I hate being the sales police!

[Dave Bryce]

...sigh...

 

Over the past month, I have had to make no less than five requests of people who are employees or representatives of MI manufacturers or music retailers that they:

 

A) identify themselves as such, and

B) try not to use this forum to sell things to people.

 

I have also done my best to keep the forum free of individuals who would like to use it to sell gear privately. This site has a page for classifieds.

 

As many of you know, I myself work for a company that sells products. I do my absolute best not to make that an issue unless someone asks me a direct question relating to my products. I do, in fact, use this forum to advertise, but I do so with a banner ad at the top of the page. I pay for that ad. Admittedly, it's a bit easier for me not to talk about my products here because I do not represent a keyboard manufacturer or sales organization.

 

This policy was established about a year ago. We took a vote; and, if I remember correctly, it was the overwhelming preference of the members of this forum to try and keep this a "sell-free" zone.

 

I have done my best to enforce that policy - we have even had one person removed from the forums because he would not stop talking about his products. We have actually lost a few members because they did not like the fact that I would not let them sell here.

 

As a rule, the folks who works for MI manufacturers and retailers who post here have been pretty good about it. Also, as a rule, I have tried to keep my requests that people not use the forum as a sales tool to private posts. If you see me publicly requesting that someone ID themselves, it is because I have probably already requested that they stop doing it at least once privately.

 

I actually believe that it adds value to the forum to have MI professionals here. I freely admit that I have tried to cut a bit of slack to the members of the forum that post here as actual end-users (Mike Martin and Jeff Klopmeyer come to mind) because they are established members of this community. They post here relatively often about subjects that do not have anything to do with their products, and so when they do occasionally slip in a bit of a plug for their stuff, I have not busted them. Usually, it's actually pretty appropriate when they do...other MI pros who post here leave their pro caps at the door. Example - how many of you know that steadyb is an employee of Emagic? He never talks about it here...I guess that he prefers to keep this a place where he can just be a keyboard player.

 

However, we have had a few people who are relative newcomers to our forum just start right in talking about their products. I have always allowed for the possibility that this is because they just do not understand how things work here, and have always contacted them privately before saying anything publicly. While I welcome their presence and do not wish for them to leave, I have requested that they clearly identify themsleves as being an MI professional, and I have also requested that they restrict talking about their products to answering direct questions about them. This is the policy that I myself observe, and I do not feel that it is unreasonable of me to ask the same of others.

 

However, I am getting tired of being the police. I do not like to bust people. It makes me feel like an asshole, and I don't like it. At all.

 

I am therefore requesting two things:

 

1) Please use this thread to voice your opinion about whether you would like to see this policy continue to be enforced. As I have said before, this is OUR forum, not my forum. If you guys don't mind having products pitched to you here, say so and I'll let it go. If, on the other hand, you'd rather keep this forum a "sell-free" zone, I'd like to hear that as well.

 

2) If it turns out that the community prefers not to have people try and sell them things, please take the initiative. When you see someone who is trying to sell you something, please ask them nicely to stop.

 

So...in the immortal words of David Frangioni:

What do YOU think?

 

dB

[nursers]

I think the policy is valid and should be maintained. Also understand the frustration you must feel having to be the 'bad guy'.

 

Speaking of frustration, I know of a good product that helps... then again maybe not

 

David

[Slowly]

I`m starting a business myself in the MI. I`ve often wished I could get a mailing list like the keyboard corner. My products will be for keyboardist and keyboardist only. So you see why this would be perfect. But, it`s not like that and that`s okay. But I wouldn`t mind a one day every three month thing where everybody could post an ad. One day only. Because I would rather buy from my friends here then from anywhere else. But the ads should be severely limited to a title and just a link in the main body. Casey`s keyboard corner stands, click link. One line, one link, one day. Period. Casey. P.S. And I don`t sell stands.

 

And also, these ads must be within a thread started my the moderator. Nothing outside. That way, if you don`t want to see the ads, you don`t have too.

 

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: kcbass ]

[joegerardi]

Dave:

Concur. I don't want this to turn into a sales forum. Though it would be great if a lot of MI people would come here, and even greater if they could and would respond to product questions, that is a response not an initation of a sales plug.

 

Jeff, Mike, et al, are always willing to offer their opinions without actually trying to sell us stuff. I've read both of them praising their competition's products when they feel it's warranted.

 

I can feel for you, 'cause I do on other forums what you do here. I think you do a fabulous job, and I hope it continues in the same vein that we have. Only thing I an think to add is:

 

Sucks to be you!

 

"Badges? We don' need no steenkin' badges!

