Cowfingers Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 just a thought after a conversation with my basist. i have to agree with him that music is too synthetic now, especially if you look at the top 40. no one seems to be intreasted in the raw live sound anymore. what does anyone else think? is there ever any likelyhood that the likes of Hendrix, The Doors or Led Zep will become popular again. Personally ive always loved to hear a band do 'live style' on their albums, where everything you hear is done with little or no overdubs. opinions? -starfucker Visit my band : www.neonfleacircus.net or www.myspace.com/neonfleacircus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 I agree with you...I hope it becomes popular again. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joegerardi Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Star: Great topic. I'll take the side that yes, music today is WAY over-produced. Between people wanting to take computers with them on gigs, to tops acts having tapes played in order to reproduce the sound, music (IMNSHO) has become little more than a marketing world. I read things like bar bands not willing to go on a gig without backups for keyboards - something I can't believe when I read it - to everyone having the newest and bestest HD recorder for home studios. What ever happened to the players? We are amazed at people like Keith Emerson, Tony Banks, and Rick Wakeman, but these people never used sequencers in the heyday of prog rock: They played, and we sat awed. Pink Floyd put on the most amazing concert I've ever seen with PULSE, yet it was David Gilmour's playing which captures. They, more than anyone use production VALUES more than just production, to get the music across. I guess that's why they needed 10 people to do it. They, more than anyone, use sequencers to enhance the music, not to cover up for piss-poor playing skills. I doubt these people took backup rigs with them on tour... Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucktunes Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: I agree with you...I hope it becomes popular again. I think these things tend to go in circles. Remember back in `90 when the Milli Vanilli thing blew up? Suddenly the public was unimpressed and uninterested in technology-based music. They just wanted to hear musicians singing songs again, which paved the way for the "unplugged" era. Now that time has gone by and there's a whole new generation of music fans who don't remember 1990, it's kind of come full circle. The top 40 is full of made-to-order pop puppets that are sounding more and more generic. I think now would actually be a good time for genuinely talented new artists to break through. At least I can hope! Peace all, Steve ><> Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucktunes Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by joegerardi: What ever happened to the players? We are amazed at people like Keith Emerson, Tony Banks, and Rick Wakeman, but these people never used sequencers in the heyday of prog rock: They played, and we sat awed. I think if you want to hear this today, you have to listen to jazz. That's where all the keyboard heroes are today. Some country has some impressive playing as well, but the more mainstream country pretty much sticks to pop formulas. That is, solos are brief and predictable. Peace all, Steve ><> Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowly Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 I`m so sick of this 'canned' music I could puke. I get most of my music at church where it`s always live and ad libbed. Casey "Let It Be!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 I suppose it's a matter of taste, but yeah, I think a lot of popular music is overproduced. Set aside the Britneys and Backstreets--that stuff is why over-production exists. What bothers me is that even the new guitar bands and singer songwriters have the nearly indistinguishable drum loops running through their stuff. That, and the heavily filtered, trashily distorted vocals--I like it the first 7,000 times I heard it. But I also freely confess to the onset of curmedgeon-ness. Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by Magpel: I suppose it's a matter of taste, but yeah, I think a lot of popular music is overproduced. Set aside the Britneys and Backstreets--that stuff is why over-production exists. What bothers me is that even the new guitar bands and singer songwriters have the nearly indistinguishable drum loops running through their stuff. That, and the heavily filtered, trashily distorted vocals--I like it the first 7,000 times I heard it. But I also freely confess to the onset of curmedgeon-ness. I happened to catch the start of the BBC's Top Of The Pop awards show the other night on BBC America. I guess that Top of the Pop's was always rather dire, and perhaps I have simply forgotten how bad it was - but things at the moment seem to be particularly awful. We turned it off to avoid throwing up. The English pop music scene was similarly vomitous back in 75. That time round the world was saved from worshipping the porcelain god by punk. Its time for another irruption! