Goldberg Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Where going to settle this once and for all, Dave... If you've been following the heated debates going on in the "wither the football jokes" thread, you know of the recent clashes between football fans, and American football fans. Well, I've started a thread so all of the Football(uh, soccer if you prefer)fans can get together and pound American Football fans. Go ahead and read through the football joke thread to get some backstory-it's been pretty much one-on-one with Dave and I...I need back up. Do you support the strategic game of Football(soccer...)or the mindless, wimpy, girly, snore-inducing game of Football(the description says it all). Speak now! Which is the better of the two? ARRRRRRRR! "Bach is ever new"-Glenn Gould Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mats Olsson. Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 1. From my view as spectator: Soccer is boring at best 2. Violence among soccer "fans" is quite common, post-game rioting is not a very pretty sight Go on, flame me... /Mats http://www.lexam.net/peter/carnut/man.gif What do we want? Procrastination! When do we want it? Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbox Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Striker1080, I'm with Dave. You don't get it, but that's okay. What doesn't make sense is slamming something you don't understand. My guess is you're looking for support in the wrong place, because I believe most of us here are Americans (70% - 80%?). We grew up playing this sport you hate. We have the appreciation of football as players and not just as spectators. It's been more fun than you know... Enthusiasm powers the world. Craig Anderton's Archiving Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbyjoe Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 well i'm just gonna throw a spanner in the works for you. in aussie land (whoch does have 20 million people so it's not 'small'), we play a few footy games - rugby league, rugby union, and aussie rules. both rugby games, as i'm sure you know, are big hit-em-ups. aussie rules is the most active game i've seen though - you have to be a real athlete. as for soccer, it is gaining momentum, but not extremely popular like cricket. as for american football, the only thing we see of it is the occasional report on the late night sports show. in MY opinion, american football seems very.... well ....whenever i have seen it, it's like they run with the ball for about 3 seconds, stop, huddle for about 3 minutes, and it continues. occasionally someone will kick the ball. as for those sissy costumes and shoulder pads, how about you's come over here and see how rugby players do it - no lovely soft padding for when you get smashed. and rugby players are just as big and stocky. all of this has been in fun. i'm not calling any of you sissies. but none of you have seen the light yet, until you learn how to play the best game of all.......... CRICKET. "shane warne give us a wave........" pray for peace, kendall "Consider how much coffee you're drinking - it's probably not enough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbyjoe Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 oh and another thing - those very few that play american footy over here, play it at the same time as in america, i.e. they play it here in SUMMER - HOT. VERY HOT. i don't want to run around a park wearing a chunky helmet and shoulder pads though i will stand on a big open field waiting to take the best catch you've seen all summer, or to perhaps bowl a leg spin as good as shane warne. "steve waugh give us a wave......" k "Consider how much coffee you're drinking - it's probably not enough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbox Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 FWIW, people do occasionally die or become paralyzed for life while playing our "sissy" game... Enthusiasm powers the world. Craig Anderton's Archiving Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie red Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 I've played many, many years of organized soccer (or football) and played college-level football (American style) as a kicker, and must say that the characterization of American football as a "mindless sport" is ridiculous. Even as a kicker I spent several hours each week familiarizing myself with the special teams schemes of the opponents, but that's nothing compared to what my teamates had to do in preparation. It cannot be overemphasized how complex American football can be, especially as the level of competition increases. Once in the NFL, many players fail simply because they're not able to understand or adjust to the complexities of the game. For example, an offensive lineman (all they have to do is move their bodies forward and block right?) must factor many things into consideration for each down. What play is the offense running (of which there are hundreds of possibilities), what's the offensive formation (many, many possibilities), what's the defensive formation (many, many possibilities)? Each lineman must know exactly who they're supposed to block, but also know exactly what each other player on the offense is doing (especially the otehr lineman). And of course, they need to be prepared for an audible where the blocking scheme can change seconds before the snap. Doing this for four quarters is very difficult as football is both physically and mentally draining. One slip-up can cost