over production Vs. under production?

[Cowfingers]

when do you all think and album is over produced? is it when it just sounds too perfect? no gaps or glitches? and is phil spector the biggest culprit ever!? and then what about underproduction?

[Gulliver]

An overproduced song? When tons of autotune are applied to vocals and the results ARE noticeable. Too perfect? Is this a bad thing? Besides, I have to hear that TOO perfect song yet... No gaps or glitches? I think that should be the norm. Phil Spector? Who the hell is Phil Spector? :D Underproduction? Just listen to the radio! :D Conclusion: overproduction (tons of autotune) = underproduction (bad taste).

[fantasticsound]

Overproduction - according to the fantasticsound dictionary of audio terms; See [i]Asia - Astra[/i] :freak:

[Jotown]

To me, if a song can't be conveyed or performed with just a guitar, or piano and vocal. It isn't a song yet, so I start there. I hear alot of contemporary music on the radio that by that definition aren't even songs, just productions. So for me it starts with the song. After that it gets down to what is the best way to get that song across? Sometimes it could just be a solo vocal, like Me and a gun, by Tori Amos. It works and it perfectly conveys the stark and lonley lyrics. Other songs require a more heavy handed treatment. There isn't neeccesarily a right or wrong, or over or under produced thing. It's about the song and what it takes to best convey it. Just my opinion.

[Henchman]

Underproduction and overproduction are equally as bad. Overproduction= They didn't stop when they should have, thus killing the songs vibe. Underproduction= They didn't keep working to bring the song to it's full potential. When you do neither of the above you have perfect production.

[Philip OKeefe]

Both are bad. Overproduction is, IMO, probably worse. A great song can usually be conveyed to the listener with just the bare essentials - voice and piano or voice and guitar. That simple arrangement / production may not "frame" the song in as flattering a manner, but a great song is still a great song, even if it's a simple ("under") production. All the glossy production in the world won't help a poor to mediocre song. And too much production on a great song is like sticking the Mona Lisa into a solid gold frame that's 14" wide and encrusted with diamonds, rubies, sapphires and opals. Sure, it's an expensive frame, but it is gaudy and just detracts from the picture instead of highlighting it.

[videoeditor1]

[quote]Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: [b]Both are bad. Overproduction is, IMO, probably worse. A great song can usually be conveyed to the listener with just the bare essentials - voice and piano or voice and guitar...[/b][/quote]Yeah Phil, except if you're into some serious "world beat" stuff that uses mostly percussions to accompany voice... Personally, I like those spaces between each note played. When those spaces tend to get filled up, and the song sounds "busy", it's overproduced for me. And, given that for any song, the "magic" can happen at tracking or mixing or the performance, certainly overproduction can (and will) happen at each or any or (forbid) all of these stages. Tangentially, I hear that JZ/Rokafella/DefJam(?) is kicking upwards of $4Mil on his upcoming double CD. Do y ou think laying out this loot is justified? At $20/pop, $4Mil would have bought 200k units. What's the deal here?

[Nawor]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]To me, if a song can't be conveyed or performed with just a guitar, or piano and vocal. It isn't a song yet, so I start there. I hear alot of contemporary music on the radio that by that definition aren't even songs, just productions. So for me it starts with the song. After that it gets down to what is the best way to get that song across? Sometimes it could just be a solo vocal, like Me and a gun, by Tori Amos. It works and it perfectly conveys the stark and lonley lyrics. Other songs require a more heavy handed treatment. There isn't neeccesarily a right or wrong, or over or under produced thing. It's about the song and what it takes to best convey it. Just my opinion.[/b][/quote]I agree completely. I've had various people send me demo's over time (haven't we all) buried under layers of nauseus cheap production even though they intend to record it 'properly' later on. (bad Casio keyboard sounds & eighties snare drums... :eek: ) Often the song either isn't that good or it's been decimated by the production. I try and politely suggest that unless they really want do the whole shebang themselves, (with the Casio :eek: ) just demo it with an acoustic guitar or piano, like you said, and see if it really stands up on it's own. If it does, then the song itself invariably dictates it own production requirements.. no matter how small or large. It's often difficult to convince someone to go back to basics after they have put so much effort into overproducing a demo for a potentially great song. By then they've heard it so many times they can't imagine it any other way... apart from better sound quality. But it's like watching a child grow to hear a new song with potential, in it's infancy, turn into some big and wonderful... production included. :)

