Gigasampler sounds- How good are they?

[Jotown]

Hello.

 

I made a post a couple of weeks ago regarding the gigasampler sounds vs the Kurzweil k2500 sounds and I didn't get many respnoses so I am trying again.

 

How do they compare?

 

Specifically pianos, organs, and bass sounds.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Jotown:)

[Dave Bryce]

Do you mean the K2500's ROM sounds? If so, are you basically asking how a 4 MB piano compares to a 770 MB piano?

 

If so, it's actually closer than you might think for a lot of applications. While the Giga samples are (obviously) way longer, the Kurz has a much more powerful engine than Giga does, and so you can do a lot more with the samples themselves.

 

I'd like to see the power of the computer used to give me a bunch more layers, not necessarily single-strike full decay samples of each note. It seems to me that real-time performance control is as important (if not more so) than sample length. When it comes to that aspect, it's pretty tough to beat the Kurzweil engine. Besides, there's so much other stuff going on inside a piano that can't really be sampled - sympathetic resonance comes to mind - that I am actually currently of the opinion that the best approach to reproducing a piano is a combination of modeling and samples, like the Generalmusic stuff.

 

Scott Gould and I listened to a Giga piano (manufacturer unknown) at Summer NAMM and neither of us were slain by it; however, in all fairness, the situation was way less than ideal for a critical evaluation. We both thought that the 770 MB piano should have had a bunch more dynamics than it did. To that end, I asked someone at TASCAM (ahem...cough cough) how many layers that Giga was capable of doing, but I never received an answer...

 

As far as organs go, I haven't heard any Giga organs, but the 2500's B3 mode is really great. Once again, real-time control is the key (no pun intended). I'm not sure that there's any advantage to using longer organ samples, since the sound doesn't really change much over time. (side note - no matter which of these you end up with, get Native intruments B4 - it's the best Hammond emulation that I have heard yet, and doesn't even cost $200!)

 

The Giga basses that I have heard are excellent.

 

I'd really like to spend more time with Giga, though. I am not anywhere near as familiar with its engine and capabilities as I am with the Kurz stuff. Please keep that in mind when reading this...

 

dB

[EXAGON]

I totally agree, i was astonished by the Generalmusic piano sound, every time you press the sustain, you can hear all the strings breathe!!!

[Magpel]

Great response from Dave. I'd only add that with any plain jane sampler, the sound is only as good as the samples and the programming. In other words, I've heard extravagantly large Giga libraries that with lavish sample lengths and velocity layers that are unusable because of suspect samples and poor programming. And We all have heard samples for 8 or 16MB ROMplers that are great and playable because of good sampling.

 

That said, Giga and the other streaming samplers open revolutionary doors to sample developers, and there are dudes out there like Dan Dean and Nick Phoenix and Gary Garritan and Sonic Implants such that are really doing wonderful with unlimited sample size. Also what I love about Giga--you get to be so selective and precise in your purchasing. I just bought a neat accordion sampler that *didn't* also come with my 15th version of GM 127 Applause or "Ice Pad." No waste--build your library according to taste.

[burningbusch]

Giga has an upper limit of 32 velocity splts. If you're using stereo samples that's down to 16 splits. Something like the Post Grandioso piano draws from a pool of seven normal velocity recordings (PPP - FFF), six pedal down levels and four release levels. They are mapped in a variety of different ways all the way up to 16 velocity splts points. The inclusion of pedal down samples in nearly all the GigaSampler pianos adds significantly to the believablity and brings in the resonace of the strings/body of the instrument.

 

Not having to loop samples is a big thing. I've played several ROM-based pianos where the loop, while without audible artifacts, sounded extremely artificial. When you listen to just the sound of the looped samples decaying they sound more organ/synth-like than piano. The idea that the only critical aspect of an instrument is a few seconds at the beginning is, IMHO, simply misguided. Additionally, most ROM-based pianos decay far too quickly, an attempt, no doubt, to minimize the looped sustain stage. I also suspect that looping pedal down samples would be problematic as the overtones are more complex and random than a single note.

 

Also, Giga pianos use far more samples mapped across the keyboard. I've seen anywhere from every note (88) sampled to, worst case, every other note sampled. In contrast, because of ROM/RAM limitations most hardware samplers will use the same samples mapped to four velocities or more. This creates an sound that is very consistent, note-to-note, but as you know if you've played real acoustic pianos, each note is unique. This is one aspect of the Giga pianos that has always impressed me. I like hearing the diversity in tuning, tone, decay, etc. rather than instruments that are artificially consistent.

 

I like how the better Giga pianos are recorded vs. most ROM pianos. Many ROM-based pianos are nearly completely void of any room ambience. Without reverb, they sound very sterile. The Giga pianos, generally, have more room sound in the recordings, upping the believability. The Kurzweil pianos are a good example of this issue.

 

Because of my site (http://www.purgatorycreek.com) and the digital piano shootout, I own (or have heard) nearly every digital piano sample (Giga, RAM, ROM) worth considering. I think ROM-based pianos are fine for practice, live playing and occassionaly recording if buried deep in a mix. But in a recording situation where the piano is exposed, the lack of pedal down samples and all the other compromises make them almost instantly identifiable as fake.

 

Regarding bass, the Larry Seyer Acoustic Bass is flat-out the best acoustic bass library around, nothing even comes close. The Scarbee and Dan Dean basses are also excellent.

 

I owned a K2500 in my past. I had invested somewhere around $6000 into it. Once the Triton and S80 hit I knew Kurzweil couldn't sustain its price points, so I dumped it before its value was cut in half (which happened a few months later).