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 When was the last time you heard a "GOOD" keyboard solo in a pop song. Guitar? Anything over 4 measures? This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by Rabid: When was the last time you heard a "GOOD" keyboard solo in a pop song. Lucky Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucktunes Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by Rabid: When was the last time you heard a "GOOD" keyboard solo in a pop song. Anything over 4 measures? "Just To See Her", "Miami Vice Theme", "Rosanna", "Africa", "The Way It Is" There's a few from the `80's. I don't remember any from the `90's. Peace all, Steve ><> Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthplanet Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Let's not forget that many recordings are having the dynamic range sucked out of them. Stereophile magazine hit upon this a while back. Unfortunatly they are right. Imagine playing a CD and having it sound like the compressed sound off the radio. That's what were coming to folks... Michael Q:What do you call a truck with nothing in the bed,nothing on the hitch, and room for more than three people in the cab? A:"A car".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombastique Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 I work with some fabulously talented musicians, yet sometimes I'll do live shows with artists that I have produced for using sequenced or recorded backing tracks and maybe 1 or 2 live musicians. Why? Because to have live musicians costs $$$ - not only in having to pay them, but the additional setup/breakdown time at shows, the additional gear needed to do it properly and the time needed to rehearse - we won't even factor in the flakiness of your common musician or the ego factors involved. We do alot of live shows with the recorded backing tracks - and to be honest, most people don't mind, because they are happy to hear things as they should be. We'll also do a full on live show when we can get together the budget, venue and all the necessary accoutrements to make it a truly memorable event. None of the people I know were born with silver spoons in our mouths - we do what we can with the tools we have at hand, because we love what we're doing. If I could have all live musicians up on stage for every gig I probably would - but they would have to be the right musicians, ones that share the vision, can keep their egos in check and are there more for the playing than the paying. Know what I mean? Let's take, for example, another talented friend of mine, who spent thousands of dollars to record her debut cd - she got some incredibly talented musicians to play on it and a great producer to help her get her vision down right. It turned out great. Now she could go out and play solo guitar or solo piano and sing, but that wouldn't set her apart from the hundreds of other solo songwriters around here, so she plays all the backing tracks off an ADAT and it makes the show just that much better. She'd love to have all those great musicians play with her every time she does a gig, but there's no way she could afford it. What's happened to the live musicians? They're out there - just as much as they've always been. I can see live bands any day of the week - and good ones, too. Crying about how things aren't like the old days is just silly - time marches on and things will change whether you like it or not. You can choose to look at it as something 'bad' or you can try to look at it for it's merits. They're all people just trying to do what they like to do in the best way they know how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP3 Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by bombastique: [QB] Because to have live musicians costs $$$ - not only in having to pay them, but the additional setup/breakdown time at shows, the additional gear needed to do it properly and the time needed to rehearse - we won't even factor in the flakiness of your common musician or the ego factors involved. /QB] If there could be more focus on live musicians, and the value they bring to a live performance, the future of live music would be greatly enhanced. All too often, singer dont sing because they have to dance. When they dance, they are not able to sing. For me, seeing a live artist lip-sync just shows me that they dont give a shit about their own music. They only care about product, profit and image. Its what the labels want, only because they lost touch with the ability to market real bands. Milli Vanilli was a sad beginning to whats going on now. Once the industry saw they could totally fabricate a product and move millions of units, they could care less about developing real live acts. Some of these products have a good deal of talent, but the image is what is pushed. Originality is lacking, experimentation is the death blow for many artists who truly wish to do something more emotional, more raw. Some of my favorite music would never get out these days because of this attitude the industry has. This is why many artists get inspired by music that is decades old. Not that there isnt a wealth of new talent out there, they usually get dismissed as not-profitable. A few artists are slick enough to get their message out, but that is the exception to the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombastique Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 I think you're thinking too much in terms of an artists ability to sell alot of units and create profit. I'm speaking purely of an artists ability to do their art and have it come across as intended. The music 'business' is just that - a business. They're always thinking in business terms and how what they're doing affects the