lovesinger Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Call me double dumb maybe, but I've wondered for a while--just never asked--if there's a practical reason for and certain ways that pro engneers use moving/flying faders on a board, that are not obvious. Scene recall for different mixes is an understandable given ... but what else? I see clips of boards during a session with faders flying up and down all over the place during every song measure. Is that just ads or is it actual usage? Though not a mixer nor digital newbie, I'm just starting to add major digital gear to my mostly analog setup. I just got a Fostex VF-16 (chosen from other standalones on sound quality of sample songs by users) so moving faders aren't an issue. But since I may have an opp to man a studio board with that feature someday soon, and may later get one of the AW's or other units with 'em, I want to be prepared to use, to not abuse, and certainly to not ignore, a valuable tool if it indeed is. Thanks for all replies. -- Music has miracle potential -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Well the flying faders you see in ads are usually just that. They USUALLY don't move around as much in actual studio application but that wouldn't make for a very exciting ad would it? Basically you use console automation to "record" fader moves that you would be doing anyway during mixing. Instead of you having to move all the faders the same way every time, you do it once and the board does it for you after that. e.g. if the vocalist has a few lines that are too soft and you want to bring up the lead vocal a bit for just those lines, you enable fader automation, do your move once and then from then on whenever you play back the song the fader will automatically bring the vocal up and back down. Some types of automated consoles don't have flying faders, but you just program in the gain change and you can HEAR it happen, but not see it on the faders. I never liked those kinds of consoles because if, say, you stop the track in the middle of the song, you can't visually tell by looking at the fader that the vocal is up say another 2dB during that section. If the movement of the fader doesn't correspond to what you're actually hearing it can get confusing. Flying faders make the console look exactly the way it would look if it were you working the faders instead of the machine. Hope that makes sense. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Flying faders are great when punching in automation. With non-motorized faders, you have to match the fader's physical position to the automation level prior to punching in. A common technique is "nulling LEDs," like the LEDs on guitar tuners -- you move the fader until the lights go out, then you punch. With flying faders, because the fader position always corresponds to the automation level, you just punch in and grab wherever the fader happens to be sitting. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 What SONIC good are flying faders??? This took me about 15 years into my engineering career to learn... Non moving fader systems on analog desks are mostly "VCA's" this is a electronic circuit the sound has to pass through so that volume controls can be automated... AND IT HAS A SOUND - it changes the audio... I knew this because working on SSL desks (AND others Lee!) I was taught to by pass the VCA path on the desk when recording, so it only passed through them ONCE at mixdown.. BUT! 'Moving fader' systems on analog desks, skip VCA's as they have a system (motors and pulleys) that moves an ORDINARY fader (not a VCA fader) UP & DOWN!!! - resulting in a purer sound... SSL, hip to this, started to use a non VCA, moving fader system - it's called "ULTIMATION" Steve Albini - recording Page & Plant at Londons prestigious RAK studios that has an API desk is on record as being agast that the VCA automation in the signal path on the studios vintage API could not be bypassed.. Anyhow, moving faders have an AUDIO benefit as well as the pysical 'where is it at now' operational function. They still give me the creeps!(even though I have had em for about 2 years on the studios ProControl desk) [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ------------------ Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK Take the tour! http://www.librarystudio.com This message has been edited by Julian standen on 09-27-2001 at 08:02 PM Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I had a lot of fun mixing with Flying Faders...it helped that I was working with a great engineer. I was helping to remix some George Clinton comeback stuff and some other rap groups...the flying faders made it a lot easier. I'm real big on knobs and faders...I hated working on a Digital board where you have the same knobs for all tracks and have to switch constantly. To me the ease and musicality (not sonically but physically speaking) of Flying Faders is just the best. If I could afford it in our little studio, I'd do it in a heartbeat. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Zap Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 My opinion is that "Flyign Faders" is conceptually broken. For me, the fader means the level of somethign in the mix, and should never move. Automation should be done on a secondary layer of RELATIVE dB amounts offsetting from wherever the fader is!!!!! So if I do gain riding, I want to do that separately from the fader, so I can turn the vox up on that soft passage (as in the example) but still have the ability to, by MOVING THE FADER, change the OVERALL VOX MIX relative to everything else. Flying faders, in general, nulls out that opportunity quite nicely, and I hate that. Now of course I do my work mostly in SONAR, and 90% of the time I use the clip envelopes instead of fader automation for this very reason... coz the "final relative position" of the faders is about the last thing that solidifíes in a mix the way I do them. But thats just me, I guess. In general, what I'd like is two faders, one to ride, one to set the "level". Sonar has the "Trim" thing but it's pre-effects and fader is post effects, so it aint quite what I want.... /Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Flying faders are wonderful, but that's only a small part of the automation available in an AW4416 or a comparable product (or a full featured digital console). Automated muting and unmuting of channels helps keeps noise in check at mixdown. Automation of EQ settings, compressor settings, effects sends, etc. allows you to create interesting effects, but more practically, it allows you to use tracks for double, triple, etc. duty. Maybe track 6 has a sax in the early part of the song and a lead guitar later on. You can have automation configure the track differently for the respective instruments. And of course, being able to edit fader moves and recall the whole thing a day or a month later is a big