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GEM ProMega 3


Bobro

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In another thread I said I'd describe my impressions of the General Music Pro-Mega 3. There have been a few WTF? threads about the board, too.

 

Well...has anybody had a hip uncle with a swingin' pad and a hi-fi in the 70s? It's like that. :D A homogenous blend of classy and sleazy. Put another way, it really makes sense that Rick Wakeman is their demo/endorser guy.

 

Piano people, tell me what you think of this theory:

 

Digital pianos in general do NOT seek to emulate a live grand, rather a grand as it is heard on recordings in popular music. Which is not a bad thing, considering how the instruments are used.

 

The Kawai MP9500 really gave me this impression, serious deja vu. Of course the 9000 must be in many recordings, and maybe it's a kind of moebius-strip phenomenon, I don't know.

 

Anyway, back to the Pro Mega 3. I feel that the Pro Mega IS intended to directly emulate pianos as heard live. Does it succeed...well you must listen for yourself. Personally I liked some of the sounds quite a bit. Unlike the (much cheaper) Kawai ESX-1 for example, I heard no resonance modelling that sounded like tacked-on muddy reverb. The environment was too loud to really check out long tails and fine details, but that's okay because that's also true of where a sound usually winds up in real life. It was very easy to dial in a dark sad sound I like- ploooonggg...Victoria dear, where's the laudanum? Didn't find a snazzy ragtime or Weill type sound right off the bat, but I'm sure they're there.

 

There's an onboard eq (switchable on/off like everything else) but boosting highs made me say, hmmm...but better tested on good phones or real monitors.

 

I had the reverbs and effects like chorus, etc. shut off the whole time, because you can drop a beer can on the floor in a cathedral and it sounds "good" and I didn't have time to waste.

 

The paradigm is a trip- it's like 4 synths layed out in a row which you can switch on and off to layer, each tweakable.Piano, Vintage, Orchestra, Other. This I believe accounts for the 320 note ( :eek: ) polyphony- four times eighty? Forgot to ask.

 

Action is a personal thing, but the action is at least in the upper-class of stage pianos.

 

It can't be judged by playing one of the lower GEM pianos, some of which (forgot the models, sorry) I wouldn't hesitate to call pretty sorry sounding.

 

Hope my mini-review, from the viewpoint of someone with no piano chops at all but perhaps a pretty good ear and perception, at least serves to indicate that the keyboard isn't something to be dismissed out of hand, is worth a test and may even be someone's dream machine.It definitely has a personality, some will probably hate it with a passion and some may love it madly.

 

If you have a lava lamp, a tropical fish tank and a velvet poster of Charles Bronson, don't even bother listening, just buy the board because your decor can't do without it.

 

-CB

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A grand piano modeler must have 3 voices per note, just as a real grand has three strings per note. That accounts for 264 of the available 320 voices, leaving you 76 available voices. How they are assigned I don't know.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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Originally posted by coyote:

A grand piano modeler must have 3 voices per note, just as a real grand has three strings per note. That accounts for 264 of the available 320 voices, leaving you 76 available voices. How they are assigned I don't know.

A grand piano has 3 courses on all 88 notes? I thought it is usually single strings at the very bottom, some double courses and then most with 3. Anyway, you're right that that must account for most of the polyphony.

 

-CB

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If there is indeed only a single string per bass note, I'm overcounting. I don't have a concert grand handy to check. I just remember 3 strings per note when I look into pianos.

 

As for release samples, it's a nonissue on a modeled piano. The model accounts for impact, release, soundboard characteristics, sympathetic string resonance, etc.

 

Originally posted by Rabid:

And don't forget the release samples for each of the 88 notes so popular with GigaStudio sampled pianos now.

Robert

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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As I read through the rather basic info at the GEM site, I don't see any where where it says the acoustic piano is physically modeled. It says that the Rhodes, Clav and Whurly are, but not the piano (unless I'm missing something). I see that the damper and string resonance are modeled, but I don't see where the actual piano is. Also, with regards to polyphony it states that the overall polyphony of the four sections combined is 320. I also question what can be done with 50 MIPS. As a point of reference, each card in the new Protools HD system is 900 MIPS. The Access Virus TDM plugin takes one chip or 100 MIPS for something like 24 notes of polyphony. Seems to me an acoustic piano would be vastly more complex to model than a synth. 50 MIPS is NOT a lot of processing power by today's standards.

