My mixes suck

[Magpel]

And I'm frustrated. The high end *always* sounds shrill and brittle. The Mids and lows *always* sound like a clot of phlegm lodged in what would be my tune, always muddy and with irritating resonances.

 

If I approach these problems with EQ plugins, I almost always neuter the recording and end with something tame, flat, and undynamic.

 

The roots of the problem: bad sound sources to begin with, haphazard arrangement that creates mixing problems later, a poor monitoring situation that never gives me an accurate reproduction of bass elements, and, last and least, my gear generally.

 

In spite of this self-flagellation, I do consider myself a good and original musician/composer. I write what I want to hear, you know? My inability to arrive at even *average* quality productions is killing me.

[Magpel]

I missed the biggest factor of all in my discontent:

 

No collaborators. A stifling isolation and musical self-reliance. Trying to be writer/performer/engineer and short shrifting all three. I used to have bands and the like (and there are an awful lot of attendant problems and imperfections in those arrangements too). Right now, I'm dying for some simpatico musical relationships.

[lovenara]

Magpel you mind to discuss it with foreigner?

maybe i can be of any help

i know how frustrated it is to master all areas of musicmaking

cheers

istyle

[Rod S]

Hey John-

 

I feel for you. I'm undergoing the same battle. Actually, I'm undergoing a new battle, since I can't get audio and midi to synch in my laptop (subject for another email)

 

My biggest exasperation is my monitor situation. I just can't get them to sound good (RA100 + monitor 1's). My setup is set up in a temporary location, and I don't have a lot of space. I'm wondering if something actually went bad or the room I'm is that bad (a possibility) plus poor positioning.

 

I'm also trying to find time to write some stuff with my brother, but he's been busy as hell. Still trying to meet some people around here to work with.

 

However, I am making huge strides as far as working more organized. I got sounddiver up and running... works like a charm. I'm currently organizing my patch collection, and being more organized about documenting what I'm doing as I'm writing.

 

I think my gear is generally not too bad, and I kind of stuck with what I have right now due to prices of stuff around here

[Magpel]

I posted this both to vent and to issue an open bitch inivitation (I don't care to think about other interpretations of that phrase). Please follow my lead if you are so inclined!

[Slowly]

Originally posted by Magpel:

And I'm frustrated. The high end *always* sounds shrill and brittle. The Mids and lows *always* sound like a clot of phlegm lodged in what would be my tune, always muddy and with irritating resonances.

 

If I approach these problems with EQ plugins, I almost always neuter the recording and end with something tame, flat, and undynamic.

 

The roots of the problem: bad sound sources to begin with, haphazard arrangement that creates mixing problems later, a poor monitoring situation that never gives me an accurate reproduction of bass elements, and, last and least, my gear generally.

 

In spite of this self-flagellation, I do consider myself a good and original musician/composer. I write what I want to hear, you know? My inability to arrive at even *average* quality productions is killing me.

 

 

MusiciansFriend has free classes, maybe you can get some pointers there. Casey

[Magpel]

Casey, thanks for the tip. I have followed tutorials, absorbed and tried endless tips and tricks from the boards. I sweep EQs to find the offending frequencies. Etcetera. I guess the root of my discontent is the one-man band syndrome, and that I don't really dig mixing and engineering--it's not bad; it's more fun than fishing or cleaning the car. But it's certainly not my passion or forte. I'm a tune writer, a word writer, but I've never been strong on the sound-shaper front. I was never a fetishistic guitarist who could hear the difference between Everyreadys and Druacells in my stomp boxes... In the 4 track days, there wasn't much I *could* do. Now with the DAW, the 30+ tracks, the copious plugins, the microscopic editing, the automated mixing, the Z1, finishing a song seems to take me months. Sometimes I'll listen to one of my pieces and say, yeah, it sounds immeasurably better than anything I ever did on the 4-track. But...

 

In short, I need qualified collaborators, maybe mentors. Well, I already have one of those in my brother, who is an excellent engineer, arranger, player. True he lives a thousand miles away, and even more true, we have some major aesthetic differences, but he can be a big help depending on what it is I need to know.

