The Best thing I've seen on this tragedy so far

[Hippie]

[quote]Originally posted by OD: [b]Hey Hippie. I got a better solution...why dont you just drop a neutron bomb on the whole place so all human lifeforms are wiped away and then you can just keep all the oilwells which are the main reason you are there anyway. After that you could go back to whatever you where doing before and you wouldn´t ever have to think about anything except when to fire up your next reefer and when the next Star Trek rerun is shown.... Kill´em all OD[/b][/quote] So, you're with the Taliban? What are doing on the internet? You could be in big trouble, mister! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

[ernest828]

Well as amusing as I find your riducule about my "love" commentary, the truth is our country gives absolutely two shits about other countries. Americans are very fortunate and unquestionably, one of the luckiest civilizations on the planet. However, we came to this country and killed Indians and took advantage of their natural resources. Now all that has changed is we are the Indians. The Eastern part of the world, (which happens to be mostly 3rd World) simply wants what we have. Whats the problem? The problem is this is going to now affect you smart ass. We never had to deal with terroroism, it was always something that happened far away to people you really gave no fuck about. The problem is most of the world is jealous. We have what they want. Now that we are being "attacked", all of America comes out with their flags and proclaims just how wonderful we all are. This makes the situation even worse. This guy bin Laden is a tiny speck of the problem. The problem is beyond him and beyond terrorism. Terroroism is simply one form of this jealousy, hatred, etc... that we all feel, including the U.S. When I say love is the answer, I`m not talking about sending these people hugs and kisses as you so sarcastically joked. The answer my friends is much more difficult than the immediate solution such as bombing the hell out of many innocent people. This would surely end alot of problems and you know what, starting a nuclear war would solve all of our problems. I was not joking when I said the answer is love. We (as a world) need to end separation. This means an end to all religions, an end to labelling people as black, white, yellow, brown, jews, christians, muslims, etc... This will not happen until people let go of their ego`s. This makes finding bin Laden look easy. Ignorance is when you see yourself as different than someone else. You are no different than a Hitler, a Jesus, a bin Laden, a Mother Theresa. Your inability to try to understand this is what makes you ignorant. Your inability to see yourself as part of the whole makes you ignorant. You know what, forget this spiritual philosophical bullshit. In a thousand years, none of this shit will matter.

[WFTurner]

>>I was not joking when I said the answer is love. We (as a world) need to end separation. This means an end to all religions, an end to labelling people as black, white, yellow, brown, jews, christians, muslims, etc...<< The new world order doctrine [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] The other side of the double edged evil sword that lays before us. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Take the somewhat crude diet of bullshit and add it to the article "The Last Totalitarians" I mentioned above and then you have "the rest of the story". The new world order doctrine is nothing but a more sterile and seemingly civilized attack of evil, seemingly disguised as our saviour promising if we give in and forfit ourselves as part of the whole there will be protection and safety from the more destructive and fearful evil that we suddenly find in our homeland. Your doctrine in it's false promise is more dangerous to my neighbor than the physical dangers he might have to endure to protect his family. In protecting his family he will find the strength to withstand the evil which is in effect doing God's will. The doctrine's stripping him of his individuality and his belief's will merely result in him cowardly handing his soul to the infadels and in God's eyes he will lower than the infadels. I am ignorant and unenlightened in light of the person the doctrine would brainwash me to become. In God's eye, my ignorance is my testamony to live and accept his word. America is in a two-fronted war. Even the best of our leader's will have trouble seeing the double assault. The individual can stand back and see it clearly if he wants to see. We have all kinds of ways to communicate to our leaders and one of the great benifits of our society is if enough people communicate they will listen and consider. It'll be what is required to withstand the evil and prevail. It's not only protecting America but also taking back America. It's deciding if we'll be a sovereignty of individuals or a flock of sheep with no ego, belief or value. I remain the ignorant one. >>You know what, forget this spiritual philosophical bullshit. In a thousand years, none of this shit will matter.<< Your will stand on the same side of good or evil a thousand years... an eternity from now... as you stand now. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter [url=http://www.csonline.net/wfturner/index.html]turnermusic[/url] This message has been edited by WFTurner on 09-30-2001 at 11:12 PM This message has been edited by WFTurner on 09-30-2001 at 11:15 PM

[Hippie]

