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What's a printed circuit designer to do?


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Guys, I've been a printed circuit designer by trade for over 10 years. Of course, the reason I got interested in this stuff in the first place was because I wanted to mess around with my guitar, effects, build little electronic music widgets, etc. Now I'm designing these monster telecom boards at work and I'm realizing that it just isn't that much fun anymore...and I never have any time to spend on my own hobby projects either. So, does anyone know of a way to get into one of the music companies as a PC designer? Silly question, I guess..."send them a resume, stupid!" The problem is, where would I start? I'm not even sure which companies are U.S.-based anymore. At least it is a job that lends itself to telecommuting; maybe that wouldn't be such a big issue. I really do think my dream job would be laying out PC boards for stomp boxes all day long (failing the rock-star gig). I'd appreciate any ideas/advice. Life is too short to sit in a cube 12 hours a day when you have no interest in the end product! Thanks a ton, Rog
None more black.
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Rog... BIG YES! You can design audio PCBs and make a good living at it! While, most audio companies might not be able to pay as much as some huge telcom company, you can work on stuff you really enjoy. With all of the demand for computer audio interfaces there are LOTS of companies who are ALWAYS looking for someone with your skills. You can start finding some audio makers simply by getting a audio magazine and checking their websites. They may not post that they need you... but send in your resume anyway... Really... just about every company needs folks like you right now... here are a couple to start with: http://www.motu.com/english/other/career/index.html http://www.jblpro.com/pages/jobs.htm http://www.apogeedigital.com/contact/jobs/index.html http://www.qscaudio.com/ Enjoy! Let us know how it goes! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Valky ------------------ Valkyrie Sound [url=http://www.vsoundinc.com]www.vsoundinc.com[/url] This message has been edited by valkyriesound on 09-26-2001 at 01:50 AM

Valkyrie Sound:

http://www.vsoundinc.com

Now at TSUTAYA USA:

