rather limiting as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread. If a singer comes along, he or she couldn't plug into the guitar amp and expect a decent sound. Why not invest in a decent sound sytem which everyone (and every keyboard, module, etc.) could plug into. If the output of the Rhodes needs to be boosted, boost it, why buy a guitar amp specially suited for only one function.

[David Loving]

Just wonder what kind of amp is the big one that a Rhodes [don't know the model] sits on top of. Whatever sounds just like that one would be perfect - that's a great sound. Just impossible to carry around. Lately - in my old age - I don't worry about anything but portability!

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by daveloving:

Just wonder what kind of amp is the big one that a Rhodes [don't know the model] sits on top of. Whatever sounds just like that one would be perfect - that's a great sound. Just impossible to carry around. Lately - in my old age - I don't worry about anything but portability!

I believe they were called the Rhodes Satellite speakers. I used them about 25 years ago and can attest that they were heavy. They also had no built in effects such as reverb. I was not personally thrilled with the sound.

[ITGITC]

In the late 70's, early 80's when I was playing a Fender RHODES (before the DX7, and the Kurz 1000PXA rack, and the Kurz K2000, and the Kurz PC2X) I would run it through a Fender Bandmaster head and a cabinet made by RMI (Rocky Mount Instruments - remember the Electra Piano?). The outputs on the Rhodes are very similar to guitar outputs (high impedance, low signal, etc.) They benefitted from being used with a guitar preamp front end. I used the 'bright' switch too. The RMI cabinet had two 15" JBL woofers in it with a couple of organ tweeters from RMI's parent company, Allen Organ. The cabinet was OK, but nowhere near as accurate as what you find today in the Mackie SRM450 (or the JBL EON 15PAK that I'm using with my Kurz). But I got a great sound with the Fender head coupled with the 15" JBL woofers. I think the reason that I did was the input circuitry designed for passive guitar pickups PLUS the tubes for that 'growl'. The amp/speaker cabinet combination looked kinda stupid, but it did sound great.

 

If I had a real RHODES today and was playing it through my current system - the JBL EON or my Mackie 1402 mixer, Hafler power amp, EAW speaker combination, I would see about using a tube preamp for the front end. Of course Donald Fagen is still using a Rhodes through an orange MXR phase shift flanger thingy. I don't know where the signal goes from there though. I imagine it goes through a direct box to the mixing board.

 

Here is the Speakeasy preamp that another poster was referring to. I haven't heard them, so I don't know anything about the quality.

 

http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com/store.html

 

http://www.creativepages.net/speakeasy/images/preamps/rhodes-pedal-preamp.jpg

 

Good luck!

 

Gas

[David Loving]

What kind of pre-amp do you think would work best if you run a Kurzweil or Yamaha (p80) stock rhodes patch through to a pretty good sound system [Yamaha board, qsc amps] ?

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by daveloving:

What kind of pre-amp do you think would work best if you run a Kurzweil or Yamaha (p80) stock rhodes patch through to a pretty good sound system [Yamaha board, qsc amps] ?

The output of a Kurz or P80 is going to be line level & the impedance is going to match most inputs on standard mixers and line level input devices (but NOT guitar amp inputs on a Fender amp, for instance). Therefore, this is not a problem.

 

The Rhodes samples coming from these instruments have already been processed, so EQ, reverb, and other effects should already be included.

 

In my opinion, you don't need anything else. Run the Kurz or the P80 directly into the mixer and go with that. I don't think you need a tube amp to warm up a piano sample from a Kurz or P80.

 

For a quality piano sample, you'll need a clean, low-noise preamp or mixer, a beefy (and clean) stereo power amp, and an accurate speaker system with enough low end extension to convincingly reproduce those low piano or B3 organ notes (which is why you don't want to use a standard guitar amp/cabinet).

 

The Kurz or P80 have such a wide variety of great sounds built into them that it would be a shame to color every sound with an inadequate sound system. Any color should come from the manipulation of the samples within the synth and/or the addition of reverb and effects - again, usually built into the synth. (I'm referring to live sound here. If you're working in the studio where you have the use of some great outboard processors, you may want to record the patch dry and choose the reverb/effects later.)

 

I loved my Fender Rhodes, but it was heavy & I moved on when the DX7 became available. I liked the Rhodes emulation that the DX7 provided until I heard the Kurz 1000PXA rack with its grand piano, strings, and Rhodes samples. I bought the K2000 for portability although I still think its pianos sound thin. Luckily the Kurz PC2X pianos sound much better to my ears. I'm very pleased with the onboard sounds of this keyboard, however I'll hold onto the K2000 to use when the PC2X is just too big for the gig.

 

Is There Gas In The Car?

[petros]

I am playing Yamaha P120's "Rhodes" EP2 through a pair of Mackie SRM450s (400 watts each).

 

This weekend I played it through a 65 Fender Pricenton all tube amp. What a world of difference, it is shocking, I never realized how big a diference there is between solid state and tubes.

The Fender tube amp allow "clean punch". The accented notes come out so much better on the Fender tube amp than on the solid state Mackies. The tube amp me punch individual notes and really bring them out. The Mackies sound full range and clear but so lacking in "punch" they sound dull by comparison sort of lifeless. The sound Fender tube amp is much more present, round, warm, smooth, alive and the "clean punch" is worth having if accented notes are important in your solos. I thought for years it was the keyboards fault (lack of dynamic punch) now I see its a problem of the solid state amps.

