Chord Help

[Tusker]

There is this chord that I would like the band to play. However I am not sure what best to call it. Can you help me. It's voiced as follows:

 

L-H:

- C below middle C

 

R-H:

- G below middle C

- D above middle C

- F# above middle C

 

For the song I am working on, this chord is a useful transition between Dmajor and Bmajor.

Consequently there should be no rogue Es, As or Bs sneaking into the chord. Colorful characters that they are, they would thicken the texture and distract from the transition.

 

So what should I call this chord? For extra gratitude, how could a guitarist play it?

 

Thanks,

 

Jerry

[VanZea]

It's a C#11, or for guitar players: D/C

 

Grtz,

Jeroen

[VanZea]

After some more thinking (you say it's a transition chord), I think it actually is: D7/C, but then this G is a bit odd...

 

Grtz,

Jeroen

[Dave Horne]

Not everything can be 'easily' notated using _just_ chord symbols. (The C #11 mentioned - do you play a B or a Bb? I wouldn't write an 11th extension without giving an indication of what flavor '7' I wanted.)

 

Why not just write out on manuscript paper what exactly you want and let it go at that?

 

Sometimes the convoluted method of writing _everything_ out using chord symbols makes the page so unsightly that it's actually easier to just 'read' longhand what the arranger wants.

 

(An aside - when I write chord symbols, it's just for the bass player as I know how I will alter what appears on paper. I keep the symbols simple ... I don't write Cm7, I write Cm ... I know to add the 7 and will probably play the 7. The bass player 'sees' Cm and knows what to do ... but I'm getting off the topic here, aren't I?)

[Jojje]

To me it seems to be a fourth chord with an added #11. Seems to be an ambigous little fella. What happens before and after? Fourth chords don´t really fit into standard chord nomenclature, better to write out the notes like you did.

[Dave Pierce]

When I play complex, unusual chords, I find that guitar players seldom see them with the same perspective I do. So I often just pick up a guitar and figure out what I want them to play, and show them. (Not that this comes up very often, maybe twice since I started playing again this year.)

 

I just plinked around with my guitar, and a chord that seemed to work was basically like this:

 

A standard open D chord, with the finger dropped from the fourth string, and the thumb holding the 3rd fret on the top two strings. So the notes end up being:

 

G C D G D F#

 

The fingering is a bit awkward, and it would be hard for me to play quickly in a song. But I'm not really a guitarist, hopefully a good guitarist could either do it, or figure out a better fingering once he knows what you're looking for.

 

HTH.

 

--Dave

[Superbobus]

I think I would call it Csus2#11. The sus2 replaces the 3rd of C major, there's no major 7 sign so there will be no B and the #11 is of course F sharp.

 

Soulstars

[marino]

Another way to call it would be (God forbid) Gmaj7(no third)/C bass. Ulp!

Anyway, it's a beautiful sound - thanks for sharing!

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by Dave Pierce:

G C D G D F#

 

The fingering is a bit awkward, and it would be hard for me to play quickly in a song.

Ya' think?

 

There are other voicings that would get the idea across on guitar without turning your left hand into a game of "Twister".

 

Yes, my primary instrument is guitar.

 

- Jeff

[urk10]

It's a GMAJ7/C

[Tusker]

Wow, that's awesome advice guys. There is so much ... wisdom on this board. There is a difference between getting the nomenclature "right" and getting a band to sound a chord reasonably well, isn't there?

 

I think I will give the guitarists that tab. (They can always leave out the low E string if it's too cumbersome to use the thumb. Or come up with something better.)

 

As to naming it..... I am leaning toward Csus2#11 and Gmaj7 (no third)/C. They each have their strengths it seems. The slash version is more cumbersome to write and read but there is less chance of sonic weirdness.

 

Speaking of which, what intervals are considered to have "sus" potential? Is it just the 2nd and the 4th resolving to a third? (For example, would it be legitimate to write Aflat/C as Cmsus6).

 

You been a great help. Thanks to you all.