 

IMHO, sampling is still valid for a large number of instruments. One of the things that struck me when I first heard the various GigaSampler pianos in which every note was sampled, is how much more realistic they sounded because of this. Every note on an acoustic piano is unique in terms of tuning and tone. That is what give the instrument character. RAM based acoustic piano samples, because RAM limitations, would often stretch one sample across several notes. This tended to make the instrument sound more consistent, but at the same time less realistic. To date, the best physically modelled instruments have been the B3 clones and analog synths. These instruments are very consistent note-to-note. I believe this is one very strong reason why the emulations have been successful.

 

Busch.

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I tried the pro mega 3 at NAMM 2002 .

I thought the keyboard was easy to use . The sampled piano sound and the wurlitzer (rhodes) sounds were fantastic .

 

I am not sure of the price point , however I believe it is in the list price of $2999.99 .

 

The action IMHO was a OK .

It may be someone's dream piano/rhodes keyboard . I think distribution and price point will make it hard for a dealer to get behind this product . Remember that GEM no longer has the PEAVEY dealers to lean on here in USA .

 

BTW .....General Music has Chris Anthony as their product developer and demonstrator . Chris is an amazing player and true asset to General Music .

dano

www.esnips.com/web/SongsfromDanO
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Hmmm.... you may be right :(

 

Originally posted by burningbusch:

As I read through the rather basic info at the GEM site, I don't see any where where it says the acoustic piano is physically modeled. It says that the Rhodes, Clav and Whurly are, but not the piano (unless I'm missing something).

Busch.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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Originally posted by burningbusch:

As I read through the rather basic info at the GEM site, I don't see any where where it says the acoustic piano is physically modeled. It says that the Rhodes, Clav and Whurly are, but not the piano (unless I'm missing something). I see that the damper and string resonance are modeled, but I don't see where the actual piano is. Also, with regards to polyphony it states that the overall polyphony of the four sections combined is 320. I also question what can be done with 50 MIPS. As a point of reference, each card in the new Protools HD system is 900 MIPS. The Access Virus TDM plugin takes one chip or 100 MIPS for something like 24 notes of polyphony. Seems to me an acoustic piano would be vastly more complex to model than a synth. 50 MIPS is NOT a lot of processing power by today's standards.

 

IMHO, sampling is still valid for a large number of instruments. One of the things that struck me when I first heard the various GigaSampler pianos in which every note was sampled, is how much more realistic they sounded because of this. Every note on an acoustic piano is unique in terms of tuning and tone. That is what give the instrument character. RAM based acoustic piano samples, because RAM limitations, would often stretch one sample across several notes. This tended to make the instrument sound more consistent, but at the same time less realistic. To date, the best physically modelled instruments have been the B3 clones and analog synths. These instruments are very consistent note-to-note. I believe this is one very strong reason why the emulations have been successful.

 

Busch.

The term "physically modelled" is kind of a buzzword these days and ad copy tends to be vague. The ProMega piano is sampled. The resonance etc. is what's "modelled".

 

The ProMega is going for about $2,600 at Musicstore Koeln.

 

Soapbox was saying on another thread that he got a new piano for less than a Kurzweil.

 

Judging by the threads here, I'm not the only one who grew up with old uprights in the house. We're screwed forever as far as thinking "practically" about digital pianos, LOL.

 

-CB

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Originally posted by Magpel:

Well, I'm more interested in Geoff's Costco special than in this beast, but, Cameron, that was a wild and funny review nonetheless. Great reading.

Thanks John- it's a wild and funny board! I like it, but it's pretty steep and the hidden costs are dedicated monitors and a tropical fish tank.

 

-CB

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Originally posted by Bobro:

 

Judging by the threads here, I'm not the only one who grew up with old uprights in the house. We're screwed forever as far as thinking "practically" about digital pianos, LOL.

