How do we know that this is the ultimate reality?

[Six Black Roses]

Matrix

Dark City

 

Read about those two movies to get a little idea of what the hell I'm talking about...

 

Now that you've taken the steps so far, ask yourself this:

 

Can I prove to myself that this is the ultimate reality... is there anything I can do to be sure 100% that this is exactly what it seems to be?

 

My answer when I asked was 'no'. I doubt anyone can argue with that, if they're smart and actually know what the question is asking.

 

Now here's the bad part...

 

Doesn't this question every absolute thing? For all you know, you can be just a series of 1's and 0's so complicated that you assume you are alive and have an intelligence. Maybe I never really typed this up... maybe all this is just going on in your own little world... a part of an experiment perhaps?

 

What's sickening and depressing is that there's absolutely no way of telling if what you think is real, is in fact real.

 

Frruck.

[ricknbokker]

reminds me of the scene in 'Animal House' where Pinto smokes pot for the first time. Going on about universes on his thumbnail or some such nonsense...

 

Seriously though, and I mean this... I've decided not to post replies on threads that make my head hurt.

 

Sorry...

 

Steve

(where's my Advil?...)

[Slowly]

Originally posted by Six Black Roses:

Matrix

Dark City

 

Read about those two movies to get a little idea of what the hell I'm talking about...

 

Now that you've taken the steps so far, ask yourself this:

 

Can I prove to myself that this is the ultimate reality... is there anything I can do to be sure 100% that this is exactly what it seems to be?

 

My answer when I asked was 'no'. I doubt anyone can argue with that, if they're smart and actually know what the question is asking.

 

Now here's the bad part...

 

Doesn't this question every absolute thing? For all you know, you can be just a series of 1's and 0's so complicated that you assume you are alive and have an intelligence. Maybe I never really typed this up... maybe all this is just going on in your own little world... a part of an experiment perhaps?

 

What's sickening and depressing is that there's absolutely no way of telling if what you think is real, is in fact real.

 

Frruck.

 

Don`t question life, embrace it for all it worth, and enjoy. For I`m the only true being in the universe. And everything is here to support my existence. Past, present, and future. Once I cease to exist, all will disappear. Live long and proser. Casey

[BOOKUMDANO]

I don't remember for sure, but I think I may have signed a contract at some point with the Lucid Dream company....and based on the kinds of days I sometimes have, I wonder if there might still be glitches in their software....still waiting for the tech guy to appear to answer that one.

[Dan South]

Good films, but what difference does it make. What you experience is NOT what's real, but a very limited version of reality. We can only see a small fraction of the universe, and even then, we're only seeing a small sliver of the available bandwidth. It's like listening to a symphony with only the frequencies between 400 and 430 Hz available. Yet, we cope with this tiny sliver of information, and we accept and believe that it is a true representation of reality, even though it's vastly limited.

 

Likewise, you can't see the millions of small bacteria that are crawling all over you right now. The human body is like an enormous zoo, but we just see one organism. Is that reality? It's not a very accurate picture of reality.

 

Not only that, we're only here for an instant. Imagine that you were allowed into a theater to see a play, but you're only allowed to see 10 milliseconds of the play, and with an extremely obstructed view. The script has been shreaded, but we've found a few of the paper shreads, and we've stuck them together for you. Do you understand the play and what it's about? Not likely, yet that's about as much information as human being have about the "ultimate reality."

 

So, again I'll ask, what difference does it make? We'll NEVER know the "ultimate reality". All we can do is to make the best of the reality we can perceive from our short time at an extremely limited vantage point. But since we're all here at the same vantage point, we can still make it work.

 

How old are you? Fifteen? Go have some fun! Go see some movies and eat some popcorn. Go chase some girls. Enjoy your youth. It doesn't last long - BELIEVE me.

[Stephen Fortner]

Centuries before "The Matrix," the French mathematician and philosopher Descartes penned the worry that all of his sense perceptions might be the result of an "evil genius" trying to deceive him. Same idea: you're really on a table somewhere with images being beamed into your mind. With Descartes, it's actually worse, because unlike "Matrix," he envisions the possibility that you don't even have a body. Being as it was the early 1600's, he didn't have any opinion on whether the illusion was more convincing if conducted at 96 KHz.

