Stockhausen critiques electronica

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

I live in a lydian world, so sue me. Okay, I'll shut up now.

 

- Jeff

[marino]

I hesitated to reply to this thread - It's familiar, but mined territory. I'm rather familiar with Stockhausen's work; I went to a number of performances, including the rehearsals for the Italian premieres of Hymnen and Inori. I got the LPs of many works; I rather like Stimmung, Mantra and several other pieces, and strongly dislike others; I've studied Klavierstuck IX as a conservatory student, and I've played the whole of Tierkreis on the piano. Also, I've used Aus Des Sieben Tagen as didactic pieces in my improvisation courses.

 

The "problem" with contemporary music/art is huge and well known - it's not music for the big audiences anymore. On the other hand, the composers, without the challenge of a response from the audience, often tend to write for themselves and the "elect few" who can appreciate and "understand" their work. Stockhausen, in particular, seems to suffer from a messianic syndrome: He kind of believes he's entitled to save the world, or the music at least. See the "educative" value he attaches to his compositions. To me, the matter is simple: I like some of his music, I dislike the rest.

 

Some related problems:

 

First, to me, is the almost total lack of communication among different music genres. That's not healthy at all. Imagine what pop music could become if songwriters listened to some "academic" work, and vice versa! Put also in the picture Indian, Middle-Eastern, African music, etc. and you've a very interesting bunch of possibilities. Rock/pop music kind of do that, but reducing everything to the lowest common denominator - very square rhythms, little snippets of sounds to give a flavor, and nothing more. They say they do it so the big audiences can "understand" it. (and the corporate labels can make a whole lot of fast bucks) I think that's bullshit - It's mainly a matter of exposition. People should have the right to listen to several different (and I mean REALLY different) kinds of music, and doing so IN THEIR FORMATIVE YEARS. I'm talking about freedom of choice! If you ignored the existence of any music that's different from pop/rock for the first 30 years of your life, because that's all you hear from the radio, it's very unlikely that you suddendly starts to appreciate Stockhausen...

On the other hand, "serious" composer could learn a thing or two from songwriters - some of them have already started to reconsider the "progress" of music. After all, music has its own laws of balance and tension/release; and now that everything is possible, why not to start writing "beautiful" music again... It doesn't have to be square, corny, or naively "rebellious" - it only has to really mean something.

 

There would be a million other considerations to make, but it's getting late...

To end on a positive note, I'd like to suggest some contemporary/electronic composers I really enjoy to listen to: Gyorgy Ligeti, Michael McNabb, William Schottstaedt, Tod Machover, Michelangelo Lupone.

 

Hey, and please forgive a few English mistakes - it's late night and languages are starting to mix and blur in my head!!

 

Carlo

[whitefang]

Well, Carlo, I may not disagree with a lot of what you state. Most long successful composers DO

get a messiahnic complex. Just read the histories of Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner and Stravinsky, to name a few. Not any of them are known for their consistancy in great works. Even me, a near 40-year Bob Dylan fan, own no recordings of his from the '80's and early '90's.

Most of that stuff was far below his known potential. But there WAS a TV commercial, selling I can't recall what, that brought up the fact that Babe Ruth hit 414(?) career home runs.

But he also struck out a thousand more times!

 

But I DO disagree with the comment that if one is brought up without a variety of musical influence

they'll wind up knowing nothing better than mindless pop music. My children spent their entire lives hearing everything from Aerosmith to Zappa; Bird to Zawinul; Bach to Wagner. Mike Bloomfield to Josh White! And STILL, my oldest

daughter thinks the most profound music is only found at Ozzfest!! The youngest couldn't care less!

 

Go figure!

 

Whitefang

[Bobro]

I've heard quite a bit of Stockhausen's music, and found what I listened to pleasant and entertaining,. I enjoy listening to the music, don't know if Stockhausen himself would appreciate that, but that's not important. If I had to come up with one word to describe Stockhausen's public persona, music, and whole schtick, it would be "fun". Collect 'em all! Lotsa bitchin' sounds! Groovy man, if I ever get stuck making pottery and ceramic sculptures, God forbid, I'll get a big fat disc changer, load up some Karlheinz and we'll be 'hausen it til the break of day.

 

Fascist? Nah, I get a kind of post-hippy Atlantis '72 vibe, and his takes on politics and violence and such sound more

along the lines of "Logan's Run" than the Third Reich (which killed his mother, BTW).

 

His spoken ideas I've read aren't very challenging, and not exactly consistent. For example, if such things as work, hours of rehearsal, grandness of concept, scale of endeavor, dedication, etc. are really important, "the greatest work of art imaginable for the whole cosmos" is the exploration of space, not 9/11. As far as repetition, the guy has something like 75 CD's out- hit play again and you've got repetition. If you're serious about avoiding repetition, don't make recordings.