 

-CB

I too grew up playing a real piano, but I guess that hasn't stopped me from thinking "practically" about digital pianos. In the other room I have a very nice Steinway B. If I choose to seriously record this instrument, here's what's involved. I have to call the piano tuner, wait two weeks for him to show up, and fork over $100. Then I have to set up the mics and find the "sweet spot." Personally, I think the "sweet spot" is an engineers' myth. I've found the "OK spot" and the "sounds pretty good spot" but I've never found the spot where the stereo recording sounds remotely close to the sound of the instrument when sitting behind the keyboard. IMHO, the recording process robs so much tonally and spacially, it's not even close. I then have to make a bunch of test recordings to make sure the sweet spot is in fact "sweet", the volume across the instrument is balanced, there are no phase issues, and that the mics aren't picking up some new thud/rattle/squeak, etc. (what is it with mics that they always seem to hone in on what's wrong with the instrument while ignoring what's right with it?). I then have to wait for a time when the house is relatively quiet and record.

 

Or, three weeks earlier when the inspiration was fresh I could have pulled up a GigaSampler piano, recorded it, added some Bosendorfer string resonance from Altiverb, been done in a hour and moved on. In a mix, IMHO, the Giga pianos can sound very good. Good enough.

 

So if the question is which sounds better, sitting behind an acoustic grand or a digital piano, you won't get any argument from me, the differences are massive. But if your intent is recording, then to me the differences are far less significant.

 

Busch.

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Originally posted by burningbusch:

Originally posted by Bobro:

 

Judging by the threads here, I'm not the only one who grew up with old uprights in the house. We're screwed forever as far as thinking "practically" about digital pianos, LOL.

 

-CB

I too grew up playing a real piano, but I guess that hasn't stopped me from thinking "practically" about digital pianos. In the other room I have a very nice Steinway B. If I choose to seriously record this instrument, here's what's involved. I have to call the piano tuner, wait two weeks for him to show up, and fork over $100. Then I have to set up the mics and find the "sweet spot." Personally, I think the "sweet spot" is an engineers' myth. I've found the "OK spot" and the "sounds pretty good spot" but I've never found the spot where the stereo recording sounds remotely close to the sound of the instrument when sitting behind the keyboard. IMHO, the recording process robs so much tonally and spacially, it's not even close. I then have to make a bunch of test recordings to make sure the sweet spot is in fact "sweet", the volume across the instrument is balanced, there are no phase issues, and that the mics aren't picking up some new thud/rattle/squeak, etc. (what is it with mics that they always seem to hone in on what's wrong with the instrument while ignoring what's right with it?). I then have to wait for a time when the house is relatively quiet and record.

 

Or, three weeks earlier when the inspiration was fresh I could have pulled up a GigaSampler piano, recorded it, added some Bosendorfer string resonance from Altiverb, been done in a hour and moved on. In a mix, IMHO, the Giga pianos can sound very good. Good enough.

 

So if the question is which sounds better, sitting behind an acoustic grand or a digital piano, you won't get any argument from me, the differences are massive. But if your intent is recording, then to me the differences are far less significant.

 

Busch.

Put it this way- I know darn well that I will wind up getting a digital piano for the next couple of years at least, and what you're saying are exactly some of the considerations involved. If I still had my old Wurlitzer upright and then got a stage piano, that would be different, but it's either/or at this point. My heart's just not in it. :(

 

-CB

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Drummer friend of mine says to me "What's this thing with you and gear, I think your stuff sounds pretty good" (Alesis QS-8 & Hammond XK-2). I replied, "If someone said to you for practicality purposes you have to use an electronic drum kit, you know, a kit with those plastic frisbee looking things for cymbals & tupperware tops for drums. I know they don't exactly sound & feel like real drums but for convenience sake, you got to use them. They sound & feel pretty good. And by the way next year a more realistic sounding & feeling electronic drum set is coming out next year. That's the situation us keyboard guys are in. All we really want is a real piano & a real Hammond/Leslie. Because of practicality purposes, we have to keep settling for less.