 

Busch.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Giga has an upper limit of 32 velocity splts. If you're using stereo samples that's down to 16 splits. Something like the Post Grandioso piano draws from a pool of seven normal velocity recordings (PPP - FFF), six pedal down levels and four release levels. They are mapped in a variety of different ways all the way up to 16 velocity splts points. The inclusion of pedal down samples in nearly all the GigaSampler pianos adds significantly to the believablity and brings in the resonace of the strings/body of the instrument.

That's exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks, Bill.

 

I'd really like to hear that sample set and/or any other ones in its same class in a good setting. I'd like to check Kip's sample sets out too - I've heard they're excellent. I was definitely prepared to be floored by the Giga pianos (over-anticipation?), and am still more than open to the possibility of same - as I said above, the chance that I got to audition the one that I heard was in way less than ideal circumstances.

 

dB

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I'd really like to hear that sample set and/or any other ones in its same class in a good setting. I'd like to check Kip's sample sets out too - I've heard they're excellent. I was definitely prepared to be floored by the Giga pianos (over-anticipation?), and am still more than open to the possibility of same - as I said above, the chance that I got to audition the one that I heard was in way less than ideal circumstances.

 

dB....FWIW

 

From the Tascam Forum...

 

"Here is a new mp3 demo of the sampled "Bosendorfer Imperial" in Giga/HALion format, used in the context of a Chick Corea style trio, which also features Dan Dean's acoustic bass and Jim Roseberry's "Purrrfect Drums" from Studio Cat..

Enjoy!

 

http://www.bardstownaudio.com/mp3/chick.mp3

 

Kip

Bardstown Audio

www.bardstownaudio.com"

 

Jonesy

[Dave Bryce]

Thanks, Michael - I'll definitely give that a listen, but I'm much more interested in actually geting a chance to play them myself, not necessarily to hear how someone else records them.

 

Kip has actually kindly offered to let me check the Bosie - now all I need is one of those computers with the peculiar operating system...

 

dB

[Bardstown Audio]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Thanks, Michael - I'll definitely give that a listen, but I'm much more interested in actually geting a chance to play them myself, not necessarily to hear how someone else records them.

 

Kip has actually kindly offered to let me check the Bosie - now all I need is one of those computers with the peculiar operating system...

 

dB

Actually, a couple of weeks ago I released this sampled Bosendorfer Imperial in native EXS24 format, which is the only 24 bit sampled piano in the world, as far as I know.

 

The mp3 demos on our web site were done with the 16 bit Giga version of this sampled Bosendorfer Imperial.

 

It functions very well in Logic/EXS24 on a Macintosh.

 

Kip

Bardstown Audio

www.bardstownaudio.com

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Thanks, Michael - I'll definitely give that a listen, but I'm much more interested in actually geting a chance to play them myself, not necessarily to hear how someone else records them.

 

Kip has actually kindly offered to let me check the Bosie - now all I need is one of those computers with the peculiar operating system...

 

dB

Actually, a couple of weeks ago I released this sampled Bosendorfer Imperial in native EXS24 format, which is the only 24 bit sampled piano in the world, as far as I know.

 

The mp3 demos on our web site were done with the 16 bit Giga version of this sampled Bosendorfer Imperial.

 

It functions very well in Logic/EXS24 on a Macintosh.

 

Kip

Bardstown Audio

www.bardstownaudio.com

...sigh...I'm a Digital Performer guy...

 

Any chance of a SampleTank version? I have that...c'moooooooon, Kip.......you know you want to...

 

I'll be glad to beta test it for you...

 

dB

[progfusion74]

A ST format bosendorfer,

 

OOH I would like that (volunteer beta tester ). Would be a perfect complement to my Sonic Synth Pianos (I think those are mostly Yamaha's and Steinway's).

 

prog

[Poelo]

Dave Bryce wrote:

Scott Gould and I listened to a Giga piano (manufacturer unknown) at Summer NAMM and neither of us were slain by it.

--------------------------------------------

Hey, that's the worst piano for Giga ever!

 

There are Giga-pianos out now that kills everything on market.

 

The piano you're talking about is about 4-5 years old.

 

"Poelo"

[S_Gould]

Poelo - Actually we heard a few different pianos (we were at the mercy of the guy giving the demo) and weren't floored by any of them. I too am intrigued by the potential of Giga, but if what we saw, heard & played was any indication, the sounds out there now need some serious tweaking to take advantage of that potential. Having it run on a user friendly OS would help too (It doesn't even have to be Mac, I'll take BeOS...)

 

Scott

[Poelo]

-S_Gould

I depends what piano you guys heard.

The best two pianos(by far) came out very recently. One new Bossendorfer from a guy living outside Nashville that sounds great(don't think Tascam had that one?), and a new Steinway(that is about 1 month old). Still, again not sure if Tascam had that one.

There is also a good Malmsjo grand.

 

Some sounds are not sold or promoted by Tascam.

 

Poelo

[Dr, Hook]

Originally posted by Poelo:

-S_Gould

I depends what piano you guys heard.

The best two pianos(by far) came out very recently. One new Bossendorfer from a guy living outside Nashville that sounds great(don't think Tascam had that one?), and a new Steinway(that is about 1 month old). Still, again not sure if Tascam had that one.

There is also a good Malmsjo grand.

 

Some sounds are not sold or promoted by Tascam.

 

Poelo

That new Bos. must be the Bardstown Audio (north of Nashville) release, the Imperial. I can vouch for it, it's the best I've ever used. Everyone seems to be trying to decide between the BA Bos. and the recently released Steinway, but I've found that the Bos. is so versatile that it's the only piano you'll need.