<> Ernest, please do not make false "blanket statements about people. I care very much about the welfare of ANY human being. I though you did also, a few posts back? OK, I'll admit, America has a "fringe element" of hate groups that will hate anything you give 'em, -they suck as bad as terrorists, OK? <> Yes, and I'd like to admit that the mistakes Americans made during the Indian conflict were recogonized as atrocities and we learned from it. War sucks, we know this first hand. This is why Afganastan is not currently leveled, 8,000 people in Washington are mulling over this right now in hopes the correct action is taken. God bless 'em. <> The eastern part of the world has been more than welcome to this country to come on over, set up shop, and have the same opportunities as anyone other American, in some cases better opportunities, tax breaks, etc. WTF? I'm gonna get terroized for what, they don't have as many material things as us? Money doesn't buy happiness, go tell them that, maybe they don't know yet. Oh, and by the way, I do give a fuck about people, not murderers. <> Being jealous is one thing, murdering people for it is another. That crosses the line of what is legal and what is not. Americans live by this law, and when you come here, you must live by it also. If we have to keep on chasing after murderers till the end of time, I guess that's what we'll do. <> I have no desire to bomb innocent people, only the bad guys and their croonies. This is what is taking so long in Washington, making sure we got the correct motherfuckers. Love IS the answer, just make sure you got it pointed at the right folk. <> Yea, you can go over there and tell them to end their religion 'cause you think it causes seperation. See, ernest, they like it that way, and yes, that SCUD will fit up your ass. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] <> Letting go of your ego is letting go of your pride. If Osama wasn't so proud, none of this would have happened. No? <> Nope, seeing yourself as different is recognizing you are different, why is that ignorant? The hard part is finding common ground with other people, in which I believe can be done. Oh, and there is a difference in the people you mentioned, some were murderers, some were not. <> Any way you slice it, murdering innocent people is wrong. If there is a *higher meaning* I'm am missing, I'm all ears. <> Good idea! peace, -Hippie

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by Hippie: [b] Here's an idea, we tell Israel to move to America, give them Montana, (similar climate [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] )[/b][/quote] You know, that's an excellent idea! Let's close Isreal and transport all of their citizens to Wyoming. Hell, WE'RE not using it. It's a lot bigger than the pathetic little piece of dust that they have now. Put the Wailing Wall on a boat and ship it over to Jerusalem, WY. If the Israelis get greedy and want a little more land, they can invade Utah and have a little holy war with the Mormons. Will it change anything? I don't know, but maybe it's worth a try. Maybe the Middle Eastern terrorist organizations are like the drug lords. Maybe we just need to take away their ability to sell their product. Make drugs legal and cheap (if not free), and the drug lords go out of business. Move Israel out of the Middle East, and you take away the thorn in the claw of all of those bloodthirsty lions. If Saddam launches an invasion on his neighbors or gasses his citizens, or if ben Laden launches a terror campaign on Iranian Shiites on Arab or North African "infidel" governments, far be it from the Great Satan to interfere with regional conflicts. The problem is that the infighting could make Rwanda look like a minor traffic accident. Millions of innocent people could very likely be slaughtered in the crossfire, while the various powerful factions bicker and fight to determine who takes the spoils. The fundamental problem is that the human race is acting like a bunch of two-year-olds with dangerous weapons. The whole world needs to look itself in the mirror and decide, once and for all, to GROW UP. I hate to disparage anybody's religion, but Christianity, Judaeism, Islam, etc., they don't make it a perfect world. They don't make the world a better place. They don't make people love their neighbor. They encourage this, but the application is optional and left to the individual. Unfortunately, most individuals don't comply fully. As long as people continue to disrespect each other, religion can and will be used as a means for division, a tool for pandering to hateful emotions, and an excuse to commit attrocities. Maybe we need a new super-religion, a foundational belief system that supports all of our other religions. This super-religion has only one commandment - one commandment shouldn't be too hard to remember and to live by, should it? - That commandment would be: "Respect your neighbor, understand his needs, and work toward mutual goals." If everyone in the world would follow this commandment in addition to their traditional beliefs, we would finally be able to make some real progress in spite of our differences. But until we abandon forever the notorious perspective of "Us vs. Them" we are doomed to watch our civilizations crumble under the weight of abysmal human suffereing. By the way, why can't Jerusalem just be made an independent entity, like the Vatican? Anyone who wants to can go and worship there, but it won't be "owned" by anybody, so nobody can get offended that they're not the ones calling the shots. Finally, to the comment made by someone above that the people of the world want what Americans have, I don't think that's the case. Much of the world has no idea what goes on here; they're too isolated to be so informed and too poor and sick and hungry to care. Everyone in the world wants two basic things, respect and the ability to prosper. Take away either, and you push the human spirit into the red zone where the big trouble starts. It's time for mankind to grow up.

