Volume Level in Small Clubs

[Dave Pierce]

I would have posted this in the Sweat forum, but it doesn't seem to get any traffic. If you guys have any advice or input, we'd really appreciate it.

 

Our classic rock cover band is trying to reduce our overall volume level so we don't blow patrons out of the small venues we tend to play. All four of us (drums, bass, guitar, keys, everybody sings) are committed to improving in this area, so it's not a witch hunt or anything.

 

We picked up a decibel meter to use during rehearsal. Anyone have any ideas what "too loud" means in quanitative terms?

 

Also, we currently only run vocals through the PA, unless we're playing outdoors. It's been suggested that miking everything could help reduce overall volume, but that seems counter-intuitive to me. Thoughts?

 

--Dave

[Superbobus]

AFAIK, the "pijngrens" (English??? something like pain border) is 130 dB but I guess you won't reach that in small clubs...

A guy from social security checked the volume level in the orchestra pit at the night fever show in Holland. Peaks were at 114 dB so that's already pretty loud. Remember that decibels don't go up in a straight line. That is, the difference between 110 and 120 dB is much bigger than between 50 and 60 dB.

Wonder what dB thinks about this... Ouch, baaaad joke.

 

Soulstars

[Bobro]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

AFAIK, the "pijngrens" (English??? something like pain border) is 130 dB but I guess you won't reach that in small clubs...

A guy from social security checked the volume level in the orchestra pit at the night fever show in Holland. Peaks were at 114 dB so that's already pretty loud. Remember that decibels don't go up in a straight line. That is, the difference between 110 and 120 dB is much bigger than between 50 and 60 dB.

Wonder what dB thinks about this... Ouch, baaaad joke.

 

Soulstars

"Threshold of pain" (Schmerzgrenze in German). I´ve heard figures from 120 to 140 quoted as the Threshold of Pain but 130 is what I learned in school.

 

"threshold" is a bitchen word by the way, it came from the "Viking" languages and originally means "The plank, stone, or piece of timber, which lies under a door, especially of a dwelling house, church, temple, or the like; the doorsill; hence, entrance; gate; door". In English nowadays it´s almost always used figuratively or poetically- threshold of pain, the threshold of adulthood, threshold of a new era, etc.

 

Sorry, got carried away, professional deformity. My side job is "mastering" papers that have been translated from German and Slovene for publication in English-language journals and I do it by studying the roots of words and hunting out the deepest meanings.

 

-Bobro

[coyote]

Miking everything is unneccessary. In one respect it is accurate: The more mics in a system, the lower volume each is capable of producing before inducing feedback. So it acts as a limiter of sorts.

 

But the real issues are different. First, the vocal mics ought be loud enough to project over the drums regardless of situation. Drummers (I am one) tend to get entuhusiastic during rock gigs. If possible, use the smallest drums available and get the drummer to restrain himself a bit without destroying the energy needed to rock.

 

Next - bass is louder in the back of the room than onstage due to the wavelengths involved. If possible, run a direct out from the bass amp and put some bass in your monitor mix so everyone onstage can hear it. If not, then get the bassd amp off the floor and at ear level!

 

That same advice goes for guitar & keyboard amplification. get 'em off the floor and uP to where you can hear them. You will see just how loud you've been, and you'll find you don't need to be so loud. For guitars, the volume ought be just loud enough to induce feedback (if you use it) but no louder.

 

if you do all this and still find you're blowing the patrons out of the bar, perhaps you need to play bigger places?

[Rick K.]

We got our drummer a set of electronic drums. (Some drummers hate these, but we've had great success with them.) This has really helped us reduce our overall stage volume dramatically so our FOH mix doesn't have to be 'above' that level. Typically our spl's depend on the venue, but we try to keep it around 110db for dance gigs with spikes never over 130db. I am a huge fan of running everything thru the sound system. Our on stage amps are for us individually and we rely on our monitors heavily to hear the other musicians. This way the guitar player can hear me thru his individual monitor rather than from my on stage amp from the opposite end of the stage. If you get into a volume war on stage, you'll end up with a very muddy and extrememly loud FOH. AND my 60 watt Peavey KB100 (hate it) can NEVER reproduce the sound quality as my 10,000+ watt sound system even at lower volumes. I also use DI boxes instead of mics on everything except the Pedal Steel guitar and the Electric Guitar, where I'm using SM57's.

 

Rick

[Pat Azzarello]

Pain and volume don't always rise in a 1:1 relationship.

 

I've been in clubs where I couldn't hear the person next to me yelling, but I wasn't in pain. Other times, it's been painful to listen though the volume in decibels was actually pretty low (110 db). I worked with a great soundman who had everything equalized so well that there were no painful EQ nodes, and you didn't realize how loud it was FOH until you tried to talk to someone else. It was loud enough that the crowd was always engaged listening to the band but produced well enough that no one complained.

 

A couple of my "rules" include:

1. People who sit up against the stage shouldn't whine if they can't hear each other talk.

2. The soundman should be able to mix the band - not compensate for one (or more) instrument being too loud on the stage. In small clubs, on small stages, I face my amp(s) up so as to minimize my volume coming off the stage.

4. People who wait 5 minutes, blocking the aisle in the parking lot, for a spot close to the front door of a health club annoy me. Why would you wait for a closer spot, then get on a treadmill for an hour?...