your team the game. I don't mean to suggest anyone should prefer one over the other - I personally appreciate both for their own reasons. But to discredit American football because it's not as intellectually challenging as other sports only shows naivete of the game. [ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: johnnie red ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie red Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 I'll also add that I've played soccer in Europe. Soccer in America is a sissy sport, it only gets nasty once you travel abroad. Regarding rugby w/o pads vs. football w/ pads: the pads only mean much harder hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Where going to settle this once and for all, Dave... Yaaaawnnnn.... Do you support the strategic game of Football(soccer...)or the mindless, wimpy, girly, snore-inducing game of Football(the description says it all). Speak now! Which is the better of the two? ARRRRRRRR! ...sigh...I love people in search of validation.... Striker....you poor thing... It's okay that you like soccer. Really it is. We still like you. You really don't have to try and get others to back you up that one game is "better" than another. They're both fine sports. It's okay...we don't think that much less of you because you like soccer. Personally, I'm a tad embarrassed for you that you feel such a need to try and solicit backup in order to score points here...however, do what you must... dB Never wrestle with a soccer fan - you both get dirty, and the soccer fan likes it... ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Originally posted by johnnie red: But to discredit American football because it's not as intellectually challenging as other sports only shows naivete of the game. Exactly my point. Well said, sir. Thank you. Go Raiders! dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 This is the stupidest thread I've ever seen. Which sport is best? That's like asking whether blondes are better than brunettes. Whether beans are better than corn. Whether rock is better than jazz. There's no way to DETERMINE something that's a matter of taste. Futball/Soccer is a relatively easy game to figure out. The players pass the ball from one to another from their positions on the playing field in an effort to try to get within striking distance of the goal. The other team tries to steal the ball to keep you from getting to where you want to go. Fine. It's fun. The guys are in really good shape (esp. the ones who have to play at high altitude!). It's very popular worldwide in part because it's not an expensive game to field. I personally find soccer to be boring, but not as boring as golf or bowling or NASCAR or baseball, all of which are very popular sports in my native land. The only thing that really bothers me about soccer is the sudden death free kicks at the end of a tied match. Rugby is a great game. I've watched several matches on television, and I always get a kick out of it. Those guys are very TOUGH; I'll be the first to admit it. But it's impossible to compare it to American Football, because as it was noted, the "armor" that the Americans wear allow them to collide with much greater speed and force. Both are rough sports played by tough men, but the pads/no pads argument is pointless. Aussie Rules Football looks very interesting, but we don't have many opportunities to watch it over here. I wish I understood it better, because it looks like a fun game to watch. American Football is a VERY complex game that looks like chaos if you don't understand what's going on. You need to watch six to eight games all the way through with people who can explain it to you before you'll really appreciate it. If you don't have the opportunity to do so, that's cool. Liking American football is not a commandment from heaven. The good news is that young children can figure it out with enough exposure and guidance, so there's hope for anyone who's willing to try. American football is like the be bop of sports. If all you know is Top 40, be bop is going to sound like noise unless you invest some time and effort in learning the principals of improvisation, chord substutions and extensions, chromaticism, etc. Regarding weather, it's very hot when the American football season starts, and in cities like Miami, Jacksonville, Dallas, Tampa Bay, New Orleans, and Atlanta, that hot weather can last for months. One prominent player died this year of heat stroke during a preseason workout. American Football is also played in bitter winter cold. Weather is one of the elements of the game. [ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: dansouth@yahoo.com ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio7 Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: Exactly my point. Well said, sir. Thank you. Go Raiders! dB Mr Bryce, Here in UK, American football as it is known, barely gets a mention at all - either on TV or News papers. What i have seen of it though in "Best of TV Funny clips" etc, is a load of pansies with Joan Collins "Dynasty" reject shoulder pads, and a load of girls jumping up and down....up and down in the Back ground.....and there are some Cheeer leaders too Soccer rules as the most popular sport on the 'Kin planet...PERIOD and ENGLAND will beat sweden (sorry MATS ) in there group to win it, then go on to the Finals and Lift the worlds most Famous TROPHY... T.H.E W.O.R.L.D. C.U.P [ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Antonio7 