 

I feel the mix quality/sound quality issue is a real stumbling block for me. I do a modicum of "professional" work, mostly composition for theater and some multimedia, mid-level corporate video stuff. I'd love to more of this but am not comfortable with the overall sound quality of my stuff. This has been a deterrent to a more aggressive bid for work in this area. In truth, no client has ever complained about the quality of my stuff. But if pressed, if A-B'd, I'm sure they could tell the difference.

 

Ah, anyway, I appreciate your ears. I will keep Plugging away.

 

Thanks,

John

[Dan South]

Hey John,

 

I, too, feel your pain. Here's a suggestion. Have one of your songs mixed by a pro engineer - either at your place or at theirs - with the understanding that you want him/her to explain EVERYTHING that he/she is doing and why. If they won't go for that deal, look for someone else. Ideally, this should be someone who LIKES to talk about mixing. Pay them by the hour so they don't feel shortchanged.

 

My theory has always been that human beings were engineered to learn from other human beings. Books are great catalogs of information. Videos and other multimedia training are good, too, but there's NOTHING like spending a little time with an expert to advance your knowledge base. Listen to every little thing he says, his choice of words. Everthing is important, because you want to pick up his techniques AND his mixing mindset.

 

Good luck!!!

[fv_dup1]

Hi,

 

That's a pretty good suggestion Dan. I'll only throw in that you should also be prepared to spend a little more than the regular hourly rate. You are not just paying for their time and services. You are paying for schooling at the same time.

 

I'm not saying that this is how it will be, I just wouldn't freak out if that's what happens. You may find someone who is willing to do it just for their regular hourly rate anyhow so it's best to shop around (as with anything).

 

The other thing that I'll mention to is to choose a budget of what you're willing to spend on having the song mixed as well as learning. It'll help you shop. An engineer with good credits will cost considerably more than someone who's been engineering for 15 years but has only done local demos (there may be a reason for that too).

 

The more you can afford, probably the more that you'll learn. Be upfront and tell the person what you're looking for exactly.

 

HTH,

fv

[KTempo]

Magpel,

 

I totally understand and can relate. I wanted to finally add some effects to my mix. Man, why did I even bother!! When I just did a straight burn from my synth, it sounded okay. When I converted the mix to MP3 from the CD (so I can finally put some songs on MP3.com), it sounds bland! I added reverb and EQ'd it and re-recorded it and re-edited it... Now it sound kinda muddy to me. I should've left well enough alone. But NOOoooo!! I let my mom take a listen and she said it sounds fine to her ears. Be it as it may. I will upload my first song by next weekend (or whenever MP3 approves it--artist status says incomplete). I will go to MusiciansFriend's website and take a look at their tips/lessons though.

[CoolColJ]

You just need to run the whole, mix through a Fairchild or a Manley Massive Passive EQ

[Llarion]

I'm no pro, but I think I come up with decent end product... Where can we hear an example of what you call bad mixing? I'd be happy to offer whatever humble advice that I can... There's a slew of great ears on this forum, and I'm sure I'm not the only one willing to help...

 

The ArtistLaunch board has several hot knob twiddlers, (Look up MA Griffin) and so does another artist chitchat board that is my online home base, www.artistarea.com. If you stop in there, introduce yourself, and tell 'em I sent ya; Steve LeBlanc hangs there too. (be careful wading through all the politics and religion threads, it can get dicey in there, we've all known each other a long time... ) Also, www.recording.org has some brilliant people on their forums, I know Stephen Paul hangs (or did hang) there... (I haven't been there in awhile.)

 

Anyhow, post an example, let's pick it apart, maybe we can collectively give you some insight!

[Magpel]

Thanks, Dan, Kt, Fv, Phil, Cool.

 

I'm game for some critique. There's a good specimen for analysis on my mp3 site. A good choice because I didn't write it. My friend Dr. Steve did. He writes boatloads of very simple rock and folky tunes and every year or so I help him record one of his songs. The one on the site is called Mess. It's the 2nd of two tunes I have up there right now.