Steve

 

www.seagullphotodesign.com

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  • 5 months later...

"Or, three weeks earlier when the inspiration was fresh I could have pulled up a GigaSampler piano, recorded it, added some Bosendorfer string resonance from Altiverb,...."

 

Busch,

 

Can you elaborate on this? Does this resonance-model come with Altiverb or did you make it yourself?

 

How does it work? I would think that resonance would be the last thing to ask out of a sampled-reverb, since dynamic response is such an important part of a piano's resonance.

 

Any further info / opinion would be most welcome.

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I grew in a house with a spinnet piano. A korg pf-100 would blow it into the weeds. A good piano is nice but there are tons of "not so hot pianos" lurking in American households.

 

Michael

Q:What do you call a truck with nothing in the bed,nothing on the hitch, and room for more than three people in the cab? A:"A car"....
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  • 2 years later...

I pulled this thread up inadvertently when searching for the current promega3 thread, and had a laugh. Hidden costs include a fishtank?

 

For an upcoming concert, I'd like to assign the organ patch to the the auditorium PA (as in real pipes out there on the wall somewhere), and have the harpsichord sounding solely through my own speakers (as in a real harpsichord localized sound). Any thoughts on the best way to do this? Who gets the aux outs and who the main outs? Me or the soundguy?

 

Also, if I assign organ to the aux out, should I still use 2 cables or does one do just as well (since it's a mono instrument, I presume?). Or, here's a thought, should I buy another of those Y cables 1/4 + 1/4, this time ending in that mic type connector..forget what it's called....

 

Any GEM REPS in the house today? Don't go trying to sell me anything now, you hear?

 

thanks.

"........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER
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What is the best sounding Piano ? GEM PROMEGA 3 or the Pianos on the ROLAND FANTOM X8 ?

 

Thanks

Roland Fantom X8 (SRX-04, SRX-07, SRX-11, SRX-12) - Yamaha Motif ES7 - Kawai MP11 - Hammond XK-1C - Korg TR Rack - Korg SG Rack - Quiklok Z72 - Quiklok SL930 - Electrovoice SXA360's

 

 

 

 

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Originally posted by BonGioviPlayer:

What is the best sounding Piano ? GEM PROMEGA 3 or the Pianos on the ROLAND FANTOM X8 ?

 

Thanks

That's my kind of quesiton. :thu::D

I just found out recently that the honkey piano on the promega is actually Chris Anthony's grandma's. It doesn't get much better than that.

"........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER
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Originally posted by coyote:

A grand piano modeler must have 3 voices per note, just as a real grand has three strings per note. That accounts for 264 of the available 320 voices, leaving you 76 available voices. How they are assigned I don't know.

The additional 76 voices only sound when the keyboard is transposed; it simulates the buzzing of the capo on a real piano.

Botch

"Eccentric language often is symptomatic of peculiar thinking" - George Will

www.puddlestone.net

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Hi,

 

Dave McMahan here from Generalmusic USA. :wave: I hope no one minds me jumping in to this.

 

OK, here we go;

 

coyote wrote;

A grand piano modeler must have 3 voices per note, just as a real grand has three strings per note. That accounts for 264 of the available 320 voices, leaving you 76 available voices. How they are assigned I don't know.
Bobro wrote;

A grand piano has 3 courses on all 88 notes? I thought it is usually single strings at the very bottom, some double courses and then most with 3. Anyway, you're right that that must account for most of the polyphony.
The Promega 3 is 320 voice polyphony. If only one section is active i.e. Piano, then the piano sound will have all 320 voices available. If two sections are active, then 160 voices are available since each section is using a voice. There are a total of four sound sections that can be activated simultaneously. In a nut shell, the Promega 3 has PLENTY of polyphony. :)

 

Rabid wrote;

And don't forget the release samples for each of the 88 notes so popular with GigaStudio sampled pianos now.
As coyote pointed out:
As for release samples, it's a nonissue on a modeled piano. The model accounts for impact, release, soundboard characteristics, sympathetic string resonance, etc.
Bobro also wrote;

