OT: How much will you put up with from other musicians

[Dave Pierce]

Just got back from a weekend gig with my band. We all had a great time, until our guitar player decided to get all pissed off and become "Mr. Rage Man" for a while. He had a right to be angry -- the other three of us got sidetracked for about 15 min after our gig and left him by himself doing tear down. Whoops! Clearly that was wrong...

 

But throwing stuff around and yelling four-letter words didn't make it right, that's for sure.

 

He's an awesome guitar player and is usually fun to be around. The other two guys in the band seem willing to put up with his occasional alter-ego, but I'm not sure if I am anymore.

 

How much are you willing to make allowances for bad behavior from good musicians? Do you refuse to work with people who behave badly? Or will you do it if they bring something exceptional to the table?

 

--Dave

[D_dup3]

Depends ... is it just occasional (or as in this case & possibly "justifiable")?

No one needs to be that way regularly but sometimes people need to vent a little.

Maybe it was building up from other things, too---can you talk to the cat or is he unapproachable?

 

Like I said, I don't think anyone's allowed beyond the bounds of civility except as a special exception.

Professionalism's a must but any long term partnership (like a "family") should allow people to be human.

 

[is that "waffly" enough? ]

[Dan South]

Zero. That's why I work alone. God bless computers!!

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by d:

Depends ... is it just occasional (or as in this case & possibly "justifiable")?

No one needs to be that way regularly but sometimes people need to vent a little.

Maybe it was building up from other things, too---can you talk to the cat or is he unapproachable?

 

Like I said, I don't think anyone's allowed beyond the bounds of civility except as a special exception.

Professionalism's a must but any long term partnership (like a "family") should allow people to be human.

 

[is that "waffly" enough? ]

No, those are good questions.

 

This is about the fourth time in six months of playing together. The first couple of times we sort of ignored it. Last time I told him he needed to chill, but in a bantering manner. This time I told him that while I was sorry we left him hanging, and that we were wrong to do that, it wasn't OK to treat us the way he did. At that point he clammed up, didn't say two words the rest of the night, stayed in the hotel while the rest of us went out to have fun (he was invited), and then reverted to Mr. Nice Guy next morning.

 

I have this sense of foreboding though.... Rehearsal in four hours. I hope it's band practice and not drama class.

 

To answer the other obvious question that wasn't asked: Neither one of us drinks or does drugs. Hey, wait, maybe that's the problem...

 

--Dave

[Rick K.]

Dave,

 

If a guy started throwing stuff where he was going to potentially damage some of my equipment, I'd definately get pissed at him. Perhaps even fire the guy. I can't stand those that have no respect for others' stuff.

 

On the other hand, I can understand his frustrations if he was the only person tearing down. That regularly happens to me. Besides being the key player, I also run sound. I usually have to completely route the system, including monitors, as well as set up and tear down my rig. Usually I don't get a whole lot of help. I still don't throw stuff or cuss like a fool ESPECIALLY if the patrons, employees, or club owner can hear me! There needs to be a modicum of professionalism...

 

Rick

[coyote]

There's a lot at play here. I obviously know nothing about the internal dynamics of your band, but maybe my thoughts will help.

 

Do guys regularly get 'sidetracked' and leave the guitarist to break down equipment? (The temptation will of course be to deny it, but think carefully. Try to see it from the guitarist's POV.) He might perceive a pattern where he's being taken advantage of, and finally be willing to speak up (and yes rage a bit). And if it turns out he does get left to do the work, who is really behaving badly and unprofessionally?

 

Now... if he threw a cable or two, that ought be allowable unless it happens all the time and for no real reason. But if he throws any real equipment - mics, guitars, cases, etc - then regardless of his POV he's waaay out of line and you should look to replace him if he can't cool it.

 

Hope y'all are able to work it out! PEACE

[Synthguy]

Unless they're mellow, WE DON'T TALK POLITICS!

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by coyote:

There's a lot at play here. I obviously know nothing about the internal dynamics of your band, but maybe my thoughts will help.

 

Do guys regularly get 'sidetracked' and leave the guitarist to break down equipment? (The temptation will of course be to deny it, but think carefully. Try to see it from the guitarist's POV.) He might perceive a pattern where he's being taken advantage of, and finally be willing to speak up (and yes rage a bit). And if it turns out he does get left to do the work, who is really behaving badly and unprofessionally?

