New jazz and little Jarretts

[marino]

Just a tought.

 

Premise: I love jazz. Really, totally. To me, it's the ideal balance beetween freedom and structure. I am on several jazz CDs, including a few under my own name. If you don't care for jazz as much as I do, this story could be unimportant to you.

On the other hand, I've never been a purist. I've always listened to all types of music, and played them.

So to make it short, I decided to check out a few CDs by young jazz pianists. I bought:

 

-Brad Mehldau: "Progression"

-Esbjorn Svensson: "From Gagarin Point of View"

-Vassilis Tsabropoulos: "Achirana"

They're all trio recordings.

 

First thing I noticed was, wow, how HUGE is the Keith Jarrett influence on all these guys! It's all there, the attitude, introversion, meditative spaces, touch (not always ) etc.

 

Anyway I started with the Mehldau trio and I enjoyed it. I had heard a few other CDs by him, but they left me cold. Here, the live recording seems to add some life to his playing. Or maybe it's just maturity... He still has a certain 'sameness' of touch, but he obviously knows what he's doing.

I really wish this guy can stand all the expectations that are made on him. When a bunch of critics gather to assert that your Art is Very Important, that can really screw a young musician's head! I've read interviews where he said "I want to change the world"... You know, the Winton Marsalis effect I keep my finger crossed for him.

 

Next was Svensson, obviously a very good pianist. He doesn't play a wrong note even if you pay him, has a crispy touch and an excellent control. The whole trio is very tight, too. As for the musical content, um, I'm not so warmed up. Long jams on one chord, big spaces, a nordic fairy-tale atmosphere... All very well done, but lacking something to my ears. The phrasing is SO derivative (Jarrett-like), it's scary! I get a feeling of cold, compressed emotion. At the end, I was a little tired...

 

Tsabropoulos is also a good pianist, and his trio has the wonderful John Marshall on drums. That said, just take the Jarrett-Mehldau-Svensson concept to the extreme. Slow tempos, big spaces, simple harmony, tortured phrasing, the pianist rigorously watching his own navel and producing "profound" tones... Frankly, at the end of this I was ready to fire up my nastiest synth sounds, no, my ELECTRIC GUITAR and scream like Trent Reznor for the rest of the day, while simultaneously playing Metallica and Faith No More on my two stereos.

 

Look, I love Jarrett's playing - he, too, can be exasperating at times, but when he plays simple, you feel that he's showing the tip of the iceberg; there's a big power underneath. It seems to me that these young guys are taking the surface of Jarrett's attitude, and leaving the beef out.

What I couldn't stand is the sense of coldness this music put on me. Jazz should be about feelings, good or bad - if you try to make it compete with classical music, for example, on its own field, it's a lost battle; you just suck the life out of jazz.

 

I know these are old problems, and this is not an attempt to open a discussion on the state of jazz (God forbid); I just wanted to share my impressions.

So are there jazz players/lovers among you Cornerers? What you think of these three pianists? Are there young pianists around with more "beef" that I could listen to? I like J.Calderazzo, Fred Hersch, Benny Green, and I love Billy Childs. I am also a Gordon Beck fan.

Uh, and while I'm at it, allow me to recommend to you Enrico Pieranunzi, a fellow Roman, good friend and one of the absolute best in the world. I especially like his trio CDs with Marc Johnson and Joey Baron.

Come on, let's exchange some ideas...

 

Carlo

 

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: marino ]

[MusicaL]

Carlo

 

I am no Jazz connaisseur, except that I like a couple of jazz bands and love piano jazz technique, chords and voicings.

 

I listen mostly to two bands since they most approximate in opposite ways what I love most about music. The Dave Weckl band gives me the driving rhythm, which to me straight ahead jazz seems to lack, and the Yellow Jackets who give me great chord progression/melodies which jazz excells in, and sometimes they provide great driving rhythms as well.

 

I know what you mean about jazz being about emotion, but that's exactly what I typically find lacking in many jazz recordings. Or maybe I am missing out on the emotions in the sea of notes being played. I do like the YJ when it comes to emotional content. (Can you tell I am a big fan?)

 

I know I am not saying anything about the jazz players you posted about, but I haven't the slightest clue who these people are.

 

Just thought I'd say something in response to your post.

 

My two centavos!

 

Albert

 

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: tuttorney ]

[tenthplanet]

It not just K.J.'s influence, I also blame new age and ambient music. Ambient influence has just about destroyed electronic music (it's become almost depressing to listen to Musical Starstreams these days).