The term "physically modelled" is kind of a buzzword these days and ad copy tends to be vague. The ProMega piano is sampled. The resonance etc. is what's "modelled".
burningbusch wrote;

I don't see any where where it says the acoustic piano is physically modeled. It says that the Rhodes, Clav and Whurly are, but not the piano (unless I'm missing something).
Good point and sorry for the vagueness in description. As you mentioned, the Rhodes, Clavinet and Wurlitzer sounds are entirely modeled. The acoustic pianos are a bit different. The initial harmonic content of the acoustic piano sounds are derived through normal sampling techniques. These samples are used by the various computer models as a reference point. Everything else to do with the acoustic pianos is coming from the physical models.

 

burningbusch also wrote;

I also question what can be done with 50 MIPS.
The Promega 3 utilizes five DRAKE processors. The DRAKE (DSP Risk-based Advanced Keyboard Engine) was designed from the ground up to be a digital keyboard processor. It is extremely powerful and a very unique design. Each processor is capable of 50 MIPS. When multiple DRAKES are in use, they function as one individual processor. Kind of like the Borg for you Star Trek TNG fans. :thu:

 

Dan O wrote;

I think distribution and price point will make it hard for a dealer to get behind this product. Remember that GEM no longer has the PEAVEY dealers to lean on here in USA .
I agree the Promega 3 is on the higher end of the price scale. But there is a lot of expensive technology inside that makes it what it is. The added realism is something that some people either want, need or appreciate, or they dont. To each his own. There are certainly gigs out there that wont benefit by what the Promega 3 offers. But thankfully, there are other gigs where it can make a real difference.

 

In reference to dealers getting behind the product, there are those who are definitely behind the Promega 3 and especially our home digital pianos that have inherited the DRAKE processor and hence the added benefits of the Promega system.

 

As for Peavey, (and I have respect for the company Hartley has built) that turned out to be a mistake. Selling high-tech digital keyboards is a lot different than selling guitars, strings, drums, mic cables, etc. Just to be clear, GEM didnt lean on Peavey dealers, Peavey was the US distributor for GEM pro keyboards and handled there own business with no real involvement by the manufacturer.

 

I am extremely happy that we (GEM USA) are handling everything in the US ourselves with no 3rd party involvement. You can imagine the amount clean-up that we have been doing due to prior situations, but things are now sparkling clean for the most part and we are doing quite well.

 

Dan O also wrote;

BTW .....General Music has Chris Anthony as their product developer and demonstrator . Chris is an amazing player and true asset to General Music .
Youve got that right! Chris is a great player, arranger, etc. and a very nice fellow.

 

felix wrote;

Too bad they gave this thing such an awful name.
BTW, hows Oscar doin? ;) Or is the name felix a reference to the old cartoon Felix the Cat? If so, I applaud you.

 

b_3guy wrote;

All we really want is a real piano & a real Hammond/Leslie. Because of practicality purposes, we have to keep settling for less.
Aint it the truth!

 

tenthplanet wrote;

I grew in a house with a spinnet piano. A korg pf-100 would blow it into the weeds. A good piano is nice but there are tons of "not so hot pianos" lurking in American households.
I used to get so frustrated when I used to teach piano. Parents would come in saying I just bought our son/daughter a piano. We got a great deal on it. It was in this old ladys home for the last 50 years and never got played so its in great shape. You know, it is one of those real tall pianos. We only paid $100.00. Then the kid would give up after a while because he/she decided they were just no good at learning piano because it sounded so bad. ?

 

gangsu wrote;

For an upcoming concert, I'd like to assign the organ patch to the auditorium PA (as in real pipes out there on the wall somewhere), and have the harpsichord sounding solely through my own speakers (as in a real harpsichord localized sound). Any thoughts on the best way to do this? Who gets the aux outs and who the main outs? Me or the soundguy?
Send the organ out through AUX as mono. This way you will have the onboard EQ to shape the sound of the Harpsichord as you see (or hear) fit.