http://www.tsutayausa.com

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Rog, these telecom pc boards you design, they're printed on both sides right? Do you use a computer program to lay the boards out? Say, something where you enter in the schematics and it designs the layout for you? I can't imagine doing it manually, even the thought boggles my mind.. I've been wanting to get into building my own gear, but the thought of having to design the pc board layout scares me. I've done basic design, like taking a simple schematic, laying it out on a breadboard and then designing the board from there, but I could imagine how more complex designs would be extremely challenging...any ideas on how this could be simplified a bit? Thanks, Harold
meh
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DougP: Thanks, but if that guy works full time at Maxim, they must not be even close to as busy there as we are here. My nights are tied-up, my weekends are usually tied-up...there's no way I'd ever have enough time to pursue a hobby like that guy. I AM totally jealous, though! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Valky: Thank you for the words of encouragement! I really appreciate all the effort you put forth. I will definitely look into these companies. I wonder how open they might be to telecommuting. I live in the Washington DC area and I'm not too interested in uprooting myself at this point. I guess beggars can't be choosers, though...besides, with all the craziness in the world these days, DC might not end up being the best place to raise a family, huh? Earlier this year, we had some lay-offs where I work and I decided to put some feelers out. I was amazed, especially considering the sorry state of the general job market, at how many opportunities were available for PCB designers. It truly is a "niche" career...there aren't lots of us out there and even fewer that are good at it (I found that out the hard way when we were interviewing new hires a few years ago). At any rate, thanks again for all your help. Maybe I'll luck into something.
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Harold: The boards we design are not only printed on both sides, but there are almost invariably several conductive layers sandwiched between. These days, multi-layer boards are the norm. I've done boards with as many as 20 layers myself. Just like we used to record on 4-tracks, technology keeps moving forward. And, as you surmised, it's all done with software. The way it usually works is that an electrical engineer will design the circuit using schematic capture software (or he'll write it on a napkin and I'll capture it for him [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]). From the schematic, you generate a bill of materials (parts list) and a net list. The net list contains all the component footprint info and the info on connectivity. This can be dumped into a compatible layout software tool and you go from there. You can place the component footprints wherever you like and then route the traces. Some programs can place the parts automatically (although I've never been happy with auto-placement) and most have auto-routing capabilities as well. For digital stuff, where routing isn't too critical, the autorouter usually works ok as long as you've done a good placement. For RF, super high-speed digital and most analog stuff I prefer to route the traces manually. I guess that's about it in a nutshell.
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Harold, Looking back over me post, I realized that I probably didn't answer your question. As far as doing designs yourself, I don't think the problem will really lie with your ability to do the work itself (I'm from the "if I can do it, anyone can" school of thought). It can be a complicated thing, but if you keep at it, you'll get the hang of it. The biggest problems will be the cost of the software needed and the cost of having the boards fabricated when you're finished. Some of these software packages cost LOTS of money. OrCAD, for instance, is not even one of the more expensive ones and it's around $10,000 a seat. That said, I'm sure there are some cheaper ones out there that will do the job fine. The big cost will be getting the boards made. If you're just doing one or two boards for yourself, there's no way to make the numbers crunch. There are such big set-up costs from the fab houses that it'll cost you upwards of a thousand bucks for even a small board. The only way to get the per/board cost down is to run large quantities...obviously not something a hobbyist is going to do. What I've been able to do in the past is to get permission from my employer to kinda "tack on" one of my personal designs to a prototype that the company was sending out already. I wish I knew of a better way or had something more positive to tell you. There may be a way to output the individual layer information onto transparencies and then transfer that image to a copper-clad PC blank somehow. Then you'd have to etch the thing yourself and drill the thru-holes, etc. It'd be a PIA, though. Man, I remember doing those single-sided boards back in the day; drawing the traces with a magic marker or fingernail polish and dropping the thing into a ferric oxide bath. I've still got a pair of pants with the stains on 'em [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] And I've still got one of Craig's "tube-sound fuzzes" I built that way. The damn thing sounds awesome even today. Anyway, sorry to sound so discouraging. Maybe someone on here knows an easier/cheaper way? Best of luck!
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[quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]DougP: Thanks, but if that guy works full time at Maxim, they must not be even close to as busy there as we are here. My nights are tied-up, my weekends are usually tied-up...there's no way I'd ever have enough time to pursue a hobby like that guy. I AM totally jealous, though! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] Hi Rog! Actually, I think he's a freelancer, since he goes through down-periods, when he works on R&D for the synth modules, but then gets delayed from the "hobby" for six weeks at a time when he has a major Maxim job. And since he's a freelancer, he has his own CAD workstation at home that he could write off on his taxes, which he uses to lay out the modules (which are on double-sided circuit boards). Great quality kits (noticeably higher quality than PAiA, which are perfectly good themselves), BTW; highly recommended for anyone into analog synths and building electronics. Sorry, that all probably made you even more jealous! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] But at least you made me feel good about the fact that I was unable to get a job on the PCB-design track (which was, at the time, what I REALLY REALLY wanted to do) when I graduated from college (BSEE from an allegedly "prestigious" east coast private university that -erm- isn't too far from where you live). I hope you find something better to do where you can apply your *passions* as well as your skills/talents (and have a little bit of free time, too). Best of luck!