 

mp3 page

 

He sang the lead, I arranged it and played everything else. It's not typical of my work at all--I tend to go for much more involved and quirky stuff, the little progger in me that never died even decades after I sorta abandoned prog. But Mess is certainly a mix I worked really hard on, and all of my self-perceived flaws are in evidence there. Specifically my inability to achieve separation and distinctness of tracks.

 

The guitars and bass are "real," every thing else is synths and samples. Well, except the vox, of course.

 

So, TIA if you've got a minute to listen and respond.

 

John,

PS: sorry for breaking protocol and posting this link on a thread other than Let's Hear It, but it was solicitied...

[Llarion]

Well, first off, this is NOT bad... it is slightly uneven, but it doesn't even approach BAD. Just a few quick notes off the op of my head:

 

* Snare is a little hot, about 1-1.5db, either pull the level back ot drop the midrange on it a little, the 800Hz-1.5KHz area, just a teeny bit

*The whole recording is a little short on upper mids, sounds like a little more edge in the 5-6KHz range might brighten without it getting edgy.

*Lead vox are a little hot too... you've got that placed well relative to the snare, but they both sit over the top of everthing else as a result.

*I'm a drummer, so I'm a litle biased, but I'd give the kick a little more presence too.

 

It's really very close. I'm gonna remaster the end product, I obviously can't do anything to levels, but let's see if some EQ and compression and enveloping can tighten it up. I'll post it when I'm done...

[lovenara]

i agree with Phil

everything is not cluttered or muddy

maybe they aren't EQed at the right frequency

and also the pan positions of each don'thold them together as a band

maybe you tell more specifis details about your process

ever go to read POINT TO POINT column at

www.prorec.com?

Rip is explaining every steps of his mixing

just my 2cents

istyle

[Llarion]

Okay, I remastered it, it is a little smoother and punchier...

 

www.stampabay.com/mess.mp3

 

If you like it, feel free to use it...

[Magpel]

Phil, boy, just listening and critiquing is a great service. But to spend some of your music making time helping someone else, well, that's really darn generous of you. I'm tankful. I haven't actually been able to download it yet--may not till I'm at work on Monday, but I just wanted to express my appreciation.

 

John

[Llarion]

Aww shucks, twern't nuthin... I know that when I'm at a frustration point and someone stops to help for a seoncd, it really gets me back on track. Least I could do.

 

Here is what I did:

 

1) Applied a light multiband compressor (Waves C4 Opto Mastering setting)

2) Applied a VERY slight reverb over the top of everything (Waves Rverb Studio A, 9% mix) and a warm plate to the very end to get some extension and depth (Waves Rverb Warm Plate, 30% mix)

3) Hand enveloped a couple dozen or so transients to smooth them off

4) EQ, boosted 62HZ and 5KHz, cut 1KHz (Waves 10 band parametric)

5) normalized

6) added 1 second of silence to the start and chopped all but 1 second off the end.

7) reconverted to MP3.

[Dan South]

John,

 

The song AND the mix kick a$$! Nice work. I'm totally impressed.

 

I see very little that could be improved here, but here's are two suggestions aside from what Phil mentioned.

 

First, the ensemble vocal at the end it too low. I'd bring it up and hit it hard with a limited to put it in the listener's face. A dash of chorus might make that part sound "bigger".

 

My other suggestion is harder to describe, but I'd like to hear a more even ambience between the vocal and the instruments. A touch more reverb on the (differently EQ'd) snare will help. Another touch on the organ would be nice, but be careful not to overdo it. The problem is that the vocal sounds farther away than the instruments in some cases, because the vocal has more spatial processing on it (delay, reverb). If you can make the "band" sound a little "bigger", it will mesh more tightly.

 

These are very MINOR issues, though. You've done a great job with this mix.

[Magpel]

Phil, your re-mastering job sounds great--definitely brighter and more open sounding. Thanks for the hands-on instruction.

 

Dan, thanks for the critique and the kind words.