[cg1155]

I too support this policy since forums that allow advertising are constantly getting spammed with ads. Perhaps if these individuals were allowed to post one message with their company product and a link only that would be enough, and no other advertising.

 

-Casey

[sweibel]

I actually don't mind people working for specific companies to say "gently push" their products on these forums. Just go to Frangioni's forum and you can read detailed info about upgrading your Apogee converters from Max who works for Apogee. Even though I don't have an Apogee converter, I'm interested in what Max has to say (and I'm sure that Max thinks Apogee are really really good converters). It would be good if they'd readily identify themselves as employees of a company, but otherwise I don't mind if people tell me that I should buy their products. I'll decide what I get (or my wallet will).

I'm often surprised to see how often and how detailed guys from certain companies respond to questions or voice their opinion. Do they do that while at work? Or when they're at home? I'm not the world's busiest person but I really don't have the time to write long, detailed posts, even if I wanted to. Reading new posts takes up most of my time.

My 2 cents...

[R_dup1]

Hey Dave,

 

I personally would welcome the MI folks for discussion purposes. I don't think there should be advertising as far as saying "Buy My Stuff Cause It's Great" in the form of a traditional banner type ad, but I would welcome explanations about products and intelligent comments in response to posts from other people. Why not hear what the actual manufacturer rep has to say about which is better between a widget 2000 and a whatzit 900Pro? Presumably these people know a helluva lot more about their gear than anybody else.

 

For example, Dave's comments about Andromeda are fairly knowledgeable as he is its papa. I like that kind of inside info. If someone asks about what are great monitors, I'd love to see the debate include Dave on ADAM's and other manufacturers on their stuff. To me, this just helps inform and if one mfg misrepresents, then others and other forum members can call them on it. Same thing with sample CD's and other such. I would welcome in depth descriptions about why one company's sample library fits a different niche than something that seems to be similar, etc., etc.

 

In my eyes, as long as it's not just some bull$#!% ad from a music store but is actually an announcement or informative analysis or response or provocative discussion by a seller, that's cool with me. I wouldn't want straight ads, ads by retailers or private sales of equipment, but I think getting the manufacturers involved would help the forum, differentiate it from all the others and liven it up at the same time.

 

Why not breathe some life and uniqueness into this forum and let the manufacturers speak out!?

 

What do you think Dave? Others?

 

PS - This would benefit everyone, because I really learned a lot about monitors and ended up placing an order with Dave for a pair of ADAMs as a result of the monitor discussion. It really helped me improve my studio.

[Jazzman]

Dave I also agree, these forums need to be kept for information exchanges only.

 

Now if the main EQ page had a yellow pages section for ads of the listed people here so be it, and maybe charge a small fee to each person wanting to post their ad just like the big guys do, but maybe smaller if they participate in helping others, or by the number of posts that they have under their belt, a sliding scale of some sorts. It would tend to get away from spam to the new guys trying to sell stuff on the related threads! They could have a star by their name to show that they have goods to sell to the folks on the forum and that they are in good standing with you.

 

All and all stay away from forum selling, it detracts from the main purpose of the professional information exchanges, even if it's for one day a month. I'm also not against these folks meaning well, but there needs to be some restraint.

 

Sorry folks but this is MHO.

 

Ps, Dave, put a star by your name

 

Jazzman

 

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Jazzman ]

[Geosync]

Many pardons for upsetting the group. I have changed my signature to reflect my connection with Kurzweil AND GEOSYNC Music. (Kurzweil is a client)

 

I entered this forum at someone else's request, I did not know the protocol.

 

Please Excuse.

[K.C.]

I agreed with the "sell-free" zone .. but frankly the info from those MI people are really beneficial ... thanks to you guys

[Tedster]

Hey, I wonder if all of us posters could get SPONSORS!!! Yeah, baby, how about that?

 

"This Tedster post is being brought to you by Miss Cleo's psychic music hotline...talk to Hendrix for only $3.99 per minute"...

[Dan O]

Hello everyone ,

I entered into this forum without knowing what all the rules or concerns of the moderator were .

I have made a few mistakes . I gave opinions about a product and was asked to identify the fact that I worked for that company .

No one ,as far as I can tell is holding up " For sale signs " in this forum . I have never received private email saying "hey , buy this" . I have not emailed anyone privately to say go " go buy this etc..." or "buy ketron because I say so " .

Before registering , is there a question that says " do you work for a manufacturer ? " The moderator has the ability to delete anything that he or she thinks is "SELLING" . That's OK with me . dano/ketronguy

 

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: dano ]

[Dave Bryce]

Thanks for the responses so far.