 

Now... if he threw a cable or two, that ought be allowable unless it happens all the time and for no real reason. But if he throws any real equipment - mics, guitars, cases, etc - then regardless of his POV he's waaay out of line and you should look to replace him if he can't cool it.

 

Hope y'all are able to work it out! PEACE

Thanks Coyote. The first question is hard to answer -- we usually play bars where the staff is trying to close up and it's a race to get packed and out before we hold them up. So all four of us bust ass until we're locked and loaded, no fooling around. This time we were at a hotel that had been reserved entirely for the wedding party, and we quit playing at 9 pm. So there was no rush, we could have left our gear there until morning if we had wanted to. Which was why it was so easy to get sidetracked.

 

The gear he threw was a mic box. A pretty strong box, so probably not a risky move, but if those had been either *my* mics or *the band's* mics, that would have been the end of our working relationship right there. However, they were *his* mics. I guess a guy can trash his own gear if he wants to. Doesn't seem real smart, but whatever...

 

Rehearsal tonight was band practice, not drama class. That put me in a way better mood about this guy. I think I'll keep putting up with Mr. Hyde for a while, but he's definitely on my "watch list" now.

 

It's weird dealing with this kind of stuff at this stage of my life. I had forgotten how much drama I put up with back when I was in bands in my teens and twenties. Of course, back then I was the source of BS as often as not. But I've spent my thirties focusing on my career. All of the people skills I've learned have been related to professional, corporate environments where this kind of behavior is simply not tolerated. If this guy was on my staff he would have been fired by now. And he would stick out like a sore thumb -- nobody acts that way at the office, it just simply isn't done.

 

Why are we so much more willing to act out our emotions when playing music than when doing other kinds of work? Hmmm....

 

--Dave

[Bobro]

Hmmm... well I tend to Mr. Hyde on people who try to pull control trips or play "authority". Learned the hard way that people who aren´t too bright tend to confuse nice and open with weak and manipulable, and meanness and ego with strength and purpose, and it´s happened much too often that someone will push me and then get a big shock which ruins any future working relationship. Hasn´t been good from a financial perspective, but my wife does admire the fact that I´ve never been sycophantic, and that´s worth something.

 

Well the answer IMHO is managers and producers. That´s really why they´re around, to be tyrannical or greasy or peacemaking or provocative or whatever "the show must go on" calls for. Music is actually a very primitive thing; surely everyone here has made an ass of themselves in love or lust at one point or another, and that´s the kind of instincts we´re dealing with.

 

-Bobro

[Superbobus]

Well, as long as he didn't have to do the teardown of bass, keys and drum set I cannot see any reason why he was pissed at you guys.

In Holland we have this expression "voor jou tien anderen". It means something like: instead of you I could ask ten other cats who could do the job... Think about it, or better, let the guitar player think about it.

[Botch.]

I don't think I would have tolerated it in a bar, now that you say it was a wedding I would've fired him on the spot. The guests and folks that work at the hotel won't think, "Wow, that guitar player is a jerk", they'll think "Wow, that band is a bunch of jerks".

 

Lee Flier has a great thread on SSS about how much you're committed to music; I mentioned I do it just on weekends so my livelihood is NOT dependent on a jerk like this who can suddenly leave me unemployed. You're lucky in that its usually easier to replace a guitarist than some other instrument.

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Zero. That's why I work alone. God bless computers!!

[RABid]

When people ask why I no longer play in bands my reply is always I go tired of dealing with musicians. In retrospect they probably also got tired of dealing with me. DSears and I were talking about this a while back. It can be a major problem in a small town because there are not many good musicians to choose from and most of those have jobs or other commitments that prevent them from being totally dedicated to a working band. He did mention this place called Nashville where you can hire a musician, give them a sheet to play from, and count on them showing up on time and doing the job. A place where musicians worry about their reputation and do what it takes to keep a good reputation that will bring more work. I dont know if this place really exists, but if it does maybe I will go there when I die.