improvement over scribbling all of those settings into a notebook. I think you'll really start to appreciate automation, including "flying faders," as you begin to work with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 flying faders a great fun to hypnotize the studio cat if you have one.... -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLo Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b]Flying faders are wonderful, but that's only a small part of the automation available in an AW4416 or a comparable product (or a full featured digital console). Automated muting and unmuting of channels helps keeps noise in check at mixdown. Automation of EQ settings, compressor settings, effects sends, etc. allows you to create interesting effects, but more practically, it allows you to use tracks for double, triple, etc. duty. Maybe track 6 has a sax in the early part of the song and a lead guitar later on. You can have automation configure the track differently for the respective instruments. And of course, being able to edit fader moves and recall the whole thing a day or a month later is a big improvement over scribbling all of those settings into a notebook. I think you'll really start to appreciate automation, including "flying faders," as you begin to work with it.[/b][/quote] I'm not ready for this yet!! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] !! ViLo ------------------ ViLo HE'S COMING,MAKE MUSIC,GET READY! vilofuentes@hotmail.com Jesus Is Coming, Make Music, Get Ready! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovesinger Posted September 28, 2001 Author Share Posted September 28, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b]Automation of EQ settings, compressor settings, effects sends, etc. allows you to create interesting effects, but more practically, it allows you to use tracks for double, triple, etc. duty. Maybe track 6 has a sax in the early part of the song and a lead guitar later on. You can have automation configure the track differently for the respective instruments.[/b][/quote] WOW! That's an automation plus I'd not given thought to. You guys are a veritable storehouse of quick-learn tutoring. How many hours would it take at recording school to get this transmitted savvy? Thanks for these and those to come [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]. -- Music has miracle potential -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 [quote]Automation of EQ settings, compressor settings, effects sends, etc. allows you to create interesting effects, but more practically, it allows you to use tracks for double, triple, etc. duty. Maybe track 6 has a sax in the early part of the song and a lead guitar later on. You can have automation configure the track differently for the respective instruments.[/quote] Yeah I didn't mention all that but auto-muting/eq changes were the coolest part of those remixing sessions. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Poff Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Master Zap: [B]My opinion is that "Flyign Faders" is conceptually broken. For me, the fader means the level of somethign in the mix, and should never move. Automation should be done on a secondary layer of RELATIVE dB amounts offsetting from wherever the fader is!!!!! You can do this with moving faders by using relative mode. When you arm a fader to record, the previous moves are there, but the fader doesn't follow them. You can then make overall changes relative to the previous moves. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uh Clem Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by Master Zap: [b]My opinion is that "Flyign Faders" is conceptually broken. For me, the fader means the level of somethign in the mix, and should never move. Automation should be done on a secondary layer of RELATIVE dB amounts offsetting from wherever the fader is!!!!! So if I do gain riding, I want to do that separately from the fader, so I can turn the vox up on that soft passage (as in the example) but still have the ability to, by MOVING THE FADER, change the OVERALL VOX MIX relative to everything else. Flying faders, in general, nulls out that opportunity quite nicely, and I hate that. Now of course I do my work mostly in SONAR, and 90% of the time I use the clip envelopes instead of fader automation for this very reason... coz the "final relative position" of the faders is about the last thing that solidifíes in a mix the way I do them. But thats just me, I guess. In general, what I'd like is two faders, one to ride, one to set the "level". Sonar has the "Trim" thing but it's pre-effects and fader is post effects, so it aint quite what I want.... /Z[/b][/quote] Yep - 21st century mixing Zap. I'm with you - that clip automation is a cool feature. I alsways did the same thing on my O2R by tweaking the EQ or Compressor out levels. Now, since you are the Sonar GURU, go up there and help Fred get his rig working. Any more cool Sonar tips or gotchas you want to share? Bring 'em on. Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital www.bullmoondigital.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gae_layahoo.it Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Non moving fader systems on analog desks are mostly "VCA's" this is a electronic circuit the sound has to pass through so that volume controls can be automated... AND IT HAS A SOUND - it changes the audio. hey,julian,could you try to describe the way VCA's sound? just curious,cause i've never heard them working... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Optifile (Tetra) automation has a 'move' mode that 'nulls' all faders the moment SMPTE is running. The moment you move a fader that fader goes in record. It works with VCA's and you will not hear a significant difference in sound at all. You can see 64 faders 'move' on your big TV monitor [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] It's great to have automation. Can you guys imagine how albums like 'Relayer' (Yes) were mixed? 22 minute 'songs' by hand, ooch [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence_dup1 Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b]... more practically, it allows you to use tracks for double, triple, etc. duty. Maybe track 6 has a sax in the early part of the song and a lead guitar later on. You can have automation configure the track differently for the respective instruments...[/b][/quote] This is a regular thing for me and my D8B. I can extend the 24 analog channel inputs and the digital tape channels by using this technique. I have had a single channel do triple duty for virtual midi sources and even for recorded audio tracks that do not play at the same time. The EQ A/B settings are great for this purpose and the level/pan automation and event list on the console handle the rest of the parameters. Lawrence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.