 

I just wanna take a minute to say that I don't think that anyone who was not aware of the forum's policy did anything wrong...Geo, Dano - we're cool...

 

This post was just mainly to make sure how others felt, and to basically check and see where we ALL are on out position on this. I am NOT attacking anyone at all...like I said - I just hate feeling like the heavy, and I wanted to talk to you guys about it.

 

Quick additional note - while I appreciate the props, brother R - I do need to say that I am just one of a bunch of folks who contributed to the silver beast known as Andromeda. I am only one of her papas...

 

...I did name her, though...

 

dB

[Squids]

Well, coming from a manufacturer's point of view and a keyboardist as well I think that there is a fine line. When it's blatant spam then it's just annoying. But, if it is relevant information and educational about gear then... that's what we all like to talk about (besides football apparently... I put my vote in for the Dolphins anyway...although we'll see if they can hang on). I think it's great that D.B. asks you what you want for this forum and I tend to agree with a lot of you- especially "R"- who explained it how I would say it probably. People who make products tend to be really knowledgeable about them, naturally. Since this knowledge is of value to keyboardists then I would think it would be very beneficial to the readers of this forum for them to be around. When someone from a company takes the time to speak to others about the things they know best it helps the customer know more than they would if they went to the corner music store and got wrong answers and bad suggestions from the kid who has only worked there for a month and will quit next month.

 

I personally think, even though you'll think I am biased perhaps, that it's okay for company reps to talk about their products if they have something interesting to say that is more than just spamming "our product is the best". Okay, they should explain why it is then? Bryce explained to me what makes the ADAM speakers so good and I was glad to know. He did me a service by telling me a bit about them. I think if you are doing a good service and really speaking with people then how harmful can that be? If it was just lazy spam advertising then readers would naturally complain. But, who complains about reading useful information?

 

I just think that for the reader's benefit you might be better off with a loose policy regarding this as I have seen on some other forums. People will complain if it is irrelevant or pestering. But, if you want knowledgeable MI crowd to hang here and contribute to good debates and discussions then it's better not to be too strict on this one.

[R_dup1]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Quick additional note - while I appreciate the props, brother R - I do need to say that I am just one of a bunch of folks who contributed to the silver beast known as Andromeda. I am only one of her papas...

 

...I did name her, though...

 

dB

 

Well, I originally wrote "one of her papas" but that made her sound kind of impure or something, so I opted for one. Kudos to all the other papas too though. I didn't mean to slight the whole design team.

[Pat Azzarello]

I'm with Dave.

 

• 
   
  
• Don't sell. Use the classifieds.
  
• If someone asks for help (or you think they need help), PLEASE give your opinion and any information you may think is useful. But please identify the fact that you have (or had) an association with a company or product. That association could lend weight or bias to your opinion and members should be able to take that into account.
  
• If you want someones opinion, especially if it is to make product better, state that fact. I don't mind helping people develop better products, but I also want the chance to ignore the post if I don't have time or it conflicts with something I'm working on.
  
• Assume the best: That we're all here to help.
  
• Please read posts carefully.
  
• If your kidding, be sure to use the emoticons (Graemlins) so people know it.
   
  

[Dave Bryce]

People who make products tend to be really knowledgeable about them, naturally. Since this knowledge is of value to keyboardists then I would think it would be very beneficial to the readers of this forum for them to be around. When someone from a company takes the time to speak to others about the things they know best it helps the customer know more than they would if they went to the corner music store and got wrong answers and bad suggestions from the kid who has only worked there for a month and will quit next month.

 

I agree fully. As I have said all along, I love that MI pros hang out here. It totally adds value to the forum. I wish more of them did. Personally, I think that the ones who don't do themselves a disservice. If you wanna be in touch with the people who are buying your products, this is about the best place to do that.

 

In that respect, it is a two way street. Not only do the people who post here benefit from the experience and insights of the pros, but the pros benefit by having a place to get feedback from the very people whom they wish to reach. Both parties benefit.

 

I personally think, even though you'll think I am biased perhaps, that it's okay for company reps to talk about their products if they have something interesting to say that is more than just spamming "our product is the best".

 

I agree. I think it's important that they identify themselves, and I also kinda think that they should not push their products when not requested to do so. I would think that it's pretty clear that someone who works for a company will naturally think very highly of their own products - I don't think that they need to tell us that. If it's a matter of factual clarification, that's one thing (i.e. correcting someone who is speading misinformation about a product, or answering a specific question about a product); however, if someone asks what workstation is best, I don't think someone from Korg needs to answer that the Triton is - I'd think it's obvious that they'd feel that way.