 

BonGioviPlayer wrote;

What is the best sounding Piano ? GEM PROMEGA 3 or the Pianos on the ROLAND FANTOM X8 ?
I probably shouldnt be the one to answer this one. But what the heck. They both sound good. They also both sound different from each other. At the risk of stepping dangerously close to the HYPE ZONE, the Promega 3 includes several types of acoustic pianos. There is the Steinway 9, Fazioli 106, an old clunky upright piano, a CP70, and a honky tonk upright. These are all totally individual sounds. The Steinway and Fazioli are offered in true stereo versions as well as mono versions. Using the 8 band on-board EQ and the LPF, there is a lot of versatility to be had.

 

If I missed anything, please let me know.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave McMahan

Product Manager

Generalmusic USA

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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Hi Dave McMahan

do you or anybody have a demo of the piano sounds on the GEM PROMEGA 3 mixed with strings ?

i have heard sounds on the GEM website, but would love to hear piano with Strings which i use a lot in my Bon Jovi Tribute band, i now wish i would have bought the ROLAND FANTOM XR Rack AND the GEM ProMega3 ! i could have had the best of both worlds ! :(

 

email me at bongioviwayne@aol.com

 

www.wayneharris.co.uk

 

www.bongiovi.co.uk

Roland Fantom X8 (SRX-04, SRX-07, SRX-11, SRX-12) - Yamaha Motif ES7 - Kawai MP11 - Hammond XK-1C - Korg TR Rack - Korg SG Rack - Quiklok Z72 - Quiklok SL930 - Electrovoice SXA360's

 

 

 

 

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Originally posted by BonGioviPlayer:

Hi Dave McMahan

do you or anybody have a demo of the piano sounds on the GEM PROMEGA 3 mixed with strings ?

i have heard sounds on the GEM website, but would love to hear piano with Strings which i use a lot in my Bon Jovi Tribute band, i now wish i would have bought the ROLAND FANTOM XR Rack AND the GEM ProMega3 ! i could have had the best of both worlds ! :(

 

email me at bongioviwayne@aol.com

 

www.wayneharris.co.uk

 

www.bongiovi.co.uk

Hi,

 

I don't have anything right at the moment. When I get some time I could certainly record something for you and give you a link. It will take me some time to get that done however. Here is a thought, if you send me a MIDI file of a piano part that you recorded, I will play that into the Promega 3 and layer various string sounds and record the result for you.

 

You may also want to get in touch with Synergy Distribution in the UK as they are the GEM distributors in your part of the world. I believe there is a fellow by the name of Richard that is a product specialist for Synergy that may have something he can get to you.

 

Best regards and thanks for your interest,

 

Dave

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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Originally posted by DaveMcM:

Dave McMahan here from Generalmusic USA. I hope no one minds me jumping in to this.

Hello! That's an epic post! I didn't mean to hand you a cut and paste nightmare. Wow, thanks for your time, as always. It's actually really fun to see the instrument at a glance like this.

 

So, mono out, one simple patch cord. Very good.

 

Botch. Are ya lost? I never expected to see you wandering around out here. Fire off a shot, they'll find you. :D just kidding of course. Come back and visit anytime.

"........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER
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Originally posted by capnzoot:

Pardon me for, well, what I'm known for which is being a bullshit filter. What Dave says is spot on, however editing and posting against conjecture is a cut & paste nightmare,

Thanks capnzoot. :thu: I had fun with the cut & paste. :D

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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Capnzoot.

At the risk of sounding like a complete flake: I know what you mean about getting lost in piano world. I start off with great intentions of practicing and end up somewhere else. That fazioli takes you off the page, no doubt about it.

 

Originally posted by capnzoot:

And for me, to put things in proper perspective, all instruments serve a function, but this thing about whether it will service the gig is not nearly as import as whether or not it will serve you as a musician on the purest level.

:thu:
"........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER
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Hi Dave McM,

 

I'd like to purchase the volume pedal #970107. The Oakville dealer doesn't stock it, so I'm wondering if you could put me in touch with the closest US dealer who does.

 

I'd like to have it by Dec 11. Impossible probably, but worth a try!

 

thanks, Sue

"........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER
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