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Also, here are some other "hobbyist" (essentially one-man operation) companies that make stuff involving small-run PCB's (some just sell boards, some kits, some fuly-assembled units). Folks like Tony Allgood (Oakley) and Grant Richter (Wiard) might be good people to contact about the economics of such operations (I can't help at all with getting AutoCAD cheap, though!): http://www.wiard.com/ http://www.tidalmusic.com/ http://24.12.85.234/larry/diy.htm http://www.oakleysound.com/projects.htm
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Rold, re: cheapo hobby PC boards, Get to Indigo/Chapters, or even most convenience stores, grab an issue of Poptronix, usually around the home theatre, video, photography section, pay the few bucks and you'll have all kinds of ads for entry level software and other ads for materials. If you can't find that, look for a tabloid size thing called Nuts & Volts, rare in Canada, not all Chapters have it, but it's great to have even one issue of N&V just to see all the cool stuff out there for microprocessors and robotics hacking. Then you go to [url=http://www.tinaja.com,]www.tinaja.com,[/url] search through the resources and come up with more suppliers and techniques. Other than the design software, you'll be up to speed on the most convenient ways to actually make the boards for one-offs. Charlie This message has been edited by Charlie-brm on 09-27-2001 at 11:54 AM
It's OK to tempt fate. Just don't drop your drawers and moon her.
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Hey guys, Thanks for the help! I'll be sure to look into the links and publications you guys posted. Rog, wow up to 20 layers? That's insane! Now THAT would be a challenge to lay out without software, nevermind my 2-sided concerns.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Whatever projects I do I'll probably be etching the pcb's myself; it's fairly easy with all the kits floating around. Mind you, these boards are definitely NOT going to be layered.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] Thanks again, Harold
meh
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Check out http://www.apcircuits.com too They are cheap and fast for low quantity prototype circuit boards. You need to be able to supply gerber files, but the suggestion to get Nuts & Volts is a good one, there are a couple of low cost packages that will output gerber, the universal file format for production of pcb's. I use Protel daily, it's mostly ok, and still pretty pricey, up about $5k or so. I think CirCad is one of the pretty cheap programs that does anything a hobbiest could want. Advanced Printed Circuits is also good for low cost short runs. They have a deal going now for $33 a board, with not too many restrictions. Making your own boards is an exercise in self abuse. It's a mess.
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[quote]Originally posted by DougP: [b] Hi Rog! Actually, I think he's a freelancer [/b] [/quote] Damn good for him...that's the way to make the $$$. We occasionally pick up guys here on a contractual basis to help when things get super hot 'n' heavy. They'll usually pocket between $75 and $100 per hour depending on their experience. I've been thinking about exploring it for a while myself, but I'm not sure I'm cut out for it. You've gotta pay for all your health care, no paid time off, etc. Man, I'm really sounding like a little wuss. I guess I've had it too cushy for too long! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I've done some freelance work here and there, but I'm not sure I've got the stomach to rely on that alone. BTW, I've got my own CAD station home too but since it doubles as my personal PC, I'm not allowed to claim it. I'm afraid the IRS man might sneak up on me and catch me playing Quake III [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [quote] [b] But at least you made me feel good about the fact that I was unable to get a job on the PCB-design track (which was, at the time, what I REALLY REALLY wanted to do) when I graduated from college (BSEE from an allegedly "prestigious" east coast private university that -erm- isn't too far from where you live) [/b] [/quote] Yeah, sorry 'bout that [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I think most of the jobs I saw were for experienced designers. Entry-level stuff is hard to find. I lucked into my first job based on some people I knew and the fact that I'd been playing around in my garage for years, building projects from Craig's books. I only have an associate degree and a few basic electronics courses under my belt so I got really lucky. Also, if it makes you feel better, the people you interviewed with probably thought you were overqualified. They probably thought you were in it for the short term and would leave for the first EE position you could find. So, where'd you go to school? This message has been edited by rog951 on 09-27-2001 at 06:41 PM
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Dan, I've actually used Advanced before...I didn't realize their prices were so good! I was lucky enough to not be the one that paid the invoice [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] If that price is correct and there are no non-recurring setup charges involved, that's the way to go for sure. Etching is just a pain. Those prices MUST be for single-sided boards, right? If I remember right, the boards we got from them were a little funky...the registration between the layers was off, but this would be a non-problem for any hobbyist. Besides, we were pushing them to get the boards fast so you'd expect a little sloppiness. What's really cool is that you could find out how big their maximum panel size is for a given price and then just put several designs on the same panel and saw 'em apart later. That'd maximize the $$$ outlay. I'm kinda excited by the prospect...thanks SO much for the info! Protel is about the only current package I haven't used. There are some EEs I know that swear by it...the schematic side must really be nice. I'm using Mentor/Veribest right now. We still have some "legacy" boards done in OrCAD Layout so I use that allot too (I own my own seat). P-CAD and Pads are my fallback options...I've used those at other jobs but not the latest versions.
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