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com: [b]the truth is our country gives absolutely two shits about other countries. Americans are very fortunate and unquestionably, one of the luckiest civilizations on the planet. However, we came to this country and killed Indians and took advantage of their natural resources. Now all that has changed is we are the Indians. .[/b][/quote] Congratulations.....You have managed to post the most offensive message I believe I have ever read on this or any other forum... Maybe I misunderstand you, but I gather you are referring now to Americans now as Indians, because we are the "hunted"?? I hope to God that's not what you meant... If it is, then I suggest you explain that to the thousands of people who have loved ones missing as a result of this tragedy....Explain that to the scores of children as the reason why there Dad or Mom is never coming homw again....Would you profess the mindless, heartless logic if it was your loved one that had their throat slashed aboard one of the highjacked planes by an insane thug who was trying to cash in his one way ticket to Allah's Wonderland??? If you are so unhappy with your nation for its atrocities against the Indians, why don't you try to find try to find a place on this earth that will hearken you back to a time before the Evil White Massah tried to civilize things up a bit?? Hey, I got it!!! Central Afghanistan!!! No electricity, no running water,no toilets,no health care,no food,no clean clothing, and living in constant fear that today might be your last day... And by the way, your absurd blanket contention that Americans don't give a shit about other nations takes your post to a whole other level, dude.... Did you ever hear of World War II?? We could have fought our battles with Japan in the Pacific Theatre and been over an done with it, but we jumped in with both feet, on two different sides of the globe, halting a Nazi occupation at the cost of millions of American lives.... You really need to put the hash pipe down and knock off the bullshit... In American we have our share of money grubbing sheisters, always had them and probably always will...but the greater majority are hard working people who want the best for themselves and their families....and those people are too dog tired from working their asses off to support themselves than to be be considering your "One Univeral Mind" theory, which I truly believe the human psyche may never be quite prepared to except as long as they remain mortals...

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by OD: [b]Hey Hippie. I got a better solution...why dont you just drop a neutron bomb on the whole place so all human lifeforms are wiped away and then you can just keep all the oilwells which are the main reason you are there anyway. After that you could go back to whatever you where doing before and you wouldn´t ever have to think about anything except when to fire up your next reefer and when the next Star Trek rerun is shown.... Kill´em all OD[/b][/quote] I had no idea that Afghanistan was a producer of oil. And, perhaps, the U.S. is the only country that uses oil. My bad.

[dansouth]

[b]Maybe I misunderstand you, but I gather you are referring now to Americans now as Indians, because we are the "hunted"??[/h] Perhaps the massacre of innocent people is the common thread that the gentlemen was trying to make. The WTC tragedy is to my knowledge the first large scale attack on American civilians (living in the U.S.) by an invading menace. I can see the parallel, although I think it's a rather poor analogy. [b]If it is, then I suggest you explain that to the thousands of people who have loved ones missing as a result of this tragedy....Explain that to the scores of children as the reason why there Dad or Mom is never coming homw again....[/b] Did Native American children suffer any less anguish? [b]If you are so unhappy with your nation for its atrocities against the Indians, why don't you try to find try to find a place on this earth that will hearken you back to a time before the Evil White Massah tried to civilize things up a bit?? Hey, I got it!!! Central Afghanistan!!! No electricity, no running water,no toilets,no health care,no food,no clean clothing, and living in constant fear that today might be your last day...[/b] How about ancient Egypt, the world's most andvanced civilization for 3000 years until European barbarians plundered it? The ancient people of the Middle East invented algebra, double-entry accounting, and the game of chess, while making huge advances in medicine, engineering, agriculture, weather forecasting, navigation, cartography, architecture, and astronomy. They also defined the religious values that we cherish today. Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John the Baptist, etc. all seemed like pretty cool guys, and they were all from the Middle East. [b]And by the way, your absurd blanket contention that Americans don't give a shit about other nations takes your post to a whole other level, dude....[/b] As an aggregate, Americans are grossly underinformed as to what goes on in the world. There was an article in Time about a cab driver from Bangladesh who comforted his passengers by telling them that Bangladesh was in South America, and most of them BOUGHT IT!! How about you? Can you draw a map showing where Bangladesh is relative to its neighbors? Do you know its history? If you were to ask ten people in your town these questions, how many would be able to answer correctly? [b]Did you ever hear of World War II?? We could have fought our battles with Japan in the Pacific Theatre and been over an done with it, but we jumped in with both feet, on two different sides of the globe, halting a Nazi occupation at the cost of millions of American lives....[/b] Approximately 200,000 Americans died in WWII, about the same number of Iraqi's that died in the Gulf War. American involvement in WWII took four years; the Gulf War, less than four months. How would the U.S. feel if we lost 200,000 citizens in a few months? [b]...but the greater majority are hard working people who want the best for themselves and their families....[/b] I absolutely agree with you, but this is not true ONLY of the majority of Americans. This statement describes the majority of PEOPLE around the world. It's time for peace loving people everywhere to rise up and root out the bad blood, the al Qaeda's, the neo-Nazis, the hate mongers everywhere who pose a threat to every decent, respectful, hard working person and family in every country, everywhere.