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Smedberg Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Originally posted by Antonio7: and ENGLAND will beat sweden (sorry MATS ) in there group to win it, then go on to the Finals and Lift the worlds most Famous TROPHY... T.H.E W.O.R.L.D. C.U.P Maybe you don't know that England nowdays are considered as the second team of the Swedish nation. England wouldn't be in it if it wasn't for the Swede, Sven-Göran Eriksson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthplanet Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 According to Ripley's Believe Or Not, there is a tribe that used to play rugby with a human skull. Aye; now there's a sport Michael --------------------------------------------------------------" It is better to give than recieve. But is it better to pass than recieve? Aye, there's the rub..." Q:What do you call a truck with nothing in the bed,nothing on the hitch, and room for more than three people in the cab? A:"A car".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Originally posted by jimbyjoe: i'm not calling any of you sissies. but none of you have seen the light yet, until you learn how to play the best game of all.......... CRICKET. kendall I went to England in 1978 with my high school team to play soccer, and while we were there I tuned into a cricket match on television. Unfortunately, we were only there for three weeks, so I didn't get to see the end of the match. When the match does finally end, would you be so kind as to post the final score. steadyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: ...That's like asking whether blondes are better than brunettes. Brunettes Whether beans are better than corn. Corn Whether rock is better than jazz. Classical I personally find soccer to be boring, but not as boring as golf or bowling or NASCAR... ... or chess, or yoga, or oil painting, or a Nets game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLo Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Is not a matter of who uses pads and helmets or who is bigger and braver to play the sport, is who's smarter as far as Soccer, well you don't need to be smart to kick the ball around, SOCCER SUCKS!!! If you think American Fotball is a sissie sport, our players don't fake injuries and lay down on the field holding an arm or a leg until the referee gives a yellow or red card to the opponent, now that's what ladies do!! I'm mexican american, more mexican than american but I still like American Football,SOCCER SUCKS nad is boring, and you fans are violent and crazy, if you only knew, how smart a American Football player needs to be in order to play the game, you'll be amazed!! [ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: ViLo ] Jesus Is Coming, Make Music, Get Ready! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Originally posted by Antonio7: Here in UK, American football as it is known, barely gets a mention at all - either on TV or News papers. What i have seen of it though in "Best of TV Funny clips" etc, is a load of pansies with Joan Collins "Dynasty" reject shoulder pads, and a load of girls jumping up and down....up and down in the Back ground.....and there are some Cheeer leaders too Soccer rules as the most popular sport on the 'Kin planet...PERIOD Excellent. Another in a series of well-informed opinions... Hey, Antonio - perhaps if you, like Mr. Striker, had any idea of what our game was about and how it was played, your opinion might be worth something. Instead, it's just the ignorant saber-rattling of another uninformed soccer fan. We know how your game is played. Do you know how ours is played? I'll wager that you haven't got a clue. Perhaps you might like to read this thread before you proceed much further. ...and, regarding the popularity of soccer (as I have previously noted) - McDonald's is very popular as well. That doesn't mean it's good. It's just cheap, and sort of serves a need. DanSouth has also made a similar observation. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Silly thread... The name "football" seems to be the only solid basis of comparison of the two games. They really belong to different species of games entirely. Futbol is the architypal continuous action, fluid, goal-driven game of the same general dynamic as basketball, hockey, lacrosse. American football is unique, I think. I can't seem to come up with any other sport that is as discretely episodic, unfolding in the self-contained unit called the play, or the down, to distinguish it from the set plays that the other sports employ. Also, no other game is as acutely territorial as American footbal--no field that I can think has as fine a set of divisions as the football field and measurements that are so integral to the rules. It is that very fact of football--that it occurs in discrete 3 - 5 second "deployments" or even "campaigns" that makes it the most strategically complex of all sports, IMO. With basketball or soccerball, sandlot games bear a substantial resemblance to what happens at the pro level. Not so in football, which depends so completely on the team and its strategy. This is why the Pro Bowl sucks. To unaccusotmed eyes, it must look like little more than pile driving, accompanied by the indecipherable jargon of the commentators. It has its universal aesthetic moments, of course, provided by the likes of Lynn Swan. Ballet amidst blitzkrieg. But the insider's beauty is that it is all about team execution. If you drew a team sport