KTempo Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Sorry if this question has been asked before: I'm thinking of buying a keyboard workstation and it's between the Motif and Kurzweil K-2500/2600. But before I make a hugh purchase like this, is the K-series at 48 voice-poly enough for sequencing Dance, R&B, Jazz, Hip Hop music? I just wanna know if any owners of the K-series (or anybody that knows) ran out of poly while sequencing ONLY on the board itself. This will be my first workstation ever (but not my last). Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Hi, Kim... In my experience, the Kurz synths have the best voice-stealing algorithms of any synth with which I have worked. Their "limited" polyphony has not really been an issue for me. In addition, many synth programs tend to use more than one layer to fatten up their sounds and/or make their programs more diverse and interesting. This programming technique uses polyphony very quickly. Two layer programs use two voices per note, three layer programs use three voices, etc. So, you can see that on a 64 voice instrument, a stereo piano program (left sample is one layer, right sample is another) with strings and choir layered in reduce the polyphony of the instrument to 16 voices. Play four notes with both hands twice while holding the sustain pedal, and you're out of voices. That's while only using one program - imagine what happens if you try using a few programs like that for multi-timbral applications. There is, however, an exception to this rule, and it's the Kurzweil K series (V.A.S.T.) synths. They have algorithms which let you layer up to four tones on a note while only eating one layer of polyphony. The caveat is that three of the four tones can only be simple "single cycle" waveforms (square, saw, tri, etc.). However, the point is that it is easy to fatten up sounds on the V.A.S.T. synths without eating polyphony. AFAIK, no other synths can do this... That being said - go play 'em both, and get the one whose sound moves you the most. The rest is just details. Hope that helps some! dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Dave's answer was thorough but let me add a few things. With sequencing alone, you *may* run out of polyphony with BOTH instruments IMHO. The Motif's polyphony is 62. Judging from my cs6x, all the better programs use 3-4 layers, so you're somewhere around a 16-20 note polyphony. Add a pad (4 notes), drums (4 notes), bass line (1), synth lead (2), an arp (2) ... and so forth you are you're getting there. With either of this instruments, with the sequencing *I* do, I would run out, unless I dumped some tracks to audio. Focus your decision on other factors, IMHO (what sounds you like best, ease of use, cost, etc) Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Originally posted by Rod CA: With sequencing alone, you *may* run out of polyphony with BOTH instruments IMHO. I agree with Rod. Another great trick with the Kurz is to resample internal sequences so that they only take up two voices (stereo). I don't know if the Motif can do this, but since it advertises that it has an Integrated Sampling Sequencer, my guess is that it can as well. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTempo Posted January 6, 2002 Author Share Posted January 6, 2002 WOW! Thanks Dave and Rod. I'd just learn something new from your responses! I'll go and play 'em both again but this time _REALLY_ focusing on the sounds themselves (which is the most important thing) instead of the features. Dang, I love this forum... Thanks again, Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geosync Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 It's ALWAYS about the sound. Another thing to try is take a .WAV file and put it in both machines and play with the sound of the same source material. Then you'll get a feel for how good the synth actually sound from the same reference. Take Care, George Hamilton Yamaha US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTempo Posted January 6, 2002 Author Share Posted January 6, 2002 Thanks Geo, I'll try that as well. To be honest, I did listen to the demos online of the Kurz PC2R (as well as the Motif, Triton, EMU MP-7 and Roland XPs & Fantom). I know the MP-7 is not a keyboard but I really like majority of the sounds on that thing. Ummm... My choice BEFORE listening to the PC2R was between the Motif and Triton and I did play on these two boards at Mars Music (as though Mars doesn't carry Kurz K-series for some strange reason). And I was like, okay-I like both but which one should I get! So, I narrowed it down to which one has the better piano & EP sounds. And IMHO, the Yamaha does. But then the piano & EP sounds on the PC2R I liked as well (from listening to it online). So I figured since I like the piano & EP sounds on the PC2R then the K-series should have the same or similar soundset. Then reading the specs on the Kurz K, it only has 48 voices. So that's why I asked about the limited poly--has anyone ever ran out of poly because it's only a 48 voice-poly synth! I already know that the Motif has 62. From that point alone (plus keeping in mind the piano & EP sounds) is why I'd narrowed it down to the Motif and Kurz-- whichever one as my first keyboard workstation. So now that I know that the limited number of poly the Kurz has shouldn't REALLY be the main deciding factor for choosing between it and the Motif or ANY other workstation for that matter. Thanks to Dave and Rod for their detailed responses, I now know that! And that is why, in my second reply, I said that I will "_REALLY_ focus on the sounds themselves (which is the most important thing) instead of the features." So now, I *WILL* focus on the *OTHER* sounds like strings, bass, drum