bottom line. I think that's one of the reasons there's so little emphasis on MAKING music, rather than MAKING profit. I was inspired by Richie Cunningham from Happy Days - I just love the way he wailed on that sax. Too often I hear people getting into music to 'be famous' or 'make lots of money' - it deemphasizes the true rewards of playing and making music. Some of the best musicians I've met wander around happily in semi-obscurity because they're not concerned with profits. They don't think of themselves as a business - as long as they can cover their bills and feed themselves and continue playing music, they're happy. I think that if you want to find the 'real' musicians and talent, you have to dig deeper than what the major labels are shoveling out the doors like so much manure. That's just my opinion, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by TinderArts: Milli Vanilli was a sad beginning to whats going on now. Once the industry saw they could totally fabricate a product and move millions of units, they could care less about developing real live acts. And I quote from that great live band... "Hey. Hey. We're the Monkeys. People say we monkey around...." This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
industriac Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 I agree that music today is overproduced. Producers and such doing a ton of stuff on ProTools or some other software program to "enhance" the music. Things are crisp and clear, and if the singer is off key then thats changed. I still listen to a lot of recordings from the 80s and the recording quality is still good even though most of it was done analog. Thats why when I write and produce my own music I try to keep things as simple as possible. I dont see the point of layering a gajillion loops and having little intricate background parts and processing my vocals so its 100% perfect. The musicians hired for all these pop boyband, and "solo-girl" groups do write and produce some catchy, hooky, music even though I dont like it. Also, I agree with whoever said it, that it is expensive to hire a lot of the musicians used for a record, unless there is already a band. Just remember a lot of these top40 pop groups are controlled by the major record labels...all they want is MONEY. Sooner or later, hopefully sooner, these groups are gonna drop out like what happened to New Kids On The Block. About live performances, a lot of electronic artists perform with backing tapes because it is nearly impossible to reproduce a lot of the intricate or fast synthlines live. Maybe thats because also most electronic outfits are only at most 2-3 people and they dont have money to hire a lot of people. And, when performing live, I rather see a band perform songs that dont resemble the CD 100%. Then what is the point of seeing the band if you hear the exact same music you can listen to while at home on a nice stereo system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobT Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Originally posted by kcbass: I`m so sick of this 'canned' music I could puke. I get most of my music at church where it`s always live and ad libbed. Casey I gotta agree with you there kcbass. I know I get a lot (spiritually, personally and musically) by playing in church. I really like a lot of 'live' gospel/praise and worship music on CD. I like a lot of music from films too. I guess some of it sounds 'canned'. But matching music to a visual story (and not a just a bunch of hootchy mamas, headbangers, thugs or corporate pop creations) seems like it really is an art. And a difficult one to master well. What do you think of some of the gospel groups/bands/music today. Are they as manufactured as some of the secular acts? Or is it truly a different genre with different rules? RobT RobT Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 playing a CD and having it sound like the compressed sound off the radio. That's what were coming to folks... A lot of CDs are already there. bombastique, I don't have a problem with music that lack live players or even loop based stuff...I think more of us here are frustrated at the lack of the opposite...not necessary the presence of overproduced (or under performed ) music. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombastique Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 I have to make a point about something industriac said - about how if a singer is off-key, it gets 'fixed'. Well - I've taken my stand on that issue and leave it in, flaws and all. You know what - the ONLY people to bitch about it are other producers and tech heads! In fact, they seem obsessed about it - I can't tell you the number of times I've heard 'why didn't you use pitch correction - EVERYBODY DOES IT!". As far as I'm concerned, we've dug our own hole and it's up to us to climb back out of it. I'm always doing what I can to turn people on to stuff that's a little more raw, a little less tailored for radio airplay and a whole lot less influenced by money, rather than the music. I must admit - I (we - my studio partner and I..) experiment alot when doing production. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Alot of times things will go out that we know aren't 'perfect', but that we think captures something - about the music, about the artist, about that particular time in their life. There's too much 'safety' in the major label dreck that I hear - very little of it pushes any envelopes, takes a chance - there is very little that seems personal about it to me. Enough! I'm off my soapbox...NEXT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harp Heaven Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 What we`re seeing now...Is that "plastic-pop", you know what I speak of: gorgeous girls and handsome boys with a huge corporate backing, is being taken more and more to the extreme. Take a listen to "Crazy" or even a hit by the late and great Boyzone. You`ll hear a world of difference between those songs and "Slave 4 U". I sense that the tides are shifting, and that will see yet another evolution in popular music. People are growing tired of the force-fed marketing and music that is made for being popular. Why do you think the Blair Witch Project had such a huge success, and Star Wars: The Phantom Menace was a financial flop in terms of expectations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Originally posted by Rabid: And I quote from that great live band... "Hey. Hey. We're the Monkeys. People say we monkey around...." Yep - Villi Manilli were by no means the first band to not play on their own records. Instances are documented in Motown as well. If you recall, the plot of "Singing in the Rain" revolves around the same thing so its not even a recent invention. Many "live band" TV shows over the years have REQUIRED that bands mime to their records instead of playing live. The whole shock horror thing over Milli Vanilli was totally bogus - one has to feel sorry for those guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix_dup1 Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 My 2 cents - Making this thread about Britney Spears and Boy Bands is silly. They're obvious and popular targets in these forums, but by always focusing on them, we give them way too much credit. Take a look at the top albums of last year - only a few are Popstars. The remainder are Hip-Hop and/or Alternative Rock. Same goes for Concert Grosses. Not much Pop there either - actually a bunch of classic rock acts. Over-produced music affects way more genres than just Pop. In fact, I'd be hard-pressed to name an act with widespread national exposure who doesn't take advantage of the PROduction TOOLS available to them today, or isn't over-produced in some way (think Creed, U2...). And it's been going on ever since the technology became available. Was Queen over-produced? Were the Carpenters? The Monkees? The Beatles? How about Pink Floyd? At times, any or all of these artists were probably over-produced to some extent. Where do you draw the line - were artists over-produced as soon as they could overdub mistakes? Or when they could correct keyboard errors in a MIDI sequencer? Or when they used Auto-Tune? Or are they over-produced as soon as their work is embellished with a ton of outboard effects? And shouldn't we use the amazing technology available to us to realize our musical visions? I think it's important also to realize that there are some forms of music nowadays that are production-based rather than performance-based. Whether you like music like this is up to you, but there's a bunch of worthwhile music that came about this way - and I don't personally feel that the fact that it's not performance-based should make it any less credible. Is music overproduced nowadays? Sure it is. But I don't really mind if I like it. And if I don't like it, it doesn't really matter how it's produced - because I still don't like it. And by the way... the last memorable keyboard solo I can think of is the piano solo in the Ben Folds Five song, "One Angry Dwarf and 200 Solemn Faces." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Originally posted by bombastique: Let's take, for example, another talented friend of mine, who spent thousands of dollars to record her debut cd - she got some incredibly talented musicians to play on it and a great producer to help her get her vision down right. It turned out great. Now she could go out and play solo guitar or solo piano and sing, but that wouldn't set her apart from the hundreds of other solo songwriters around here, so she plays all the backing tracks off an ADAT and it makes the show just that much better. She'd love to have all those great musicians play with her every time she does a gig, but there's no way she could afford it. Now this is where I have a problem. When does it stop being the artist's vision? If I write a couple of chord changes, write lyrics. Then : - Hire an outstanding guitar player to do all sorts of cool comping and an amazing guitar solo (that he came up with). - Hire an amazing bass player that does all sorts of cool walking bass lines - Hire an amazing b-3 player - Get a whole horn/wind section. I think this is part of the problem of overproduced. If you can't duplicate most of the music on your record with 'good musicians' at a live scene, it's not your music anymore. If you didn't come up with most of the parts, or had a significant influence, it's not your music. People have used studio musicians for the longest time. And people have always played live. Example : Dire Straits didn't have a keyboard player in the Making Movies album. Did they have a sequencer playing the piano parts? No, they got a keyboard player. I rather listen to a DJ, then go to a live concert where most of the stuff is played back from tape. I don't care for a sequence here and there (extra percussion parts, some keyboard lines), and have seen big axes do it, but one the majority of the stuff is played from the tape, it's not live anymore. Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Originally posted by industriac: And, when performing live, I rather see a band perform songs that dont resemble the CD 100%. Then what is the point of seeing the band if you hear the exact same music you can listen to while at home on a nice stereo system. I'm with you 100% on this one. Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Originally posted by bombastique: Because to have live musicians costs $$$ - not only in having to pay them, but the additional setup/breakdown time at shows, the additional gear needed to do it properly and the time needed to rehearse - we won't even factor in the flakiness of your common musician or the ego factors involved. We do alot of live shows with the recorded backing tracks - and to be honest, most people don't mind, because they are happy to hear things as they should be. We'll also do a full on live show when we can get together the budget, venue and all the necessary accoutrements to make it a truly memorable event. None of the people I know were born with silver spoons in our mouths - we do what we can with the tools we have at hand, because we love what we're doing. If I could have all live musicians up on stage for every gig I probably would - but they would have to be the right musicians, ones that share the vision, can keep their egos in check and are there more for the playing than the paying. Know what I mean? And what's different now? I've been going to concerts since 1980 (I was only 8). Last one I watched was 2 weeks ago. Large bands/small bands. I've paid $60 for a ticket, or seen it for free. It has always been done. If people can pull this in brazil (gear is MUCH more expensive and you can't charge as much for tickets), I can't see what the complaining is about. So what changed? It is that hard? Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 The difference is some singers are happy being part of a band and some singers don't want to share the spotlight or the money. As long as everyone is young and struggeling things are fine. When a band makes it big the singer starts to think, "Why split things 5 ways when it is cheaper for me to ditch the band, take all the money and pay musicians a set fee." The dark side of my mind laughs whenever a singer goes solo, then is never heard from again. You gotta respect bands like the Stones or Aerosmith that keep it together for so long. Personnaly, I like Van Halen. Fire the singer and keep on rolling. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coren Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 i'm probobly talking about a differnt kind of over production here, but... personally, in the studio, i like to be exact. to me, the studio is like sculpting the art out of clay, it focuses on the art of the emotion. bands like NIne inch Nails, TooL, and Radio head are my good examples of what i think studio recording should be. trent will eat up 70 tracks EASY doing a song, but every LITTLE thing has its place and creates the art. Live however is completly opposite to me. its the ENERGY of the emotion. I like it to be off, raw and unfocused. i woulnt be scared about overproducing taking over however. The band staind has used the song "outside" on cd's, as a radio single, and as a music video, and it was recorded live at family values. you may not like the band (i do though) but it shows that some in the industry think the same way, and are not afraid to use raw material. (well then again, raw equals no highcost production, and something "new" equals more attention, which also equals more money... so why they did it is subjective to your own opinions i guess; but still, they did it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.C. Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 for sometimes I was collecting a band's album .. every album they publish I will sure buy it. But when it comes to a "best of ...." album .. which is a collection of their best hit .. I won't buy it .. unless it is recorded live during a concert tour .. then it is worth buying .. because I know it will sound so much different from the studio recording .. I think that's why raw material is so important .. especially in a band sound .. music is only over produced for those idols.. who can't do their music ... live with music, die with music www.mp3.com/K_C_Lau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudeep Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 definitely over produced. I have to admit alot of top 40 stuff is catchy, and im sure the guys/gals who write it are very talented and good musicians as well, but what i cant get over is when they show live versions of these songs, they just sound SO flat and so empty!!! its a real shame, maybe they are trying to emulate exactly whats on the over-produced cd for the fans, who know no better. Its strange though, a friend of mine who i used to accompany alot on the keys when she sang, had a HUGE killer voice. She made onto the popstars band here in australia (it was a show that follows the audition process for a girl/boy band, and the winners become a band and get a record contract etc). Now the single has been released, went to no.1 but they sound so produced, so synthesised, which SUCH a shame cos this girl can REALLY sing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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