continuum, and on one end you wrote "individual-focused" and the other "team-focused," football would be all the way on the "team" extreme. It is the game in which the great individual has little impact but for the support of copmpetent and well-coordinated teammates. On the other end of the continuum is baseball, the most individual of the team sports, boiling down to a series of individual confrontations. In baseball, the best player in the world can be on the worst team and still be recognizable as the best player in the world. Can anyone say A-Rod? Ironically, it is in baseball that the individual is structurally limited in the influence he can have on a game's outcome. In every other sport you "go to" your best players at the end of close games. In baseball, the best and the worst players get 4 to 5 cracks at influening the outcome of the game, in strict sequence. Basketabll is right in the middle of the continuum, to my tastes involving the perfect balance of team and individual dynamics-- and most like jazz--the ensemble and the soloist in a fluid, improvised setting. Treatise/Tirade off. BTW, Steadyb's cricket joke was the funniest thing I've read all day. To me, that game is opaque. John Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: ... but not as boring as golf Oh Dan, you used to be my Idol Golf IS about strategy. I don't like ANY sports. However, when you get into the strategics, every single sport -even soccer- become very interesting. A friend of mine explained me once what was American Football about... and I enojoyed a SuperBowl like crazy. I do also enjoy Soccer (pronounced SUCKER ) WorldCup Games... Ok... I find NASCAR very boring... Músico, Productor, Ingeniero, Tecnólogo Senior Product Manager, América Latina y Caribe - PreSonus at Fender Musical Instruments Company Instagram: guslozada Facebook: Lozada - Música y Tecnología www.guslozada.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mats Olsson. Posted December 17, 2001 Share Posted December 17, 2001 The movie BaseKETball, did anyone of you cats see it perhaps? /Mats http://www.lexam.net/peter/carnut/man.gif What do we want? Procrastination! When do we want it? Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coren Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Originally posted by tenthplanet: According to Ripley's Believe Or Not, there is a tribe that used to play rugby with a human skull. Aye; now there's a sport Michael im not to sure, i havent read it in awhile, but i think it was the mayans or the mexicans that did something similar.. it was an involuntary sport (like the roman colloseum) "inmates" where placed in a long narrow field (20' by 60'), one of them lost a head somehow (i forget).. had some intresting rules... i used to play rugby... my only experiance with football and soccer was in school, i dont watch sports.. rugby was a fun game with stratagy on one half and your teams speed/power on the other when i first played football i found it was annoying that it stoped so often, but playing the game itself is fun and i soon forgot about that. (indeed; you start to see why its nessasary) soccer is more fluid to me, which is why i like it.. the feel of running down the field with the ball is very reminisant of water. playing it is not boring in the least. as for rugby/football pads/no pads, you dont hit any harder in football than you do in rugby, if your not hitting hard in rugby then your not giving 100% HOWEVER, in rugby you hit the legs to bring them down... hitting about the neck is illegal. so i can see that the pads are not cause your hitting harder, but rather falling harder, and usaully with 4 huge guys on ya ive seen equal injurys in both but if your point of playing the game is to see injurys i suggest taking up skateboarding or cliff diving they are all fun, its like getting an expresso or a cappacino.. all subjective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbox Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: If you drew a team sport continuum, and on one end you wrote "individual-focused" and the other "team-focused," football would be all the way on the "team" extreme. It is the game in which the great individual has little impact but for the support of copmpetent and well-coordinated teammates. John, you just summed up one of the main reasons why (American) football is my favorite sport. Who is the greatest basketball player ever? Michael Jordan...Best baseball player? Babe Ruth...Best soccer player? Pele...Best hockey player? Wayne Gretzky. Even though some wouldn't agree with these answers, I'm sure that most would agree that these are valid questions. Who is the greatest (American) football player ever? That question is so absurd, it never even gets raised! The only valid debates are about who is the greatest quarterback, defensive tackle, wide receiver, etc. This is the epitome of a team sport! Enthusiasm powers the world. Craig Anderton's Archiving Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botch. Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Speaking strictly "off-field", rugby players sing great ribald songs whilst drinking suds and get reported to Social Actions (rugby is very popular in the U.S. Air Force), while football players shovel snow up de nose and get turned in to the police. Botch "Eccentric language often is symptomatic of peculiar thinking" - George Will www.puddlestone.