[petros]

That incredible dynamic "clean punch" that only tubes provide and solid state can't, is it coming from the pre amp tubes or from the power amp tubes? Or both?

[petros]

The experts on the amp forum say that "clean punch" comes from the power tubes as does "thick crunch."

 

I thought puting a tube preamp in front of a solid state amp was too easy a solution for getting "clean" tube "punch" because everybody would be doing it if that's all there was to it.

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Originally posted by daveloving:

Just wonder what kind of amp is the big one that a Rhodes [don't know the model] sits on top of. Whatever sounds just like that one would be perfect - that's a great sound. Just impossible to carry around. Lately - in my old age - I don't worry about anything but portability!

I believe they were called the Rhodes Satellite speakers. I used them about 25 years ago and can attest that they were heavy. They also had no built in effects such as reverb. I was not personally thrilled with the sound.

The Rhodes that sits on top of the amp/speakers is the Suitcase model. It has speakers that faced forward and backward (4x12 in each direction?). The Rhodes "stereo vibrato" effect would pulsate from front to back.

 

The Super Satellite speakers are two large closed back enclosures (4x10 each?), a master with the amp and a slave with speakers only. These are meant to be used with a Stage model (the one with 4 chrome legs) to reproduce the Suitcase model "stereo vibrato" effect. However, instead of front-to-back effect of the Suitcase, the Satellite stereo vibrato pulsed from one cabinet to the other, side to side. To use the Satellites, a Stage piano would have a different internal preamp than the standard issue. I own a Mark I Stage 88 w/the Super Satellites.

 

IIRC, there was also a small yet powerful version of the Super Satellites called Janus I.

 

Here is a very good site for Rhodes info:

http://www.fenderrhodes.org/rhodes/supersite/

[petros]

Here is a good clue, some of Leo Fender's last amp designs were for Music Man amps which used solid state pre amps and tube powered amps.

 

Spec: Tube (2x 6L6) power amp, solid state preamp. 65 watt w/1x 12 speaker

 

Conclusion: "Clean tube punch" somes mostly from the power amp more so than from the preamp.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by petros:

The experts on the amp forum say that "clean punch" comes from the power tubes as does "thick crunch."

 

I thought puting a tube preamp in front of a solid state amp was too easy a solution for getting "clean" tube "punch" because everybody would be doing it if that's all there was to it.

I maintain that most of the difference in sound quality between a solid state and transistor amp is that the transistor output stage damps the speaker much better than the tube output stage. This means that the speaker "rings" more in effect acting as a sounding board.

[Superbobus]

OK Petros, I should have known. You're talking about the P120!

That's not a real Rhodes, that's a sample and it should work on all of the great solid state amps, because the sample includes that dirty sound already. Come to think of it, I'll run my P120's Rhodes through a guitar amp next time to hear the difference. That'd be cool.

BTW, do you have the silver or the black one?

[petros]

I have a little 1965 back face Fender Princeton Reverb and it clean "punches" much better than a pair of Mackie SRM 450 in terms of dynamic "punch". I am talking about "clean punch" I am not talking about overdrive distortion. It has "clean tube punch" that the Mackies do not have, the "punch" (not growl or overdrive) I get from the Mackies is about. It makes a big difference with the Yamaha P120 Rhodes sample.

 

I am not a novice. I have owned a real Fender Rhodes Suitcae 73 for ten years in the 80's. Also A Wurlitzer 200A. Also owned / gigged with 1960/70s: Fender Super Reverb, Fender Bandmaster, Princeton, Vibrolux, Les Paul Jr. Telecaster, Stewart Power amps, Ramsa speakers Roland amps, Barbettas, Mackie SRM450 pairs etc.

[petros]

38 lbs, 60 tube watts, one 12"

http://www.reverenddirect.com/reverend/amps_etc/hellhound_40_60.html

 

http://www.reverenddirect.com/reverend/images/amps_etc/HEL4060.jpg

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by petros:

http://www.reverenddirect.com/reverend/amps_etc/hellhound_40_60.html

 

http://www.reverenddirect.com/reverend/images/amps_etc/HEL4060.jpg

Nice!!

[thelonius]

Hello,

I used to run my rhodes sounds through a roland kc300(100 watts).I never liked the sound on the high registers w/ this amp.

Now,I use a Peavey Classic 30.This is a great little amp! I had no idea the difference between solid state and tubes.The distortion is awesome,as well as reverb(spring).

Hope that helps.

[keyoctave]

Originally posted by Mark Zeger:

 

The Super Satellite speakers are two large closed back enclosures (4x10 each?), a master with the amp and a slave with speakers only. These are meant to be used with a Stage model (the one with 4 chrome legs) to reproduce the Suitcase model "stereo vibrato" effect. However, instead of front-to-back effect of the Suitcase, the Satellite stereo vibrato pulsed from one cabinet to the other, side to side. To use the Satellites, a Stage piano would have a different internal preamp than the standard issue. I own a Mark I Stage 88 w/the Super Satellites.

 

Mark, I used to have the Super Satellites years ago when I had my Rhodes. I remember they had two 12" speakers in them and were rated 100 watts each............................ In lew of this discussion about 'punch' in tube vs. solid state, the Super Satellites had a solid state pre-amp and the amps in the cabs were also solid state. From what I can remember, they made the Rhodes sound good and dynamic. The best punchy sound I can remember was when I played my old whirly A-200 through a Marshall 50 watt head into a cabinet with two 12' speakers. Man, that sound kicked!