It's weird, but I'm finding most of the good interesting keyboardists are moving into the smooth jazz vein. Are they trying to tell us something.

 

Michael

[Magpel]

Great analysis, Carlo. My question with the "Jarrett Problem," is where does the legacy of Bill Evans fit into this, as he almost invented jazz pianistic introspection, and since I think he was also one of the only guys who could compete with classical, as you say, on its own field. I'm am far far from being an expert, but I do love Bill Evans...

 

John

[Mr Blab Blab Bla]

Svennson and Mehldau to me are a new breed of jazz musician that very much have that European jazz sound. I've heard Brad a few times, I love how he takes pop songs like Nick Drakes River Man and recreates them and the way he plays All the Things You Are in 7/8 cracks me up. Mehldau sure is an interesting character...

 

Svennson (I'm very surprised that he has been mentioned on this board) has a very accessible flavour that I think crosses the boundaries, I've got a MD of them playing at the Pizza Express in London. Such a great band who are as much concerned with the way they project sound as they are about playing. Svennson is what I'd consider a player who cares about every note he plays and makes it count. The composition From Gagarins Point of View is testament to that..

 

Peace

neil

[marino]

Thanks everybody for sharing your thoughts. Now that I've calmed down a bit I can articulate a little better what annoyed me:

A few years ago, western culture discovered that music can (also) be "healing". (No big news for most other cultures, of course.) Unfortunately, record labels soon discovered that too, and a new trend was started... But if as a musician you choose to follow that path EXCLUSIVELY, you're severely limiting yourself. It's not lack of musicality, technique, or dedication that bothered me; it was lack of a broader range of human emotions. Music, as life, can be a lot of things - rage, death, violence, movement, love, sweetness, friendship, simplicity, chaos, blah blah... Instead, I had the sensation to watch a diorama under glass - nice, but just a bit fake.

 

Anyway, enough of this... Can anyone advice on some beefy and bold young (or even old) jazz pianist? Come on American friends, help me.

 

Carlo

[Mr Blab Blab Bla]

I find this thread quite interesting being european (I'm in the UK) as I don't personally find the music of say the Yellowjackets/Spyro Gyra/Weckl (I guess the atypical US fusion bands) etc that interesting, in fact I would say they are to blame for influencing a lot of the bland smooth jazz which exists at the moment. I think the YJ are very good at what they do but I don't get a very deep emotive feeling from their music.. it sounds like music for businessmen to play in their BMWs and Mercs me.

 

Perhaps i'm just too cynical... AFAIK there are no UK bands that play that kind of music, I don't think it works over here

 

I find Brads music quite hard to take in sometimes as its far too dark and intellectual for my tastes... though he does excel at what he does. I do think he is a new generation of pianist which has something different to say, rather than being a Hancock or Corea clone.

 

Esbjorn to me covers a lot of ground, all his CDs have a theme and live they are unmatched. There is a great American pianist by the name of Tim Sund whose work i found totally and utterly absorbing, kind of like Svennson but with a bigger band and lots of texture and intensity.

 

On another note.. there are lots of great things happening at the moment with regard to the old fusion sound of the early 70s which a lot of pianists are incorporating into their sets. I heard Aaron Goldberg do a blistering rhodes solo on a sax players CD recently (think he was called Jimmy Greene) also really like what the band Foursight did a few years a go with Peter Martin on the keys (rhodes/clav and piano)..

 

Theres a guy in europe called Harold Svennson who made an almost 70s Miles Davis'ish CD with again some unbelievable rhodes over drum and bass kind of grooves...

 

Peace

Neil

[marino]

Originally posted by neil loughran:

I find this thread quite interesting being european (I'm in the UK) as I don't personally find the music of say the Yellowjackets/Spyro Gyra/Weckl (I guess the atypical US fusion bands) etc that interesting, in fact I would say they are to blame for influencing a lot of the bland smooth jazz which exists at the moment. I think the YJ are very good at what they do but I don't get a very deep emotive feeling from their music.. it sounds like music for businessmen to play in their BMWs and Mercs me.

Agreed!

Perhaps i'm just too cynical... AFAIK there are no UK bands that play that kind of music, I don't think it works over here

 

I find Brads music quite hard to take in sometimes as its far too dark and intellectual for my tastes... though he does excel at what he does. I do think he is a new generation of pianist which has something different to say, rather than being a Hancock or Corea clone.

