Solution: Keyboard Bass, but which?

[Cap]

I'm beginning to think the solution for the keyboard player who needs to supply bass lines may not be in tone generators, splits, MIDIing but in a small keyboard bass. Problem is, which one? On eBay sellers are advertising "untested" Fender Rhodes bass piano (looks heavy, and I can't see how those metal tynes could produce a "true" electric or acoustic bass sound), a Key Bass Keyboard by Rheem (never heard of it, but visually what a conversation piece), and finally a Novation bass station (must be the newest item).

 

Anyone have info about these 3 or any others? I'm just looking for a light keyboard of 20 or so keys that can produce a straight electric bass sound.

 

Thanks,

Cap

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Solution; a $300 Fender Jazz or Precision, or Yamaha BBN4 bass guitar, and a $170 SanSamp Bass D.I. or $350 for a Bass POD.

 

I wasted years trying to get bass parts to sound great after repeated listens, and then I broke down and bought a real bass guitr and have never been happier. (Jazz Bass and Bass POD) Sure, you have to learn to play it but it's infinitely more rewarding than any bass synth and it forces you to play like a bassist.....because you are one.

 

Sorry if I got off topic.

[Krakit]

I have the Rhodes piano bass. It was a must have when I was in The Soft Parade.

 

It isn't so much a bass simulation as it is a replacement. It carrys the low end for you but it isn't a bass guitar.

 

If you really want to add realistic bass to your projects, either hire a bassplayer, buy and learn to play bass or get the best bass patch you can program or buy for the keyboard in that order.

 

For home recording projects, I combine all three methods.

[steinwaym]

I split the keyboard, and run a yamaha module for the bass parts hooked into a volume pedal, because you will always want the balance different, depending on the song. I personally don't like the physical positioning of having two keyboards while playing bass on a different keyboard. I also hate to play keyboard bass, as it is very hard to provide the correct harmonic cushion to a group when you can only play with one hand on the piano, and it is also extremely hard to stretch the beat in the right hand versus the left. I have really never heard anybody who I have really enjoyed do this, it sounds cool when you play bass parts while playing organ, but there is something about the different timbres of the piano/bass that provides too much of a disconnect for me. But in reality, these artistic concerns go out the window when you get offered more money to do both parts!

[Krakit]

I've always been quite comfortable with each hand on a different keyboard.

 

I'm afriad I do not agree with your assessment that if the left hand is playing a bass part that the right hand cannot provide adequate accomponiment.

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

Originally posted by Cap:

I'm beginning to think the solution for the keyboard player who needs to supply bass lines may not be in tone generators, splits, MIDIing but in a small keyboard bass. Problem is, which one? On eBay sellers are advertising "untested" Fender Rhodes bass piano (looks heavy, and I can't see how those metal tynes could produce a "true" electric or acoustic bass sound), a Key Bass Keyboard by Rheem (never heard of it, but visually what a conversation piece), and finally a Novation bass station (must be the newest item).

 

Anyone have info about these 3 or any others? I'm just looking for a light keyboard of 20 or so keys that can produce a straight electric bass sound.

 

Thanks,

Cap

Hey Cap,

 

I have been the keyboard/bass player in many different bands and have played many styles for too many years! LOL

First off; some of these "dinosaurs" that you listed were a couple of the only alternatives available many years ago...... outside of playing a Hammond. I don't know what type of bass you are trying to re-create, however with today's technology.....you have alot of options.

I learned a long time ago that a synth or sampler copying another instrument has it's limitaions, because an acoustic instrument has so many variables as opposed to a one or two dimensional "snapshot" of the sound.

Example: [keyboard playing a horn section].

Kind of the same principle if you use any kind of sample player (digital piano, Hammond clone, synth strings/horns etc).

I would check out different synths/modules to audition what works best with your sonic expectations & playing skills.

I used to use an Alesis Nano Bass module for my sounds in addition to a Korg 01-W. Recently, I began using some of the "triple-strike" programs off of my Kurzweil PC2r.

 

Bottom line:

 

I don't try to sell myself as a true bassist....because I know what the real instrument can do with the right player......but I can succesfully emulate a string/electric bass sound onstage with a band.......well enough to fool even bass players!

 

Remember...It's not always what you say................but........ How-you-say-it!!!!

 

Surreal

[Cap]

"I don't try to sell myself as a true bassist....because I know what the real instrument can do with the right player......but I can succesfully emulate a string/electric bass sound onstage with a band.......well enough to fool even bass players!"