 

What are his motivations? I have no idea, nor does anyone really know that about anyone else. The power of evil and deception lies largely in the idea that one thinks one knows where others are coming from. "Oh he was such a nice quiet boy, who would have thought that he would kill and eat all those people". First thing a dictator learns is how to come across as a "good man" when fundraising.

 

Anyway I can't really knock a guy who talks about space travel and has been churning out shitloads of neato sounds since before I was born.

 

"When I get my hands on some money

I'll kiss its green skin

then I'll prob'ly buy some CD's

from Karlheinz Stawck-hou-zin"

 

(free CD to the first person who can name the tune that's based on).

[Chrono]

Bobro said:

Anyway I can't really knock a guy who talks about space travel and has been churning out shitloads of neato sounds since before I was born.

 

And I say:

Bobro,

Well, I guess I did knock the guy, but I like your attitude on this one and I think I'm going to have to roll with it. Thanks.

 

-Chrono

[Magpel]

Wasn't Stockhausen the seventh Beatle?

 

Babe Ruth hit *714,* a lot more than Dylan. 414? You must be thinking of Dave Kingman.

[Bobro]

Originally posted by Magpel:

Wasn't Stockhausen the seventh Beatle?

 

Babe Ruth hit *714,* a lot more than Dylan. 414? You must be thinking of Dave Kingman.

Ol' Karlheinz- actually young and hep-looking Karlheinz- is on the cover of SPLHCB, fifth from left top row.

[Magpel]

Originally posted by Bobro:

Ol' Karlheinz- actually young and hep-looking Karlheinz- is on the cover of SPLHCB, fifth from left top row.

Yeah, but even I am on the cover of sgt. pep., somewhere. Last time I checked. Right between Aleister Crowley and Gladstone. Didn't K'heinz actually confer a but with the Beatles, Paul in paricular, and lay a little hep on them? My Beatle lore is rusty, but I seem to recall this happening.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by Magpel:

Yeah, but even I am on the cover of sgt. pep., somewhere.

Nuh-uh!

 

- Jeff

[Bobro]

Paul suggested Karl for the cover, but it was Lennon (what a surprise) who knew and was influenced by Stockhausen. Check this out...

 

http://www.geocities.com/hammodotcom/beathoven/r9stock.htm

[Magpel]

Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy:

Originally posted by Magpel:

Yeah, but even I am on the cover of sgt. pep., somewhere.

Nuh-uh!

 

- Jeff

uh, yeh--ess. I'm on *my* cover of Sgt. Pep. A little pre-photoshop doctoring.

[whitefang]

Originally posted by Magpel:

Wasn't Stockhausen the seventh Beatle?

 

Babe Ruth hit *714,* a lot more than Dylan. 414? You must be thinking of Dave Kingman.

No, wasn't thinking of Kingman. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure WHAT I was thinking of! Just bad with numbers. Had a cell phone for two years now, and STILL don;t know it's friggin' number!

 

I'll have to call me more often!

 

And if Karl was the seventh Beatle, who was the sixth? Yoko? Or George Martin?

 

Whitefang

[Magpel]

Hmmm. George Martin and Brian and Epstein were the 5th and 6th, not counting Stu Sutcliffe or Pete Best.

[whitefang]

Originally posted by Magpel:

Hmmm. George Martin and Brian and Epstein were the 5th and 6th, not counting Stu Sutcliffe or Pete Best.

Are you saying Yoko WASN'T counted as one of The Beatles?

 

Hmmmm.....

 

So! There IS a God!

 

Whitefang

[Steve LeBlanc]

tsk tsk...how can you leave out Billy Preston?

 

As far as the Stockhausen stuff...HAHA...who cares...just a crazy old dude giving his opinion because people actually WANT TO HEAR IT.

 

 

Music is fluid...I don't think definitions are necessary unless you have too much time on your hands.

[whitefang]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

As far as the Stockhausen stuff...HAHA...who cares...just a crazy old dude giving his opinion because people actually WANT TO HEAR IT

Well, It gave us all something to talk about, didn't it?

 

Whitefang

[mjudge55]

Originally posted by Bobro:

I've heard quite a bit of Stockhausen's music, and found what I listened to pleasant and entertaining,. I enjoy listening to the music, don't know if Stockhausen himself would appreciate that, but that's not important. If I had to come up with one word to describe Stockhausen's public persona, music, and whole schtick, it would be "fun". Collect 'em all! Lotsa bitchin' sounds! Groovy man, if I ever get stuck making pottery and ceramic sculptures, God forbid, I'll get a big fat disc changer, load up some Karlheinz and we'll be 'hausen it til the break of day.