[aliengroover]

I disagree with the premise that a great song doesn't need x-amount of production and can be done with just vocals and guitar. If that's the case, then you can say that much of James Brown and the JB's and Parliament/Funkadelic's stuff isn't of the great song variety. Those songs were built on grooves, and that groove is the song. I do agree that there is much overproduction, or has been, in a lot of music lately. From The Wall of Sound to Max Martin and Company's Cheiron, there's just some stuff that is too much to stomach. And in those cases, you can strip alot of the excess and still get your Pop hit fix. I think that the whole Auto-Tune, ProTools, whatever hate is gettin old. Just because these "tools" are utilized heavily doesn't lend a song to being overproduced. Take J-Lo's music for instance...the "I'm Real Remix"...you KNOW Autotune is all over her vocals, but that song is far from being "overproduced". Conversely, I don't think there's such a thing as underproduction. Misguided production? Yes. Garbage production? Yes. Underproduction? No. Sarah's "Angel" is superbly produced, naked, with basically just vocals and piano. Peace

[mars_dup1]

Underproduction is relative. I'm always blown away when someone can make a great track/groove with very few elements. Almost everything by the Neptunes comes to mind - esp. Nelly, Mystikal, Clipse and N'Syncs "Girlfriend" - all just drums, bass, a few guitars and one hell of a groove. On the other hand, I was always a big Quincy Jones fan - big sound without it seeming to have a lot going on - "Billy Jean" for e.g. Took a LOT of listening to decipher the multiple layers of that track. Next to that stuff, nearly everything nowadays sounds underproduced. I thonk what's lacking is really the art of arrangement.

[phaeton]

I think everyone has a different opinion on "overproduced". Some types of music have a lot going on in them- Look at symphony orchestra or even big band era swing. Sometimes i think having so much going on in the song is they key for that particular song. Sure, old recordings of Howlin Wolf with 4 people and a single shot at a pair of mikes are great for thier purity, but the more "dense" stuff can also lend itself to having a lot of really neat little songs in the song. It's all in perception and where you define "over" , "under", "sideways" and "down". just mho. ================================================== #include

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by aliengroover: [b]I disagree with the premise that a great song doesn't need x-amount of production and can be done with just vocals and guitar. If that's the case, then you can say that much of James Brown and the JB's and Parliament/Funkadelic's stuff isn't of the great song variety. Those songs were built on grooves, and that groove is the song.[/b][/quote]Hey aliengroover, The point was that before production, the song should be able to stand up with gtr,or piano accompaniment. Then you could asses what kind of production the song needs. As you said "and that groove is the song".By the way I do an acoustic version of Sex Machine by James Brown. People seem to like it so I guess that means it stand up as a song. I do get what you are saying about groove oriented songs. As you said "and that groove is the song".

[Griffinator]

I dunno. Maybe the relativity of the production is still based on the relativity of the skill of the songwriter. There are so many variables to consider - genre, mood, tempo, the list goes on and on. I had someone tell me once in a review of an old album cut that they thought it was a "typical overproduced 80's rock ballad" because it was a slow, plodding, piano-based job with guitar, bass and drums. Overproduced? We layered a string synth on the piano - maybe that's what he meant? I'd say that a song is overproduced when everything is drenched in gaudy FX that don't contribute to the mood or feel of the track.