[Tedster]

>>>I was not joking when I said the answer is love. We (as a world) need to end separation. This means an end to all religions, an end to labelling people as black, white, yellow, brown, jews, christians, muslims, etc... Yeah, love. How is the world going to enforce that? End all religions. Goot idyeea, comrrade...anyeebodyee who practises relyigion vill be shot. Love everyeebodyee or you vill be shot. Saw a documentary on the Taliban tonight. Bombed out buildings. Women getting shot on a soccer field. Men hanged from the goal. Masses of cassette tape stuck from whatever sort of street signs were there, because music is illegal, and they stuck the spaghetti of confiscated tape to the street signs. Kabul is a bunch of bombed out buildings. The government promised 10 years ago to rebuild. No sign of anything. Women aren't allowed to go to school after age 12. They have some sort of government "bureau of morality" or something that equals a secret police force. NOWHERE did they show a sign of any type of commerce. Only armed guards in turbans. Oh, and we'd make the world such a brighter place if we gave everyone the foreign aid they "deserved"? Nope. It would fall into the hands of whatever fuckhead regime was in power at the time, and they would use it as they saw fit. To arm their thugs. To train terrorists against us. Where was it, Uganda, where we sent food, and it went rotting because the corrupt regime of Idi Amin Dada Fuckhead wouldn't distribute it to the starving populace? If they're so jealous of our lifestyle, instead of sending thugs out to try and destroy it, why don't they learn from the students they send here? Why do we have so many foreign doctors in our country? Because they don't wish to return to the repressive regimes they came from. We take in everyone, and their countries shit on us. You make it sound as though the U.S., the money-grubbing warmongering U.S., is the ONLY country that uses foreign oil. I seriously doubt it. We should feel guilty about the fact that our kids for the most part don't have to dodge a barrage of bullets everyday. No, we don't want terrorism here. If that is their way of life, keep it to themselves, but if they bring it here WE WILL SHOVE IT UP THEIR ASSES. And don't fucking pretend for a second that just because up until now terrorism has been rare here, that U.S. citizens abroad haven't been stung by it. I'm a "GREAT SATAN INFIDEL" AND FUCKING PROUD OF IT. Geez. I wonder what The Nuge has to say about all of this?

[Tedster]

>>>As an aggregate, Americans are grossly underinformed as to what goes on in the world. There was an article in Time about a cab driver from Bangladesh who comforted his passengers by telling them that Bangladesh was in South America, and most of them BOUGHT IT!! How about you? Can you draw a map showing where Bangladesh is relative to its neighbors? Do you know its history? If you were to ask ten people in your town these questions, how many would be able to answer correctly That's inexcusable. I knew where Bangladesh was in its prior state of "East Pakistan"...neighbors India to its west...and I'll just take a stab and say Burma to the east...most likely China to the north. I remember when the hurricane hit in the early 70s, just before the civil war, and there were pictures of thousands of bloated bodies. Tens of thousands. I'd never seen anything like it...hope I never do again.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]>>>As an aggregate, Americans are grossly underinformed as to what goes on in the world. There was an article in Time about a cab driver from Bangladesh who comforted his passengers by telling them that Bangladesh was in South America, and most of them BOUGHT IT!! How about you? Can you draw a map showing where Bangladesh is relative to its neighbors? Do you know its history? If you were to ask ten people in your town these questions, how many would be able to answer correctly That's inexcusable. I knew where Bangladesh was in its prior state of "East Pakistan"...neighbors India to its west...and I'll just take a stab and say Burma to the east...most likely China to the north. I remember when the hurricane hit in the early 70s, just before the civil war, and there were pictures of thousands of bloated bodies. Tens of thousands. I'd never seen anything like it...hope I never do again. [/b][/quote] Bangladesh is your WORST nightmare of poverty and despair. More than half of the country it UNDER WATER during monsoon season. Can you say, "Typhus?" Remember in '71 when Beatle George did the benefit for this (then) brand new country?