 

Fascist? Nah, I get a kind of post-hippy Atlantis '72 vibe, and his takes on politics and violence and such sound more

along the lines of "Logan's Run" than the Third Reich (which killed his mother, BTW).

 

His spoken ideas I've read aren't very challenging, and not exactly consistent. For example, if such things as work, hours of rehearsal, grandness of concept, scale of endeavor, dedication, etc. are really important, "the greatest work of art imaginable for the whole cosmos" is the exploration of space, not 9/11. As far as repetition, the guy has something like 75 CD's out- hit play again and you've got repetition. If you're serious about avoiding repetition, don't make recordings.

 

What are his motivations? I have no idea, nor does anyone really know that about anyone else. The power of evil and deception lies largely in the idea that one thinks one knows where others are coming from. "Oh he was such a nice quiet boy, who would have thought that he would kill and eat all those people". First thing a dictator learns is how to come across as a "good man" when fundraising.

 

Anyway I can't really knock a guy who talks about space travel and has been churning out shitloads of neato sounds since before I was born.

 

"When I get my hands on some money

I'll kiss its green skin

then I'll prob'ly buy some CD's

from Karlheinz Stawck-hou-zin"

 

(free CD to the first person who can name the tune that's based on).

"Failure", by the Swans. Incidentally, Michael Gira has some harsh criticisms of electronic music too, stemming from his experience on a recent tour of Europe. I love electronic music, and I think it would be great if more people like Gira, whose strong personality comes through in his music, would get interested in Electronic music.

[mjudge55]

Originally posted by Bobro:

 

"When I get my hands on some money

I'll kiss its green skin

then I'll prob'ly buy some CD's

from Karlheinz Stawck-hou-zin"

 

(free CD to the first person who can name the tune that's based on).

"Failure", by the Swans. Incidentally, Michael Gira has some harsh criticisms of (most) electronic music too, stemming from his experience on a recent tour of Europe. I love electronic music, and I think it would be great if more people like Gira, whose strong personality comes through in his music, would get interested in Electronic music.

[Bobro]

Originally posted by mjudge55:

Originally posted by Bobro:

 

"When I get my hands on some money

I'll kiss its green skin

then I'll prob'ly buy some CD's

from Karlheinz Stawck-hou-zin"

 

(free CD to the first person who can name the tune that's based on).

"Failure", by the Swans. Incidentally, Michael Gira has some harsh criticisms of (most) electronic music too, stemming from his experience on a recent tour of Europe. I love electronic music, and I think it would be great if more people like Gira, whose strong personality comes through in his music, would get interested in Electronic music.

Yes, that's it. Hehe, it's a great song. I first heard the Swans years ago- the "Swan Jovi" bootleg had just come out. I think they're a great band, nothing else for example captures in that way that feeling you get when you're lost on a country highway and drive past an abandoned house. Never owned any of their albums, though, I'd like to pick up Children of God. Float me a PO Box or address and I'll send you a CD! A pleasant surprise that someone got that one, but really this community is so diverse and diversified, it shouldn't be a surprise.

[mjudge55]

Originally posted by Bobro:

Originally posted by mjudge55:

Originally posted by Bobro:

 

"When I get my hands on some money

I'll kiss its green skin

then I'll prob'ly buy some CD's

from Karlheinz Stawck-hou-zin"

 

(free CD to the first person who can name the tune that's based on).

"Failure", by the Swans. Incidentally, Michael Gira has some harsh criticisms of (most) electronic music too, stemming from his experience on a recent tour of Europe. I love electronic music, and I think it would be great if more people like Gira, whose strong personality comes through in his music, would get interested in Electronic music.

Yes, that's it. Hehe, it's a great song. I first heard the Swans years ago- the "Swan Jovi" bootleg had just come out. I think they're a great band, nothing else for example captures in that way that feeling you get when you're lost on a country highway and drive past an abandoned house. Never owned any of their albums, though, I'd like to pick up Children of God. Float me a PO Box or address and I'll send you a CD! A pleasant surprise that someone got that one, but really this community is so diverse and diversified, it shouldn't be a surprise.

I have a few Swans CDs, and they're all really good, but also very different from one another, so be careful what period you select from. Children of God is supposed to be a classic though, but I've never heard it. Also, check out Gira's new group, Angels of Light -- anything by them. I saw them recently and was completely riveted. Today is the Day is about the only live act that can rival them, as far as I can tell.