 

Jerry

[D_dup3]

Don't quit 'til I weigh in!

 

First of all, it is a lovely sound!

 

I endorse DH's opinion that some things may be better left letting the sound stand for itself [how many Debussy pieces have a chord chart above the staves?!] but if you really want an answer it helps to know the harmonic context---what preceeds & follows? What scale(s) or melody notes are used?

 

Lacking that, my suggestion is to consider all the possible chords (& partial chords) that the notes might represent & to then try those in variant voicings to hear which sounds like the most accurate substitution. That gives you an idea of what might best apply regardless of the particular voicing.

 

Without treading through all the possibilities, I agree with the general conclusions above but with some differences.

 

As a G chord this might be more generally be called a Gmaj7sus4 (or maybe a Gmaj11) although Marino's "maj7(no third)/C" achieves the same end. I was able to find several alternate voicings for this that sounded "right" in the progression.

 

As a C chord (which I think is really more accurate),I also found some variations that sounded good but they lead me to these comments:

 

In playing this as a C#11 type, I noticed that between the D & B chords it sounded better (to me) as a maj.7 rather than a dom.7 type; further experimentation leads to the conclusion that it sounds even more appropriate as a minor rather than a major chord.

I think, therefore, that the best term might be Cm/maj7#11.

 

I know you mentioned not adding any extra notes ("no rogue Es,As or Bs") but remember, chords in ensemble music, & especially on guitar, are frequently voiced as fragments, leaving out some notes. More importantly, when naming a group of notes as a chord the intention is to communicate the music in a way that can stand apart from notation---so you might well want to communicate an overall harmonic picture.

For instance (& if you agree with my conclusions regarding the quality of 7ths or 3rds that seem most appropriate), someone reading just "C#11" (or even "C#11/no3/no7") might apply inappropriate or clashing passing notes in their accompaniment on bass, harmony or as a soloist.

 

Of course, you might choose to leave these alternatives open to each interpreter (as a lot of "modal" music does) but then you might have a situation such as the following.

Once, in rehearsal with Thelonious Monk, a player kept playing playing a maj.3rd in his solo. Finally Monk asked him why he was playing the "wrong" note & the cat showed him that, in Monk's own score it said C9.

Monk, in his peevish manner, then pointed out that the context "clearly" showed that it should be minor "so play the right damn note!".

 

My point is (as stated above) that you may want to indicate in a chord's name more than just the notes to be played by a particular instrument.

 

AS far as playing the chord on guitar, the easiest voicing would be:

 

1st string= 2nd fret/1st finger [pitch=F#]

2nd string= 3rd fret/3rd finger [pitch=D]

3rd string= open [pitch=G]

4th string= X (unplayed)

5th string= 3rd fret/2nd finger [pitch=C]

6th string= X (unplayed)

 

Most guitarists would find that an easy move from the preceeding D chord.

 

NOW A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS FOR YOU, TUSKER!

 

(1) Not to sound like one of those "chord stringers" on the Songwriter Forum, but what causes you to choose B as the third chord rather than the more likely sounding Bm or G?

("cause I just like it" is an adequate answer but I hope you elaborate---back to context,again!)

 

(2)Have you noticed the similarity to this sequence? (Beatle fans will)

 

(play as ascending/descending arpeggiated 1/8th notes)

 

4/4 [ D-d'-f#'-d'-C-d'-f#'-d' l B-d'-f#'-d'-Bb-d'-f#'d' ] rpt

[Superbobus]

It's a GMAJ7/C

Nah, there's no metioning of a B and Gmaj7/C is too much narrowing down the possibilities. Marino, I was thinking about that Gmaj7(omit 3)/C thing too but that sounds weird eh? D, that CmMaj thing opens up lots of new possibilities!

 

Soulstars

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy:

Originally posted by Dave Pierce:

G C D G D F#

 

The fingering is a bit awkward, and it would be hard for me to play quickly in a song.

Ya' think?