[Danny M]

[quote] hate to disparage anybody's religion, but Christianity, Judaeism, Islam, etc., they don't make it a perfect world. They don't make the world a better place. They don't make people love their neighbor. They encourage this, but the application is optional and left to the individual. Unfortunately, most individuals don't comply fully. As long as people continue to disrespect each other, religion can and will be used as a means for division, a tool for pandering to hateful emotions, and an excuse to commit attrocities.[/quote] Atheism doesn't make it a perfect world. Atheism doesn't make the world a better place. Atheism doesn't make people love their neighbor. Caring for your neighbor is optional and left to the individual. Unfortunately, most people don't comply fully. As long as people disrespect one another, absolutely, positively, anything that threatens to make a person an individual or even slightly different from anyone else in the glorious people's republic of Earth, we will suffer. Atheism is a HECK of a tool for pandering to hateful emotions, and is just as good as any other belief system (sometimes better) when it comes to creating excuses for committing atrocities. Let me lay it out for you: People aren't perfect. This imperfection remains whether you take away religion, nationality, skin color, recording media preference, or anything else short of a full frontal lobotomy. Taking away monotheistic belief systems will solve nothing, other than maybe uniting a whole bunch of people in being ticked off against YOU. Around and around and around we go... [quote]Did Native American children suffer any less anguish?[/quote] Okay, I am now officially ticked off. How are the children who lost their Moms and Dads on 9/11 responsible for what happened to the Native Americans? How am I responsible? Not a single one of us is guilty of what the US did BEFORE WE WERE EVEN BORN. Not a single one of us is guilty of what the US does WHEN WE ARE NOT THE PERPETRATORS. Until you can bring charges against the little girl whose heart is broken due to Mommy's permanent inability to hold her anymore, I suggest that you take this line of thinking and put it somewhere that will remain nameless. -Danny ------------------ Less is not more. More is more.

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b] Bangladesh is your WORST nightmare of poverty and despair. More than half of the country it UNDER WATER during monsoon season. Can you say, "Typhus?" Remember in '71 when Beatle George did the benefit for this (then) brand new country?[/b][/quote] How could I forget? I saw the movie...had the album...the songs interspersed with those network news images of floating, bloated corpses. Harrison tried. I heard that due to some sort of business malfunction (greed, not on the part of Harrison, but corrupt managers, promoters, etc.) only a small part of the money that was raised ever got there.

[captain54]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [B]As an aggregate, Americans are grossly underinformed as to what goes on in the world. There was an article in Time about a cab driver from Bangladesh who comforted his passengers by telling them that Bangladesh was in South America, and most of them BOUGHT IT!! How about you? Can you draw a map showing where Bangladesh is relative to its neighbors? Do you know its history? If you were to ask ten people in your town these questions, how many would be able to answer correctly? Your argument here is totally irrelevant to the issue.....Whether or not a person is geographically savvy has no bearing on whether they are willing to make an effort to help those in need...Hell, I don't even know where to find good Thai food on the other side of town and its probably only 25 miles away....and to take it even further, I'd venture to say that a whole lot of folks on the other side of the Mississippi might not even know where New York City was if you asked them to draw it on a map.... What does that have to do with whether or not you have it in your heart to rush to the aid of a foreign population in need?? We seem to be in a no-win situation....America gets ripped for sticking its nose in other people's business, and according to you, we don't care enough about other nations...Go figure.... And by the way, who comes to our aid when we have catastrophic national disasters like earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, etc?? Did your cab driver from Bangladesh rush out to any of those disaster sites to lend a helping hand??