 

Okay, they should explain why it is then? Bryce explained to me what makes the ADAM speakers so good and I was glad to know. He did me a service by telling me a bit about them.

 

It should be pointed out that this occured when Dave and I were talking on the phone. It should also be pointed out that Dave and I have known each other for a while...

 

I think if you are doing a good service and really speaking with people then how harmful can that be? If it was just lazy spam advertising then readers would naturally complain. But, who complains about reading useful information?

 

Agreed.

 

I just think that for the reader's benefit you might be better off with a loose policy regarding this as I have seen on some other forums. People will complain if it is irrelevant or pestering. But, if you want knowledgeable MI crowd to hang here and contribute to good debates and discussions then it's better not to be too strict on this one.

 

It seems to me that the folks who enjoy hanging out here will continue to hang out here, as long as it remains an enjoyable place to do so. While I am sure that most folks appreciate having MI pros here, I don't think it's the main attraction - I think that having a place where they can talk to their fellow keyboard lovers is much more important.

 

There are actually some pretty knowledgeable folks who aren't MI pros here too, y'know...

 

dB

[Dan South]

I appreciate the fact that folks like Jeff and Mike and Nika (and Dave) can give us the inside scoop on products, promotions, upgrades, etc. But I DON'T want to see any spam here. I get enough spam at my email account to keep me QUITE busy.

 

So my vote is to restrict the MI talk to ON TOPIC INFORMATION. If you want to sell something lease the banner or post a classified. Thx!

 

Hey steadyb - what do you do at Emagic?

[soapbox]

Dave, IMHO, you have a good idea of what is appropriate and of what we want. I like the way you've been running things here. I'm sorry you feel like the heavy, and I'll keep you're request for help in mind to politely let MI reps know what's what when I see something that seems inappropriate.

 

Perhaps you should create a thread like the Let\'s hear it!!! one, in which MI reps can post their press releases. That way, we have someplace that we can politely direct people to; and those that are interested can read what they have to say. I believe that Casey made a similar suggestion.

 

...in the immortal words of David Frangioni:

What do YOU think?

[tenthplanet]

Let's leave the policy as it is, I think it works well.

Michael

[Bucktunes]

I say it ain't broke, let's don't fix it! There are plenty of outlets for people to sell stuff. This doesn't need to be one of them.

 

Especially annoying are the postings that announce what appears to be an interesting subject, only to open it up and find that it's just thinly disguised spam.

 

And if an MI rep gives technical advice that seems to favor the product that he/she sells, I don't necessarily have a problem with that as long as the information is accurate. If it helps someone to make a better informed equipment purchase, I would call that a win/win situation. No problem.

 

Peace all,

Steve

[RABid]

First, I think it should be common courtesy that anyone working for a keyboard or music related field should have that company in their signature. Otherwise they should never take part in a discussion concerning their company or any competitor

 

Second, I have gotten some great tips and advice from people who work for the company I inquire about. Example, without assurance from Jeff that it was OK to do so I would not have purchased GS lite and immediately ordered GS160 at a big savings over the street price. This was not pushed on me, I asked Jeff directly within a thread on the product. I have also been able to ask questions on software compatibility, bios upgrades and more direct from a manufacture rep. This is nice.

 

Third, the What keyboard should I buy? threads. We see a lot of those and this is a time for manufacture reps to STAY AWAY. There are so many people here with long term experience that newcomers can get plenty of advice. The only time a rep should but in here is when misinformation is given and even this you have to be very careful. Also, if someone in the thread mentions problems with a specific item it might also be acceptable to address concerns about a bug in the bios or similar problem if a fix is in the works. If someone says your piano sound sucks or your software is crap because it will not work with Soundblaster Live, bite the bullet and let use users debate among ourselves.

 

I think this forum is better with the reps involved. Maybe not because they are reps, but because they have been around the business for so long. I have not been here that long, but in the last month I have noticed more "pushing". I understand Dave's dilemma.

 

Robert

 

Product tester for Typo's R Us.

 

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Rabid ]

[Magpel]

I agree that:

 

A) "No-sell" is truly in the spirit of this forum.

 

B) The MI professionals (even closeted ones like Steadyb...) who frequent this forum are a major, major asset. I think they should identify themselves and their biases, and then proceed as normal community memebers. There are many times where we might want to address Jeff directly about Tascam's plans for Gigasampler, or ask Dave a question about, erm, those E.V.E.s. I think solicited info is fine. Spam is a judgment call.

 

C) Work as a group to take the policing burden off Dave.