 

Seriously, there is no deductive proof that our senses provide literally true information about the external world, even if we put aside worries about subatomic particles and such and just think about macroscopic objects like our own bodies, Hammond B3's. etc. But Descartes also famously wrote "I think, therefore I am." To respond to SBR's worry that

For all you know, you can be just a series of 1's and 0's so complicated that you assume you are alive and have an intelligence.

let's assume the worst-case scenario is true. There is really a malevolent force out there making you think you have a body, a life, friends, etc. Even so, the one thing you cannot doubt is that you exist, because even a perfectly evil genius would need a victim if his aim was to deceive someone else.

 

It also doesn't matter what you're made of. Suppose they are 1's and 0's. If they're organized in a sufficiently complex way that you can even have these worries in the first place, then you exist as a thinking, sentient thing. This isn't really different from, say, biological meat being arranged in the same way. There's another recent virtual reality flick that illustrates this nicely: "The Thirteenth Floor." One of the morals of this movie is that the virtual people existing inside the computer are no less people than you and I. It's a nice counterpoint to "Matrix" and "Dark City."

 

On a lighter note, part of your problem might be Sacramento. I was once there with a friend who had a job interview. We both got the impression that we were in some sort of simulated world after touring the state house and eating at Frank Fat's in old town. Then, when it was time to leave, following the signs to the freeway kept leading us around in circles, always back to Tower Records. And I'm the type who never gets lost.

[Dan South]

Nice post, Steve! May I call you Socrates from now on?

 

All kidding aside, very impressive! You explained complex ideas in a very understandable way. I wish that my profs had had your gift...

[Dan South]

Hey, Six Black Roses,

 

You know, it just struck me that you're the same age as the kid who just crashed a plane into a Florida skyscraper. That kid probably wondered about these same questions. - I know that I did when I was fifteen. - But HE got lost in them. He became cynical and desperate in his search for significance, even though he, like the protagonist in Steve Fortner's "worst case scenario," already HAD significance. He just failed to recognize this.

 

And now he's dead. And he's never going to experience the thrill of a graduation, the adventure of going off to school, the fulfillment of accomplishment, the recognition for a job well done, the reward of service to others, the ecstacy of love, or the magical little voice that calls him "Daddy" when he comes home from work every night.

 

Ponder these little thought puzzles if you wish, but please come back out into the light of day. Human reality is a limited and fleeting thing, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

 

Peace, my young brother,

Your fan,

Dan South

 

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Dan South ]

[Steve LeBlanc]

On a lighter note, part of your problem might be Sacramento. I was once there with a friend who had a job interview. We both got the impression that we were in some sort of simulated world after touring the state house and eating at Frank Fat's in old town. Then, when it was time to leave, following the signs to the freeway kept leading us around in circles, always back to Tower Records. And I'm the type who never gets lost.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! I just busted my gut...I had so similar an experience there.

 

Six Black Roses,

 

Entertain whatever thoughts you must...just stay positive...life is full of limitless possibilities...that's the good part...because things are REALLY screwed up sometimes, it's beautiful to BELIEVE it can (and does) always change.

 

Live for Peace.

 

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Steve LeBlanc ]

[R_dup1]

An interesting argument dating back to the first philosophers indeed. One that spawned the "brains in vats" arguments of Cartesian skepticism. If we are brains in vats, how can we know that the world around us that we perceive is real? The brains in vats argument has met with many attempts to refute it logically, one of the most interesting by Hilary Putnam in his book, Reason, Truth and History which focuses on externalism, but none of these arguments has been successful to date.

However, I believe it is completely irrelavant whether what we perceive is real because I believe that perception is 100% of reality from our own ethnocentric view. I don't really care if I'm a brain in a vat if I can perceive myself to be happily going along in this unreality that I perceive, making music, having fun, overcoming the many challenges that this pseudoworld puts in my way.