 

Hope you don't have to confront them afterwards. Even this posting seemed to provoke some paranoia (I didn't realize bass players hung out on this board). I agree that the "acoustic" patches don't sound good when played with digital piano along, but they work well when layered with ride cymbal and with vibes in the right hand. The most practical sound, though, is a "characterless" electric bass sound (no treble, funky attacks, etc.). Also, the sound of a Hammond B3 pedalboard bass--which for some reason I've been unable to pull out of a Kurzweil PC2.

 

A keyboard bassist can't catch all the rhythmic stuff and articulations of the real deal. But at the risk of sounding immodest, I prefer my chords and time to most of the bass players I've worked with.

 

Cap

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

Originally posted by Cap:

"I don't try to sell myself as a true bassist....because I know what the real instrument can do with the right player......but I can succesfully emulate a string/electric bass sound onstage with a band.......well enough to fool even bass players!"

 

Hope you don't have to confront them afterwards. Even this posting seemed to provoke some paranoia (I didn't realize bass players hung out on this board). I agree that the "acoustic" patches don't sound good when played with digital piano along, but they work well when layered with ride cymbal and with vibes in the right hand. The most practical sound, though, is a "characterless" electric bass sound (no treble, funky attacks, etc.). Also, the sound of a Hammond B3 pedalboard bass--which for some reason I've been unable to pull out of a Kurzweil PC2.

 

A keyboard bassist can't catch all the rhythmic stuff and articulations of the real deal. But at the risk of sounding immodest, I prefer my chords and time to most of the bass players I've worked with.

 

Cap

Actually, I have been confronted by bass players whom primarily are complimentary.

I was a little confused in your reference to my post "provoking some paranoia"? Maybe you could elaborate?

I would assume that since I am hired in a professional capacity to perform keyboard/key bass duties, when there is no other instrument playing the bass....I guess that would make me THE BASS PLAYER! LOL!!! And since I don't perform on the "Fender" variety.....I frequent this forum!

 

One other very important aspect of this "bass" quest, that I omitted from my previous post is amp/speaker relationship. If you truly want to have your bass voice stand on it's own; run it thru a Trace Elliot or Genz Benz bass amp(or something comparible).

 

Finally, as with most topics on this and other forums; everything is pretty "subjective". "IMHO" speaks the loudest truth. Cap, it seems that you have taken the time to offer some of your opinions on what particular bass sounds that you feel sort of work and ones that don't. That's okay with me because it is YOUR opinion!

Before I would attempt to make a "blanket" statement of "A keyboard bassist can't catch all of the rythmic stuff and articulations of the real deal"......I would keep an open mind and ear........because there are players that have the skill and perfected enough of their craft to accomplish these tasks.

Listen to what Joey DeFrancesco does with his trio.....and tell me you're missing THE REAL DEAL!

 

Peace,

 

Surreal

[Cap]

By "paranoia" I was referring to the first response, which suggested I should buy and master an electric bass or forget it.

 

I agree there are guys like De Francesca who seem to have 2 brains, one delicated to each melodic/rhythmic voice. Still, you get into some of the Lorber jazz/fusion stuff and it's pretty hard to see how someone could play both the bass and keyboard figures simultaneously--at least in "real" time.

 

best,

Cap

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Originally posted by Cap:

By "paranoia" I was referring to the first response, which suggested I should buy and master an electric bass or forget it.

Cap

I didn't say "master an electric bass or forget it". I said "playing a real bass is infinitely more rewarding than playing synth bass". If that sounds paranoid to you then we have a breakdown in communication. I've been playing keyboards/synths for 16 years and bass guitar for almost two years and I'm hardly "a paranoid bassist". I've used many good synths for bass, a Minimoog, Moog Source, Roland D50, and an Oberheim Matrix-6.

 

Check out an Access Virus Rack or Korg MS2000 if you want an affordable good sounding synth bass.

 

....and don't even try playing that preset on your ROMpler called "Van Halen". You KNOW it's going to suck compared to a Strat through a Marshall stack.

[Tedly Nightshade]

I play with a keys player who has a separate left hand personality entirely, who we call "Jones" for his uncanny resemblence to John Paul Jones. The keys player is a she, but the left hand is unmistakeably masculine- I guess her animus.

The main joke here is that the keys and bass player are REALLY TIGHT!

We could gain sometimes by having a truly exceptional bass guitarist, but the keys player can improvise the entire harmonic situation, whatever chords, whatever key, and that is impossible to do in the same way with a bass guitarist.

The best bass tones we've found sound a lot like the lower manual of a Hammond, not the pedals. And how cool to go clear down to low A!