 

OK, the last one was off topic, but it's corrolary is the guitarist who complains he can't hear his monitor over his Marshall stack.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Dave Pierce:

I would have posted this in the Sweat forum, but it doesn't seem to get any traffic. If you guys have any advice or input, we'd really appreciate it.

 

Our classic rock cover band is trying to reduce our overall volume level so we don't blow patrons out of the small venues we tend to play.

A symphony orchestra in the middle of the auditorium runs about 90db.

 

Here Is a link to a site with a table of safe levels of noise for industry. This is relevant since people are working in this environment. This is a site that talks about modifying discos to meet industrial sound levels. They managed to produce levels of 100db on the dance floor and 90db at the bar and comment that at 90db you can order a drink without shouting.

 

So levels of about 100db on the dance floor are good to aim for.

[Dave Pierce]

Thanks for all the tips, guys!

 

We're going to use our volume meter at rehearsal Monday and see where we're at. Interestingly enough, our guitarist seems to be the best among us at keeping the volume down. Certainly goes against the normal trend.

 

--Dave

[RABid]

Coyote made a lot of good points. There are times I have felt sorry for the bass player. We have played jobs where he could not hear himself on stage but in the back of the room all you could hear was bass. Anyway, people in the back of the room should be able to have a conversation without shouting. That is why they choose to sit in the back. They should also be able to hear the band clearly. That is why they come to the club you are playing. It is a hard balance to get and if the musicians are trying to use their individual amps for the floor mix problems arise. 4 people cannot run sound.

 

Maybe the most important part, the softer your stage volume the less damage you do to your hearing. Something you will really appreciate 15 years from now. Sadly drummers usually control the stage volume. If you have a heavy hitter everyone suffers.

 

Robert

[Superbobus]

Sadly drummers usually control the stage volume.

That's not my experience. I'm 100% sure that it's the guitar player or the bass player controlling the stage volume, just by turning up his amp with each tune.

I know this is stupid but I didn't use my earplugs anymore because I don't have good control over my sounds and my voice when they're in. But lately the volume is getting out of control so I have to use them. Any tips? Maybe practicing with earplugs? (hope the neighbors won't get mad...)

[Pat Azzarello]

I used to play with ear plugs all the time...

Now they stay in my pocket most of the night except when the stage volume is out of control(note the comments on drummers, bassists and guitar players ).

 

I found putting my vocal monitor in a place where it's really close allows me to have a good monitor mix without blasting the monitor. In the past my monitor had to be loud enough for me to hear from the floor, and that caused greater stage volume.

 

If I continue to play live with the band I'm in for any length of time I'm going to invest in a pair of good in-ear monitors so that I can control EVERYTHING that goes into my ears.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

Sadly drummers usually control the stage volume.

That's not my experience. I'm 100% sure that it's the guitar player or the bass player controlling the stage volume, just by turning up his amp with each tune.

I know this is stupid but I didn't use my earplugs anymore because I don't have good control over my sounds and my voice when they're in. But lately the volume is getting out of control so I have to use them. Any tips? Maybe practicing with earplugs? (hope the neighbors won't get mad...)

It depends upon what each of them is playing. Some drummers have small bass drums and snares for small venues while some guitarists have a couple of amps for differing venues. I certianly know both drummers and guitarists who cause level problems for everyone else.

[Bubbajazz]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

Sadly drummers usually control the stage volume.

That's not my experience. I'm 100% sure that it's the guitar player or the bass player controlling the stage volume, just by turning up his amp with each tune.

The best bands I ever played with really exhibited outstanding dynamics. And the key to that was to avoid (b)racket creep . You start off the first song at a sane level, followed by the first ballad, then the first hot soloing number...

 

By the time the solos are finished, the band feels like it's half again as loud as when you started. And that pesky one-way volume control just doesn't work in reverse.

 

My suggestion - probably the best thing you can do with the meter is to have a friend check the levels for consistency over the entire gig and over the duration of several songs (you know which ones, I bet.)

 

The good news is, you have the commitment of the entire band. That's the most important thing. It helps to convince entire band that energy is conveyed by changing the volume up and down, not just by turning up.

[eric]

You need to look into in-ear monitors. We've had some discussions about these in the past, so do a search for in-ear monitors and you may find some good tips.

 

Regards,

Eric

[sign]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

Sadly drummers usually control the stage volume.

That's not my experience. I'm 100% sure that it's the guitar player or the bass player controlling the stage volume, just by turning up his amp with each tune.

I know this is stupid but I didn't use my earplugs anymore because I don't have good control over my sounds and my voice when they're in. But lately the volume is getting out of control so I have to use them. Any tips? Maybe practicing with earplugs? (hope the neighbors won't get mad...)

A drummer can sound rock solid without getting loud, just a matter of technique. And I agree 100% with you (ik ben het 100% met je eens) that it's the guitarist(s) and bassplayers that are too loud in most occasions.

 

I've done FOH for some ten years (with a dB level meter on the board)

[Botch.]

The last band I played with used those clear plexiglass shields around the drummer, that made a HUGE difference in the volume level. Fortunately the guitarist turned down accordingly, it was nice playing with that band. Unfortunately those shields do take up some space, something that's usually in short supply in a smaller club.