 

Esbjorn to me covers a lot of ground, all his CDs have a theme and live they are unmatched. There is a great American pianist by the name of Tim Sund whose work i found totally and utterly absorbing, kind of like Svennson but with a bigger band and lots of texture and intensity.

 

On another note.. there are lots of great things happening at the moment with regard to the old fusion sound of the early 70s which a lot of pianists are incorporating into their sets. I heard Aaron Goldberg do a blistering rhodes solo on a sax players CD recently (think he was called Jimmy Greene) also really like what the band Foursight did a few years a go with Peter Martin on the keys (rhodes/clav and piano)..

 

Theres a guy in europe called Harold Svennson who made an almost 70s Miles Davis'ish CD with again some unbelievable rhodes over drum and bass kind of grooves...

 

Peace

Neil

 

Thanks a million Neil, I think I heard Svennson, I'll check him and the other guys you mentioned.

 

More! More! And from the USA too, please!

[tenthplanet]

Hey Marino:

Why they are not young you can't go wrong with Joe Sample and Ahmad Jamal. Try Jamal's Rossiter Road.

Michael

[MusicaL]

Originally posted by neil loughran:

[QB]I find this thread quite interesting being european (I'm in the UK) as I don't personally find the music of say the Yellowjackets/Spyro Gyra/Weckl . . . I think the YJ are very good at what they do but I don't get a very deep emotive feeling from their music.. it sounds like music for businessmen to play in their BMWs and Mercs me.

 

Woah!!!! the Yellow Jackets and Spyro Gyra in the same sentence... What have you listened to from the Yellow Jackets? To me the YJ are the farthest from a typical fusion band. I don't think there is any resemblance between the two. I could see the path from Spyro Gyra music to the so called smooth Jazz stuff but the Yellow Jackets are way ahead of their time as far as I am concerned.

 

Really, you ought to listen to some of their excellent CD's that don't get any radio time here in the US (because they're not smooth enough I suppose): Politics, Four Corners, Dreamland, Run for your life, The Spin, Green House, and their latest live CD Mint Jam, in no particular order, and there's plenty more...

 

Maybe they don't have that DEEP emotional thing going, but they sure have a lot more than most other jazz bands I have ever listened to.

 

Weckl on the other hand, is just a fine drummer, and his rythmic stuff is very moving in a very fun but unemotional way.

 

Marino, you are clearly an excellent musician, so I feel kinda silly suggesting any piano player to you, considering I am just an amateur... So, I guess I won't. But, have you listened to Russ Ferrante? If you have what do you think of his compositions and his style of playing?

 

My two cents.

 

Albert

 

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: tuttorney ]

[marino]

Thanks Tenthplanet, I am very familiar with Joe Sample already, and I'm simply a fan of Ahmad Jamal! I love Rossiter Road, as I love Digital Works and about everything he plays. Really a unique music personality!

 

Albert, I know Russell Ferrante and the Yellow Jackets very well. I used to listen to them quite a bit in the '80s, not so much lately. What can I say... from a musicianship point of view, all they play is interesting and well done. Russell has mastered an unique style, especially on the rhythm side, and harmonically he's certainly no slouch. Their limit, to me, is their style itself - always in an upbright, happy, reassuring, celebrative mood. The "perpetual party" feeling gets old after a while, to me at last. Compare it with the much broader palette of the Weather Report, for example... But I guess it all comes down to taste at the end.

 

Thanks guys, so what were we talking about - oh yes, jazz pianists - keep'em coming, please, I'm hungry...

 

Carlo

[burlingame]

I thought cedar walton had really good moments on recordings, to say the least. I would like to speak in more depth, but at times listening was often over the radio. Junior Mance has a different and appealing sound to his more recent works. I enjoyed his more rollicking early recording also. What amazed me was Chick Corea`s son at the age of oh say sixteen. Just a phenomenal, crystal clear, vibrancy to the song ( maybe stella, which I never heard like that before. Hope there are more opportunities to here some of the fine talents of jazz, still keeping it fresh and altogether impressive listening experience. The stride, afterthought, always caught attention.

[Mr Blab Blab Bla]

Originally posted by tuttorney:

Woah!!!! the Yellow Jackets and Spyro Gyra in the same sentence... What have you listened to from the Yellow Jackets? To me the YJ are the farthest from a typical fusion band. I don't think there is any resemblance between the two. I could see the path from Spyro Gyra music to the so called smooth Jazz stuff but the Yellow Jackets are way ahead of their time as far as I am concerned.