[Felix_dup1]

I've always felt that the forums here did a pretty good job of policing themselves. Just about everyone here has no problem with calling Spam Spam when they see it. And Dave, while I know you don't like being the bad guy, you're the only one with "delete" power (and it's kinda fun watching those situations develop).

 

Granted, there's a ton of excellent information we get from employees of Manufacturers and dealers. When it's presented in the right way, it's very useful and gives us all insight we wouldn't otherwise have. When it's presented in the wrong way, it's pretty obvious that it should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

We all need to realize, though, that some of the individuals (SteadyB, for instance), likely post on their own behalf, not their employer's. I intentionally avoid bringing up the fact that I work for a retailer (except in cases where I think the information is truly helpful), simply due to the fact that my opinions don't speak for my employer as a whole. There's also gear I personally like or dislike - though as an employee I'm committed to supporting everything we sell. Regardless of where people work, they should always be able to participate as end-users - and only identify their affiliation with a manufacturer or retailer in the cases where it's appropriate.

 

This probably rambled in a few too many different directions, but I think the policy is good the way it is. To give an inch would be to loose several hundred miles, and this place is too cool for that!

[guestuserguestuser.com]

I agree with Dave's policy.

 

If someone is recommending a product from their company, they should identify themselves as a rep of that company. It's the professional thing to do, and the polite thing to do. I can't see why anyone would object to it.

[b_3guy]

I really appreciate people who are professionals in the business because of their insight. Also they have great stories to tell. But the key word is professional. If they keep it at some what of a professional level, the urge to police them will be curtailed. It's unfortunate that db feels like a Bad Guy when he has to do this, but someone has to do it & that's why he gets the Big Bucks!

[Steve LeBlanc]

I'm sorry you have to deal with this kind of crap Dave and thank you for the time spent (and the patience needed)

 

I hate spam, I hate being approached by salesmen..if I've some extra money and interest in making a purchase I'LL FIND YOU...if you know what I mean.

 

If a person's sole reason for posting here is to try and manipulate people into a sale, well it's despicable and I'll call them on it if I see it.

 

Out of courtesy any MI professionals really should announce who they work for when making specific comments about the gear they sell...if they're talkin music or technology in general it's not necessary...but if SteadyB was talking up EMagic I would expect him to tell us he works there...otherwise I really don't need to know.

 

The Keyboard Corner community should be able to police itself, unfortunately we don't all know these MI guys like you do Dave so I think we're going to at least need your help in identifying the sneaky ones.

 

So maybe instead of all the legwork...you can just post (hey ya'll this guy works for "blank")...I would really hope it wouldn't be necessary.

 

Why not add a comment in the Forum description that makes the nature of this forum a bit more clear...just a thought.

[Pim]

Keep our forum the way it is: no commercial postings!

 

Dave, please don't feel like an asshole when you kick one...

[Tusker]

Well I appreciate the presence of the MI pros here. So achieving the balance between shutting off commercial speech and gagging knowledgable members is a worthy goal.

 

If I may say so without kissing ass Dave, your technique of building awareness of this issue through dialog, is one more example of your skillful piloting of this forum. Thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Jerry

[Postman]

I'm in favor of keeping the policy the way it is since changing it may chase away some of our old friends.

 

But, if I were to have my preference...

 

Manufacturer's reps should be able to annouce products here as long as the message is custom made. I don't want to see the same press release I just deleted from my inbox here on the forum. A topic should be dedicated to the announcement. Its title should give clear indication of the contents of the topic. Reps from competing companies should stay out of those discussions.

 

I agree that they should be required to divulge their affiliation.

 

Reps shouldn't use the forums to compete directly with each other. Negative comments about the competition should be strongly discouraged. The few times this has happened it got personal fast. I don't want to be part of that.

 

Reps would have to accept that posting an announcement here would be tantamount to agreeing to an interview by the forum members (by posting questions and comments as usual). They can't just post and not follow up.

 

The reps would also be expected to show up on a regular basis, so that users of older products can have their grievances addressed if need be.

 

If they meet the above conditions, I think the prohibition against talking up their products should be lifted. After all, I don't want to buy a product that the manufacturer doesn't believe in. Really, DB, I wouldn't mind if you talked about the design of the Andromeda more. I think it would be really interesting. Then again, I'm a card carrying geek. If we don't allow reps to show enthusiasm, we are in a way requiring them to be dishonest (or at least not be wholly truthful).

 

Reps should be allowed to ask the forum members for input on future projects. Yes, this is marketing research, but after posting here for a good while now, I am very interested in having this forum's opinions affect manufacturer's design decisions.

 

Finally, under no circumstances should music stores or websites be allowed to post their current deals. I get enough of that in my inbox.

 

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Postman ]