 

But now, back to todays topic. There is not much I can add to what has already been said but do think about this. Is the guitarist asking the same question? Does he feel that he is the only one in the band totally dedicated? Is he just a type A personality who thinks things that need to be done need to be done now. If a type A personality is in the minority and not in control it can be very frustrating. Of course, he may just be a hot head. I dont know. Im just throwing darts and waiting for someone to scream.

 

Robert

[henryrobinett]

What I put up with totally depends on what the circumstances are and what I get if I fire a great musician. It takes all kinds of people in this world and one way or another it benefits us to learn to get along. That being said I don't put up with drunks or drug abusers. Don't have the time for it. It's a no win situation professionally.

 

In your case I'd sit down and have a heart to heart. Something's up the guys ass and something's up yours. The skies will clear only one way: talk total and complete truth. If you take the confrontational aspects away and are willing to listen completely maybe he'll do the same.

[Tusker]

I find that musicians often don't understand power. In any band, power is dictated by an individual's skill, but also by who brings the dollars in, who has the best alternatives, who can the band do without, etc.

 

I don't find it useful to discuss power (and perceived power)directly, but it is something to be aware of in negotiating, which is what you will need to do in this situation. The fact that the individual was willing to damage his mikes to make a statement suggests that a lot of frustration has been building up (perhaps for you as well). It will take some time to vent and clear the air before negotiations can begin.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

Is there a band leader or manager that deals with "situations"?

 

If decisions are made under a "mutual understanding" basis......there should be a plan ahead of time to prevent or diffuse mis-understandings.

 

It sounds as though, for whatever reason; the guitarist felt like you guys walked away and left the burden of equipment teardown on him. He got 'pissed' and took it too far.........

 

Why don't you establish something like: in the future, should a similar situation arise........excuse him from PA obligation pack up, etc.

 

I can relate somewhat, as I sometimes play gigs with a band that likes to socialize for awhile after the gig prior to teardown. I tend to have more driving to do & usually have early obligations the next day. So it was established that if I needed to leave ASAP.......and they wished to "take their time".......I would excuse myself as soon as I was ready. No stress!

 

I am not looking to excuse "bad" behavior.......only to "diffuse" for future references. You can't always estimate just how far someone might "take an issue".....just try to establish a clearer preparation for future incidents.

 

Good luck.........

 

Surreal

[marino]

Originally posted by Bobro:

Hmmm... well I tend to Mr. Hyde on people who try to pull control trips or play "authority". Learned the hard way that people who aren´t too bright tend to confuse nice and open with weak and manipulable, and meanness and ego with strength and purpose

Bobro

Thanks for this description, Cameron... I can relate totally. Like any job where you have to closely interact with other people, music can be a field for every kind of attitude clashes or psychodramas. After 25 years of being onstage, I just learned to deal with it - if some situation tends to get ugly, I consider if I can still enjoy the music, and if the answer is not, I usually get out of the picture, even if it pays well. But most times, I can balance it. For example, I play regularly with a band where one one of the guys is a total, complete and absolute ass/jerk, and not even a very good musician. He stays in the group for political/logistical reasons. I know it, he knows it, the other guys know it. But I like the music, and I like the other musicians, so that's not enough to prompt me to leave. After all, I don't have to marry the people I play with, and I don't feel I have to hang with anyone I don't like just because we work together.

Being kind of temperamental, I've had a few bad minutes with my bandmates as well. But it doesn't really matter if there is mutual respect and the people is mature enough to explain and apologize when it's the case. Some people are just fragile - they break down on the road. In this case, to try and make them feel like they're part of the community may really help. Some other people - well, they just want to control and organize the whole thing, like self-appointed bosses. These kind of people I really can't work with for long periods of time. I like to work with guys and gals who can communicate and work together, EVEN if they are a *little* less skilled as musicians. (gasp!)

 

Carlo

[sevush]

I stopped playing out for 25 years and started again last year. I was quickly reminded why I stopped.

 

There's a great line from Carly Simon's song - "Haven't got time for the pain!" and that's it in a nutshell for me.

 

For every headcase who plays well (typically guitar ) there are three players who are just as good and reasonable human beings.