 

Really, you ought to listen to some of their excellent CD's that don't get any radio time here in the US (because they're not smooth enough I suppose): Politics, Four Corners, Dreamland, Run for your life, The Spin, Green House, and their latest live CD Mint Jam, in no particular order, and there's plenty more...

 

 

I have heard a fair bit of the YJs, didn't like Four Corners too much, but there was a CD from a few years ago which I quite liked, I think I like the YJs when they play more acoustically. I really dislike their synth approach.

 

I also saw the YJs play in a trio setting and they were a different band to what you hear on the CDs...

 

Peace

Neil

[MusicaL]

Originally posted by marino:

Thanks Tenthplanet, I am very familiar with Joe Sample already, and I'm simply a fan of Ahmad Jamal! I love Rossiter Road, as I love Digital Works and about everything he plays. Really a unique music personality!

 

Albert, I know Russell Ferrante and the Yellow Jackets very well. I used to listen to them quite a bit in the '80s, not so much lately. What can I say... from a musicianship point of view, all they play is interesting and well done. Russell has mastered an unique style, especially on the rhythm side, and harmonically he's certainly no slouch. Their limit, to me, is their style itself - always in an upbright, happy, reassuring, celebrative mood. The "perpetual party" feeling gets old after a while, to me at last. Compare it with the much broader palette of the Weather Report, for example... But I guess it all comes down to taste at the end.

 

Thanks guys, so what were we talking about - oh yes, jazz pianists - keep'em coming, please, I'm hungry...

 

Carlo

 

Carlo

 

I totally understand about the upbeat thing, and you're right, had the YJ continued on in that vein, I would not have been a fan still. What has endeared them to me is that although there is always a recognizable streak in their music, it is not all happy by any stretch. I think their style completely changed in the 90's, especially with Marc Russo leaving and Bob Mintzer taking his place. That has changed not only their sound but their mood it seems like.

 

Take for example Greenhouse. The band is accompanied by a full fledged orchestra. We are not talking musac here. It's different and very well done (moody perhaps even unhappy) stuff.

 

I probably sound like I am a YJ promoter or something

 

Having beat that dead horse, I am out...

 

Albert

[RobT]

Very interesting thread.

 

What are the opinions on people like Diana Krall, Marcus Roberts, Cyrus Chestnut, Keiko Matsui (I think I have that name right), Lyle Mays. More smooth jazz imposters? Revisionist retreads? New Age noodlers? Or something else.

 

I agree with some of the comments on the YJ's. I loved the first three discs and then they seem to become bland at least on disc. They are much better live than on disc. I never was much of a Syro Gyra fan. Fattburger, Fourplay and the other clones really sound the same to me. Nothing to distinguish one from another. Weather Report's sonic platte was much wider and Zawinul seems to continue to carry the torch. There hasn't been anyone to come along and widen the horizons even more.

 

Is it a result of the record companies bottom line? Jazz having a smaller part of the music buying public mind? And therefore economic/artistic clout. Too much competition in the musical marketplace?

 

RobT

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by RobT:

What are the opinions on people like Diana Krall, Marcus Roberts, Cyrus Chestnut, Keiko Matsui (I think I have that name right), Lyle Mays. More smooth jazz imposters? Revisionist retreads? New Age noodlers? Or something else.

 

Keiko Matsui stands apart from the other names on the list as the only "smooth jazz" lightweight. Lyle Mays has one foot firmly planted in a Bill Evans tradition, the other in a Zawinul school of inventive textural synth work. Diana Krall has been packaged like crazy as a female Harry Connick Jr., but like Connick, she has legit piano chops that aren't always apparent and insightful vocal phrasing.

 

Roberts, Chestnut, along with Jacky Terrason, Geri Allen, Fred Hersch, etc., are among the embarrassment of riches in traditional jazz piano that came out of the '80s and '90s. On the topic of "the little Jarretts", I hear more of McCoy as an influence on many of these players.

 

There's an unmentioned contemporary pianist in which I hear a ton of Keith Jarrett influence: Bruce Hornsby.

[RobT]

Originally posted by mzeger:

Roberts, Chestnut, along with Jacky Terrason, Geri Allen, Fred Hersch, etc., are among the embarrassment of riches in traditional jazz piano that came out of the '80s and '90s.

 

Agree with you on the Diana Krall packaging. I think she looks better sitting in front of a piano than Connick though

 

Geri Allen is one of my favorites too. She and Regina Carter (violinist) used to play in a smokin' all female jazz band in Detroit during the 80's. Shame they had to leave to get some props.