 

There are other voicings that would get the idea across on guitar without turning your left hand into a game of "Twister".

 

Yes, my primary instrument is guitar.

 

- Jeff

Well, I tried. It's hard for me to tell what's difficult and what's not -- it's all difficult for me!

 

Course, maybe it was just revenge for all those times I've been asked to emulate a rhythm guitar with a distorted organ sound.

 

--Dave

[Tusker]

Those are some very helpful ideas D. And yes, I'd like it to remain with just the notes I mentioned, also I'd like it to resolve to B major. I'll explain below:

 

Originally posted by d:

(1) Not to sound like one of those "chord stringers" on the Songwriter Forum, but what causes you to choose B as the third chord rather than the more likely sounding Bm or G?

("cause I just like it" is an adequate answer but I hope you elaborate---back to context,again!)

Yes, it's all about context isn't it? Ok, i'll give you some context to explain why the B is so tempting. First of all this is the last chord in a Christmas musical. The finale is your typical 5 minute reprise of thematic material from the musical, and it goes through a number of key changes. However it firmly establishes a D major tonic leading up to the Coda (fanfares and other bombastic elements). The instruments are your typical band with wind intruments. A number of the people read music and have specific parts scored for them. This is for the few who "need a chord" to play at the end.

 

So why B major?

 

1) Well, after the musical, we'd like to lead the congregation in an a capella rendition of "Emmanuel" a commonly known chorus that is appropriate for B major.

 

2) We've already used a number of black key modulations (Using Bflat, E flat and F major chords in a tonic of D major) as in "The End", Here comes the Sun, etc.

 

3) Since we've have the odd classical meats pop (think All you Need is Love, or Classical Gas) stuff with an explicit rhythm, I though it would be neat to end with a focus on harmony. So I wrote it as D, funky C, D, funky C, B. (where funky C is the chord we are discussing). The idea is for the rhythm to hang but provide a lot of harmonic information that lurches into a resolution. Think of a Faure wall of harmony rather than Haydn-like stabs and punctuations.

 

Why I'd like not to add any other notes. .....The chord progression allows the voices to move fairly explicitly (D=>D=>D#, F#=>F#=>F#, A=>G=>F#, and in the bass D=>C=>B of course). Any additional notes will hide the movement of voices.

 

Originally posted by d:

(2)Have you noticed the similarity to this sequence? (Beatle fans will)

 

(play as ascending/descending arpeggiated 1/8th notes)

 

4/4 [ D-d'-f#'-d'-C-d'-f#'-d' l B-d'-f#'-d'-Bb-d'-f#'d' ] rpt

It sounds so familiar. It's similar to Dear Prudence, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, etc. But I think this riff is a different song. Which one is it?

 

Thanks,

 

Jerry

[D_dup3]

Thanks for the background.

 

Remember: to name a chord doesn't require that it include all the notes.

 

As to the note sequence, I thought it was "Dear Prudence" but Lennon was big on that chromatic descent from the tonic & used it many places.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by marino:

Another way to call it would be (God forbid) Gmaj7(no third)/C bass. Ulp!

Anyway, it's a beautiful sound - thanks for sharing!

G C D G D F#

 

I'm going to be perverse and call it D7(11)/G (no 5)

 

[DougSt.Louis]

DMaj7sus4

[Jojje]

I´ve been rereading this topic more thoroghly than I did last time and now it´s all clear to me.

The chord functions a passing D dominant chord that resolves to the B in the bass. It´s a simple walkdown bass and everything that happens here can be stripped down to D D7 G. The D7 is some kind of a stripped down 11 chord with the flatted seventh in the bass. So I´d call it D7(no5) add11/C. And the B chord is a subdominant substitution, Bm being the subdominant parallel (as we call it in Sweden) it can replace the G. The Bm sound is a bit predictable so the B major chord sound more fresch to me than a minor quality. It sounds more open and positive to me. That´s what I think anyway. One should think as simple as possible and look for the function of a chord when naming it.