 

Picked up a gig a few weeks ago that paid well and the guitarist offered me several other dates. Before we could finalize the details, I watched him blow up at everyone BUT me. I thought it's only a matter of time (and this was over NOTHING) and after we were done, as I was in the middle of tearing down, he whined to me about helping him w/the PA. Sure, AFTER I'm done, which got the foreshadowed maniac rant.

 

My dad is a narcissistic rager (and a drummer), so I know how to keep eyes down and keep a rager from exploding. Helped him out, got my gear loaded, got my money and ducked out quickly. When he called me for other dates, I explained that I didn't need to be around that level of anger. He started to minimize it and I told him we see it differently and that's fine.

 

I don't think it matters if the person is "justified". There are ways to communicate your aggrevation and when that is not observerved, that person is trampling on professionalism and human decency.

 

So, my answer to the original question is, if it bothers you, no, it's not acceptable. The real question is what do you do?

 

In my case, I've learned it's best for all concerned to excuse myself.

[Dave Pierce]

Wow, lots of good replies, ideas and advice here. Thanks guys!

 

I think sevush really hit on the core of the problem, at least for me:

 

Originally posted by sevush:

I don't think it matters if the person is "justified". There are ways to communicate your aggrevation and when that is not observerved, that person is trampling on professionalism and human decency.

I really like this band, so I'm going to keep plugging along for a while. I've had a heart to heart with the guitarist in question, where I made it clear that we were sorry for leaving him hanging, but that the 500-pound gorilla act isn't going to work anymore. You could see the thought process on his face: "Maybe if I apologize, this problem will go away." So in his best Beavis and Butthead voice he said "Uh, yeah, so like, I'm sorry, or something."

 

Hopefully we've found the right knob for "emotional intensity", and can just back that puppy off of 11, to say about 3.

 

--Dave

[Dave Pierce]

Well, four weeks have passed since this thread, and the guitarist in question has had three more "rage episodes". The last one was over something so trivial, so obviously not about the people involved, the it was basically comical.

 

So with a heavy heart, but a few good lessons under my belt, I told the other two band members that I can't work with him anymore, and I'm done.

 

If it wasn't for the fact that I'm still an active candidate for a great job in Pasadena, I would have probably taken a different approach and tried to get the other two on "my side", and fired that guitarist. But that just seemed wrong to me. I don't know if I'll get the job or not, but if I did, I would just feel all kinds of bad about the band.

 

So now I'm looking for gigs again. Got a couple auditions lined up already. I've also got opportunities for casual gigs, sit-ins, etc. I don't mind auditioning when I'm a candidate for a SoCal job -- by the time the audition process runs it's course, I should know more about the job anyway.

 

Heavy sighs all around.

 

The big lessons I learned?

 

1) Don't start thinking of bandmates as "friends" until I've known them for several months or more. Colleagues is a perfectly fine relationship to have -- I have it with boatloads of people from places I've worked.

 

2) Not sure if the "equal partners" band structure really works for me. I think from now on, I either want to be a hired player in someone else's band, or perhaps someday start my own band. Maybe a band with professional management would fix this problem as well.

 

3) Working with other musicians is emotionally difficult. OK, this isn't new -- I used to know this back when I played a lot in my 20s, but I had forgotten it. Won't happen again.

 

--Dave

[Superbobus]

So with a heavy heart, but a few good lessons under my belt, I told the other two band members that I can't work with him anymore, and I'm done.

Didn't the other two band members get tired of this guitarist?

 

Soulstars

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

So with a heavy heart, but a few good lessons under my belt, I told the other two band members that I can't work with him anymore, and I'm done.

Didn't the other two band members get tired of this guitarist?

 

Soulstars

Well, yes, but not as tired as me. If I wasn't interviewing for this job in Pasadena (300 miles away for those not familiar with California), I believe I could have gotten the other guys to fire him. But if we fired him, and then I get the job and move, then they'd have no guitar and no keys. Didn't seem like the right thing to do.

 

--Dave

[Rick K.]

Wise choice, Dave. Sounds like you did it correctly, too. Sorry to hear about it, but glad you did.

 

Rick

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by rickkreuzer:

Wise choice, Dave. Sounds like you did it correctly, too. Sorry to hear about it, but glad you did.

 

Rick

Thanks Rick. Nice to hear that!

 

--Dave