 

Is it worth examining the possibility that we are brains in vats? Sure. But, to be depressed about our present inability to prove that we are not, to prove a negative, seems a waste of this reality that we have been given to deal with. Why? Because, even if we are brains in vats, the reality is that we are brains in vats that perceive that we are humans on Earth and the best way to be the best brain in a vat is to make the most of the situation that we are presented with. Of course, this would include changing anything that we are not happy with, including a lifelong pursuit of the answer to the proof that we are not brains in vats, if that is what makes you happy.

 

Me? I'll just continue to enjoy the philosophical enquiries, make some music that I like, play around on the Internet and be a good vatted brain for my keepers. Why? Because I like this perceived reality, and when I don't, I change it to another that I do like.

[tenthplanet]

One needs to have faith (not always in a religious sense),

and belief that there is a something to our existence. It can't seen, felt, tasted, or otherwise sensed. But if we don't believe in something; a starting point if you will, then everything is called into question. Questions without answers.

Michael

[Shiver]

You know, i remember having these types of thoughts when i was fifteen.....mind you i was having these thoughts shortly after ingesting about 7 hits of LSD....but it was the same thing....i thought.."okay, everything looks really odd right now...wavy, distorted.....but my pupils are HUGE....i wonder if everything really does look like this but we just can't normally see it because our pupils aren't normally letting enough light in to see everything for what it really is.".. so this has been something i've been curious about forever. ...that and why exactly it is that everytime i'm in a room with a lot of people and i go for a sip of my drink I burst out laughing as soon as it hits my lips, sending said beverage spraying all over myself and the cute girl sitting next to me..... i don't get it....

shiver

[Six Black Roses]

Um... appearently the meaning of this thread wasn't made very clear from the start...

[cg1155]

Congratulations SBR, you have just discovered Nihilism. Nihilism is the belief that nothing in the world has any meaning - for various reasons. One being that it appears that we have very little influence in it, another being that we have no idea if we are a part of something larger than ourselves. Realizing that there is no objective way to determine if we are in "the ultimate reality" is on the way to realizing these other things. And you're right, there is no way to determine if things are really real because that would require some sort of un-human perception. And that my friend is why spiritual belief in all forms is alive and well in this age of science and reason. Because you see, if nothing matters you must do one of three things:

 

A) You can embrace some sort of non-human knowledge (ie. Bible, Koran, Buddhism, etc) that says things DO matter (I fall into this camp)

B) You can agree that things do not matter and live in despair

C) You can decide that you are the only thing that matters (altruism falls in here because it is self serving on some level)

 

You should read the book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament (really, I'm not proseyltizing here) because that guy has the same conundrum you are in.

 

-Casey

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Nice post, Steve! May I call you Socrates from now on?

 

All kidding aside, very impressive! You explained complex ideas in a very understandable way. I wish that my profs had had your gift...

 

I believe that Brother Fortner's day job is professor of philosophy at a local university...

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

A) You can embrace some sort of non-human knowledge (ie. Bible, Koran, Buddhism, etc) that says things DO matter

 

Assuming, of course, that you believe that these works are non-human in origin...

 

B) You can agree that things do not matter and live in despair

 

Why does one necessarily lead to the other? There are some folks who would find the postulation that things "do not matter" to be freeing. Besides, when you say "matter"...to whom does it matter? Supposing that you follow the school of thought that you are the only one to whom things need to "matter"? Which, of course, leads us to...

 

C) You can decide that you are the only thing that matters (altruism falls in here because it is self serving on some level)

 

This is an interesting point, which can be worded a variety of ways. One way is to make it sound egotistical, while another way might take a bit more of an existential slant. The point basically being that for all intents and purposes, it can be argued that what you do and what you see needs to matter to you first and foremost. It's that whole "To thine own self be true" thing.

 

There are lots of ways to look at things. Who's to say what's "wrong" or "right"....or, for that matter, if there even is such a thing as "wrong" or "right"?

 

dB

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

 

I believe that Brother Fortner's day job is professor of philosophy at a local university...

 

"How do you KNOW she's a witch?"

 

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Dan South:

 

"How do you KNOW she's a witch?"

 

 

"Build a bridge out of her!!!"