kits, etc... plus keeping in mind the cost too--which in this case, the Motif wins hands down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Originally posted by ktempo7of9@aol.com: Thanks Geo, I'll try that as well. To be honest, I did listen to the demos online of the Kurz PC2R (as well as the Motif, Triton, EMU MP-7 and Roland XPs & Fantom). I know the MP-7 is not a keyboard but I really like majority of the sounds on that thing. Ummm... I want to bring up a different topic that may be important to you - only you may not realize it yet. That is effects programming. If polyphony is an issue for the number of voices you can render simultaneously rather than number of notes you can play using a single voice simultaneously then you want a synth that can do effects per voice. A lot of synths have a limited number of effects channels - or they have a limited number of processors so that using multiple channels limits the effects available per channel. As the effects are usually an integral part of a voice, the result is an effective limit on the number of voices you can use at once, without losing the effects and therefore the quality of the voice. The QS8 is a good example of this problem - it has one (stereo) effects channel so in multi (mix) mode voices sound quite different to in mono (program) mode. You have to render voices one at a time as a result. I know some Roland units have 4 channels of effects. I think the Motif is probably in this category but I do not know for sure. I don't know about the Kurzweil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Smedberg Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 I just want to add that the only time I heard my K2500 stealing voices was when I sequenced a stereopiano and stereodrums with additional leadsounds. But it was only on the notes held by the sustain pedal. This is not a problem for me cos' when recording every sound except one is muted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Originally posted by Byrdman: The QS8 is a good example of this problem - it has one (stereo) effects channel so in multi (mix) mode voices sound quite different to in mono (program) mode. The QS series has four effects sends, not one. I believe that all of them can operate in stereo. The trick is learning your way around the five different effects algorithms. Perhaps what you're tryng to say here is that you can only use one program's effects algorithm in multi (mix) mode, and that the other programs in the mix have to use that same algorithm. That is definitely true...however, most of the programs in the QS do not use all of the sends, so you just have to learn to do a bit of programming to take advantage of this. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: The QS series has four effects sends, not one. I believe that all of them can operate in stereo. The trick is learning your way around the five different effects algorithms. Perhaps what you're tryng to say here is that you can only use one program's effects algorithm in multi (mix) mode, and that the other programs in the mix have to use that same algorithm. That is definitely true...however, most of the programs in the QS do not use all of the sends, so you just have to learn to do a bit of programming to take advantage of this. dB Dave is quite correct - I simplified for the sake of exposition and called them channels rather than sends since that is how they normally appear to the user - as one effects channel with all the parameters coming from one voice. Having to reprogram the sounds to mix them together is more time consuming than rendering one voice at a time though, so its only really useful for creating big layered sounds (which the QS8 does very well) rather than mixing sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 A sustained, busy piano part will eat up more voices than anything. Don't forget to compare the feel of the keyboard and ease of control over the sounds. Also, if you don't have a big preference between the two keyboards go with the cheaper of the two. That puts you closer to picking up that XL-7 as a second sound source. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTempo Posted January 6, 2002 Author Share Posted January 6, 2002 Thank you all for responding. Rabid-- I love the feel of the Triton Pro keys as oppose to the Motif 7. I can't comment on how the keys feel on the K-series because I haven't played on it yet. If it's anything like the Kurz SPs, then it has a much better feel than the Motif 7. But you're right though. I could go for the one that cost less *AND* get the EMU MP-7 as well. Man, what to get with my tax refund when I get it? Decisions, decisions... Robert-- See, I have the QS6.1 and I use it as a controller for soft synths and sound source. I don't use any of the built-in effects because I'm using the computer for that. I'm fairly new to sequencing but always wanted a workstation as a "scratch pad". I mean, I will be using the sounds on it as well like I do with the Alesis. But I just wanted something to use without turning on the computer to record my ideas to. My friends at work told me not to get one because I could get a few sound modules and a 76 or 88 key midi controller for the price of the K2600, since I'm using the computer to sequence on. They are right, but I still want a workstation though. It's like, I'd got to have it! I had a Yamaha MU50 and I sold it to my friend because it was just sitting on my desk collecting dust. I guess I'm not a sound module person. I may change my mind about 'em if I ever play live or something. But for now, I prefer keyboards. The EMU MP-7 may be the only execption... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geosync Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 My little demo of a K2600 may help you understand some of it's capabilities. It's not complete but you'll get an idea. ftp://208.56.97.172/pub/K2600/CLN2001/CLN2001a.html Take Care, George Hamilton Yamaha US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-BOMB Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Originally posted by ktempo7of9@aol.com: I love the feel of the Triton Pro keys as oppose to the Motif 7. Believe it or not, the keyboard actions of the Triton Pro and the Motif are the same FS action manufactured by Yamaha. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix_dup1 Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I know the MP-7 is not a keyboard but I really like majority of the sounds on that thing. If you really like the way the MP-7 sounds, it may be worth waiting to see the new E-MU keyboards - E-MU also will be following up the November release of the P-2500 Command Module and the Orbit 3 Super Synth by introducing a line of keyboards, the PK-6, XK-6, and MK-6, that feature the new, super powerful engine and 24-bit audio outputs found in the Proteus 2500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Originally posted by H-BOMB!!!: Believe it or not, the keyboard actions of the Triton Pro and the Motif are the same FS action manufactured by Yamaha. Rick I believe it. I tried 4 Roland 88 note controllers and digital pianos, different models but the same manufactured keyboard (F5 action). They all felt different. Compaired to the RD700, The FP 9 keys felt bouncy and a bit noisy. Keyboard noise is important to me because I mostly play at low volume or with headphones. As someone pointed in another thread, the stand a keyboard sits on can make a difference in the responce of the keys because a long keyboard only supported on each end may have a bit of a warp. The differences in quality of housing and the amount of bracing between brands and models can have the same effect. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTempo Posted January 11, 2002 Author Share Posted January 11, 2002 Felix-- E-MU is coming out with a keyboard version?? I might just wait for it then. H-Bomb-- Ummm...Maybe, but it sure felt different to me, which leads to Rabid's comment. Well, the Motif was tilted some and the triton wasn't. I'll try it again but this time with both on the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Come tax return time I plan to look closely at a refurbished K2500. I have seen the K2500XS as low as $1700 from a reputable dealer. That is the same as a new P2X. I am not sure the difference between a used K2500SX and a new K2600XS is worth another $2000. It is probably at least a 4 hour drive each direction from my house to Sweetwater, the closest dealer I can think of that can work on a Kurzweil. That has been my dream machine for the past 3 years. To get a new K2600S I would have to put a choke hold on my gear lust and save my tax refunt until I get my work bonus in August. That is a long, long time to go without a gear fix. Robert This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Originally posted by ktempo7of9@aol.com: H-Bomb-- Ummm...Maybe, but it sure felt different to me Try 'em again, Kim. They're the same action. H-Bomb is correct. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTempo Posted January 11, 2002 Author Share Posted January 11, 2002 I will try 'em again. Maybe I was sleep walking at the time LOL!! I want my keyboard NOW!!! I can't wait till tax refund!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Smedberg Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Originally posted by Rabid: Come tax return time I plan to look closely at a refurbished K2500. I have seen the K2500XS as low as $1700 from a reputable dealer. That is the same as a new P2X. I am not sure the difference between a used K2500SX and a new K2600XS is worth another $2000. It is probably at least a 4 hour drive each direction from my house to Sweetwater, the closest dealer I can think of that can work on a Kurzweil. That has been my dream machine for the past 3 years. To get a new K2600S I would have to put a choke hold on my gear lust and save my tax refunt until I get my work bonus in August. That is a long, long time to go without a gear fix. Robert Try finding one with the additional rom-boards. They make this synth alot better. I don't have KDFX in my K2500 but I've heard that that also make a big difference. I use a Digitech Studio Quad4 instead, connected to output C and D for two extra stereo fx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intheether Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Hey Kim: I'm sure you've already weighed all your options but in case you haven't, I just wanted to point something out to you. If you're purchasing a high end workstation to be the be-all-end-all of your music production, I'd rethink that. Even the best, bad assed workstation can't hold a candle to a hard disk based DAW. Like I said, you may be already using a computer for production, but if not, I'd at least consider that frist. This comes from personal expereice as the first big monetary purchase I ever made was my Trinity (at the time like $2500) and I still use it as a keyboard, but after recording in DP, you'll find the workstation features on any board obsolete. And make no mistake, you are paying pretty heavily for the sequencer alone. On the flip side, a workstation is pretty sweet to have for banging out ideas quickly. Just wanted to share my experience with you is all. And while I don't regret my purchase at all - I'd choose a Kurweil over a Korg in a second. The K2600 is way cool. Good luck whatever you decide! ~nel * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Martin Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Originally posted by Rabid: It is probably at least a 4 hour drive each direction from my house to Sweetwater, the closest dealer I can think of that can work on a Kurzweil. I see you're from Kentucky. Bizianes Music in Louisville is an authorized service center for Kurzweil, plus they have an excellent staff. Since they are likely much closer to you, you might want to give them a try. For some reason they are not listed as a dealer or service center on the Kurzweil website, I will forward the info to our web guy so the database can get updated. Try finding one with the additional rom-boards. They make this synth alot better. I don't have KDFX in my K2500 but I've heard that that also make a big difference. KDFX makes a huge difference and thats one of the major differences between a K2500 and K2600...KDFX is standard on the K2600 while its optional on the K2500. Other items such as balanced outputs, 64MB of sample RAM, the stereo piano and more PRAM are standard on the K2600. Last but not least the K2600 is also capable of producing sounds that the K2500 can't using Triple Modular Processing. So though there is a difference in price between a refurbished K2500 and a new K2600, you should consider all of these things before you make a purchase. -Mike Martin Casio Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthguy Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 In case you're still undecided, let me toss my own in. The Yamaha will have a better selection of pianos on board, and they sound fantastic. The other sounds for the most part are also sweet. The effects are nice but a little limited, so that you can only use the two insert effects from one master patch. You can use the effects as an outboard processor when mixing which is cool. It also has three user install slots for extra synth boards, so you can add a small Prophet 5-like synth, a piano board, a DX FM board, an VL board and more. However its synth section can't hold a candle to the Kurzweil. It's like a baby Synclavier or DAW. The synthesis power it has is unbelievable, and it sounds very good. I like the filters more, and the extra synth oscillators makes it more like a 64 or better voice synth. It has a great B-3 emulator, and there are a lot of controllers on board, with ribbons, pedal and breath control inputs, as well as eight sliders and ten buttons. The effects are very powerful, so good that Kurzweil put out an effects module that uses them, and you can use them on mixdown as well. All the expansion options are user installable too. Plus with sampling, the universe of sound is open to you, so you can have any instrument you want from a world of CD roms. Between the two, I'd get a K2600 if I could, or both. Or a Kurz and a Roland, or... This keyboard solo has obviously been tampered with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTempo Posted January 13, 2002 Author Share Posted January 13, 2002 Synthguy-- I get your point--"Between the two, I'd get a K2600 if I could, or both. Or a Kurz and a Roland, or..." I want 'em all too!! Nelz-- "If you're purchasing a high end workstation to be the be-all-end-all of your music production, I'd rethink that. Even the best, bad assed workstation can't hold a candle to a hard disk based DAW." I am using a computer to do my recordings (PC-Cakewalk). So really, I understand. I'd decided that I didn't need a sampler on the keyboard so that eliminates the K2500/2600, Motif7 and Triton Pro. For a non-sampler workstation, that leaves the Karma (61-keys) and Fantom (76-keys). So I would go for the Fantom since I want 76-keys. Plus, I like Roland XV sounds just as much as Kurzweil, Korg and Yamaha. But don't think that this will be it for sounds though. This is only the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 13, 2002 Share Posted January 13, 2002 Originally posted by synthguy: However its synth section can't hold a candle to the Kurzweil. Nothing can. AFAIK, the VAST engine is still the most flexible and powerful synth engine currently available. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthguy Posted January 13, 2002 Share Posted January 13, 2002 Concur Dave. To top that, the synth engine is virtually unchanged after nine years! How many synth makers can say that?? The Kurzweil truly is VAST. But I must say the Fantom is also an incredible board. I love the way Roland's rom waves sound, very well done, and the synth engine is very potent too, lots of flexibility for nearly unlimited synth power, and great effects. I was gushing over it on another msg board. This keyboard solo has obviously been tampered with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geosync Posted January 13, 2002 Share Posted January 13, 2002 Concur Dave. To top that, the synth engine is virtually unchanged after nine years! How many synth makers can say that?? The Kurzweil truly is VAST. That was true. Till Triple Modular Programming (K2600 only). I call it VAST2 instead of 32 Algorithms there are 128. And Master/Slave Mode was added for the Vocoder. The "audio" output of 1 layer can modulate other layers without requiring an external input. or the sample option (K2500 and K2600) [ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Geosync ] Take Care, George Hamilton Yamaha US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix_dup1 Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 In nine years, you'd think they could've found a way to bring prices down... V.A.S.T. is indeed very cool, but personally I'd like to see what Kurzweil would come up with a greater commitment to R&D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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