[Tusker]

I am sure there are all kinds of inappropriate production. And for sure that's the producer's fault. But very often..... [i]overproduction[/i] is an indication that the song didn't have enough writing and performance to commend it to anyone." The Phil Spectorized [i]Long and Winding Road[/i] is fine in my book, because the song already had some nuance, something unique to say. There's a lot of sow's ear songs running around today looking for a producer to redeem them. Many of these [i]"overproduced"[/i] songs are contrived to a demographic. They have never been live-tested and do not have a life of their own. They can't be fixed in production. The problem should be fixed at the source. Jerry

[ernest828]

I agree with Tusker about over production. I love Seals albums not because the songs are totally great but the production is amazing. I`m not saying Seal is a bad songwriter because I wish I penned some of that stuff but huis albums are so produced and sound so good I listen to them for ideas, not for enjoyment. Underproduced? Is there such a thing? Some of the greatest recordings are just piano and vocal or guitar and vocal. I wouldn`t call radio underproduced but I would call it over compressed. Ernest

[Salyphus]

I agree with Ernest on this one, I'm not sure if [i]Underproduced[/i] is necessarily a bad thing, whereas Overproduced definitely has a negative connotation. For example, if you're familiar with George Harrison's excellent All Things Must Pass album, try to get ahold of the Beware of ABCKO bootleg. These are 'demo versions' of the songs recorded at the start of album production, and are mostly just George playing acoustic guitar and singing. AMAZING stuff! Sure, the performances are far from perfect, but the honesty and feeling that you get more than makes up for that IMO. And the songs are excellent. I actually prefer these versions to the (IMO) somewhat overproduced (by Phil Spector) versions on the actual ATMP release.

[Cup]

Over production V's under production ?? :freak: Under production to me, is simply a song in it's rawest form. Many Musicians strive for that raw sound. (I know I think it's cool, think of Albibi's work (the little of it I've heard admittedly) Over production ? I think I've only ever heard that on demo's by small recording studio's. Big studio's with a lot of money (yes it's sad that money USUALLY = good production) always get the sound they're after...every little detail you hear is there for a reason, like a really good advert. It's like (make way for philisoophical rant) If you write a beautiful heart felt love letter to your dearest. What you put forward is the pure emotion, you convey what's in your head, heart and soul. You want to present it in a way to really state to the reader, that you've put a lot of time and thought into it....So What do you do ?? You write it on really nice expensive paper. You mark the sides with little hearts etc, you put little kiss marks on the envelope, scent it etc. (well some do) ;) The basics of the letter is the ink on page. The presentation just adds a bit of (insert that fancy french phrase here) Underlines te importance. Well that's what lush production is to me. Not over produced, just produvtion to suit the message. Under production is a way of creating a totally different atmosphere...Kinda like hate mail or something. CupMcMali...this monkey's gone to heaven :freak: P.S Hank The Cave Peanut, It's so good to read that some one else here appreciates Spiritualised. :thu:

[John O. Lennon]

When it sounds like I look...

[Jotown]

[quote]The basics of the letter is the ink on page. The presentation just adds a bit of (insert that fancy french phrase here) Underlines te importance. Well that's what lush production is to me. Not over produced, just produvtion to suit the message. Under production is a way of creating a totally different atmosphere...Kinda like hate mail or something. [/quote]Hate mail!? :confused: :confused: :confused: Or maybe like a note from a loved one just before they die, trapped somewhere. They scratch "I love you" onto the back of a Taco Bell napkin with a broken french fry. Would that convey any feeling to you?

[Salyphus]

Mmmmmmmm french fries [img]http://www.expatica.com/www/upload_pix/fries.gif[/img]

[Jotown]

And broken ones at that.

[Salyphus]

I'll drink to that! [img]http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif[/img] [img]http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif[/img] [img]http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif[/img] [img]http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif[/img] [img]http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif[/img] [img]http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif[/img] [img]http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif[/img] Anyone else thirsty?