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Of course, we could go with this oldie but goodie:

 

Why do we need to prove that this is the ultimate reality (if such a thing is even possible)? It sure plays like it is, doesn't it? For all intents and purposes, doesn't that make it the ultimate reality?

 

I love this sort of stuff...

 

dB

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

 

"Build a bridge out of her!!!"

 

 

But can you not also make a bridge out of STONE?

[Stephen Fortner]

dB, you're talking about the philosophy known as "Pragmatism." It's mainly associated with a guy named William James, as well as John Dewey from my home state of Vermont. The idea is that any view about anything: whether the external world is real, whether there's objective "right and wrong" or whether morality is "all relative," PT vs native, etc, is to be evaluated not on whether it's true or false in some carved-in-stone sense, but on what the practical consequences of the view are. Pragmatism has no diametrically opposed opposite, but the best candidate is probably realism, which holds that there is some way that reality is that is independent of, well, everything else. This state of affairs is then what potentially settles all disagreements.

 

For example. debates on Musicplayer sometimes tend to crop up around whether posters are realists or pragmatists about the definition of the word "better." The whole "George, Watch This!" thread on Mr. Massenburg's forum was built around fairly realist assumptions about whether recording at 96 KHz is better than 44.1 or 48. The tension in that thread between Nika and Alphajerk was largely about what is really the case. A pragmatist, on the other hand, might say that when 96K is a buzzword on the lips of 51% of the A&R and ad agency types who come into your studio, then it's "better."

 

Six Black Roses, you said that your original meaning was not clearly interpreted by the rest of the thread. If you could elaborate or clarify, then perhaps I and others could respond in a way that's more respectful of your intentions. What do you mean by "Ultimate" reality, for starters? Let's say your conclusions are correct, then, why do you find them "sickening and depressing"? I'm not trying to ride your ass here, just trying to learn more so I can respond in a meaningful way.

[cg1155]

In reply to Dave (for clarification):

 

In reference to point A:

Yes, it requires some non-logical belief in these texts/beliefs since any logical belief is grounded in "reality" which, as we have pointed out, cannot be verified.

 

In reference to point B:

I was referring to this aspect of Nihilism in the classical philosophical sense. If you do not despair at this realization then you have moved in to point C.

 

In reference to point C:

To find any satisfaction (in reference to Nihilistic philosophy - note that this point may not hold in other philosophical paradigms) it must be in some aspect of yourself since that is the only thing you have power over in this world view. e.g. I matter therefore life is worth living, or Music matters to me therefore life is worth living, etc.

 

I have been fascinated with Nihilism since college as I find that many of its philosophical points end up being true in real human experience.

 

In reference to the Matrix, when Neo pulls the Zip disc out of the book to give to "White Rabbit's" boyfriend, the book is open to the chapter on Nihilism.

 

-Casey

[Dan South]

Pragmatism - yes, I'm familiar with that term. The Ayn Rand Objectivist group likes to throw that one around as an insult of sorts, like Rush Limbaugh calling someone a LIBERAL! They think that I'm quite pragmatic, the Objectivists, and I think that their exceedingly annoying zealots of a self-aggrandizing cult.

 

Steve, please help. How can I knock the Objectivists down a peg? They refute all of my well-reasoned arguments. I find their arguments are well-reasoned, but (a) based on questionable premises, and (b) leading to ludicrous conclusions. Kind of like filet mignon between two slices of mouldy bread. I can email you specific debate details if that would help.

[Antonio7]

Someone once told me "When you go to sleep, you will awake from your dreams".

 

What he was saying was, that we are in the Real world when we are asleep, and in a Fantasy world when we are awake." hmmm, makes sense I suppose, since I tend to pull more Chicks when I enter my Real world

 

Antonio

[joegerardi]

A DUCK!

[Dan South]

So, if SHE weighs the same as a DUCK...

[R_dup1]

Originally posted by Antonio7:

Someone once told me "When you go to sleep, you will awake from your dreams".

Antonio

 

the sleeper must awaken

[MusicaL]

Ahhhh the meaning of life?

 

44

 

aL

[Bobro]

"...How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

 

"As he has ever judged...Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."

 

-The Two Towers, Tolkien

[joegerardi]

Dinsdale?

 

Dinsdale??