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Geoff, I totally agree, though for the same reason I sort of prefer basketball because it has a little more leeway for individual expression and yet great team chemistry is critical as well. I should say I prefer basketball in theory, because the NBA season has lots of flaws--way too many games that mean nothng and too many playoff teams. In fact for the top 12-14 teams in the league the regular season is nothing but stat compiling and jockeying for playoff position. The only playoff races are between the 8 seeds that are going to be knocked out in the first round anyway. In this regard, football has it the best. Practically every game is meaningful (Is Detroit playing Buffalo this year?). So I can't work up enough enthusiasm to watch regular season basketball all season, but Football is a given, a fixture. BTW, you shouldn't have said that bit about Jordan being the best basketball player. At this very moment, Steadyb is deciding whether to "go there" again, and I, for one, don't think he can resist... Originally posted by soapbox: John, you just summed up one of the main reasons why (American) football is my favorite sport. Who is the greatest basketball player ever? Michael Jordan...Best baseball player? Babe Ruth...Best soccer player? Pele...Best hockey player? Wayne Gretzky. Even though some wouldn't agree with these answers, I'm sure that most would agree that these are valid questions. Who is the greatest (American) football player ever? That question is so absurd, it never even gets raised! The only valid debates are about who is the greatest quarterback, defensive tackle, wide receiver, etc. This is the epitome of a team sport! Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: BTW, you shouldn't have said that bit about Jordan being the best basketball player. At this very moment, Steadyb is deciding whether to "go there" again, and I, for one, don't think he can resist... Nor do I. Here we go again... It'll start with him ragging on DanSouth by referring to MJ as "Jorday"... ...then the whole Kobe Kobe Kobe thing... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: BTW, you shouldn't have said that bit about Jordan being the best basketball player. At this very moment, Steadyb is deciding whether to "go there" again, and I, for one, don't think he can resist... (...after falling ouy of my chair, laughing) That was awesome!!! As I was typing my reply to soapbox, I felt compelled to come "back" and read the post again before sending, and Magpel you were reading my mind. Of course everyone knows Magic Johnson was the greatest basketball player of all time, winning the NBA title and finals MVP his rookie year. It didn't take him 6 or more years to win it all, and not against watered down competition. But anyway, Mike is the greatest Gatorade/Nike/Hanes/MCI huckster of all time, although he'd better hope Carrot Top doesn't decide to pitch underwear and shoes anytime soon. steadyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: Nor do I. Here we go again... It'll start with him ragging on DanSouth by referring to MJ as "Jorday"... ...then the whole Kobe Kobe Kobe thing... dB You guys type too fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldberg Posted December 18, 2001 Author Share Posted December 18, 2001 I left this thing blank for around 12 hours or so, and I come back to a bunch of people starting out with "silly thread" and the like. Amazingly enough, they continue on the repeat themselves over and over again. And some of you actually seem to be taking it seriously. But, also amazing is how visciously you Americans defend your sport. I never claimed to "hate" A.F. And I didn't claim it to be, shall we say, "unstrategic"...ok, maybe I implied it by calling it mindless...But, let me take that back by saying this. Every sport has it's distinctive strategies(who said basketball? shut up...)that the common observer will not grasp onto immediately. Only a true fan will be able to explain such strategies. Being from a different country I am more able to appreciate the fine game of football. But you guys, who only see live football games if it happens to be an MLS game, which...sucks. Yes, I agree, American Soccer is a wimpy game. And I understand why the Americans aren't "into" it. I have decided to draw back my vote because, as someone else pointed out, I am extremely outnumbered by native Americans. For the Aussie, thanks for the note on rugby. It happens to be a tougher game than American Football, and it, too, is very strategic but mind-boggling to the common spectator. Thank you. "Bach is ever new"-Glenn Gould Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 It happens to be a tougher game than American Football This is why you keep getting pounded, Striker. You have no idea if Rugby is "tougher" than American Football. You know that to an ignorant outsider (who for some reason badly wants to dislike a great game), it looks tougher. Plus, your ego won't allow you to admit that you might have no clue what you're talking about. The mere premise of starting a thread questioning which sport is "better" is just foolish, and guaranteed to be subject to ridicule. Neither is "better", you silly person. They're "different". I never claimed to "hate" A.F. Oh, please. You have made it quite clear that (even though you have a complete lack of understanding of our game) you dislike it. Admittedly, you never used the actual word "hate", but you have hurled quite a few other offensive epithets and taunts regarding your lack of respect for our game - do I really need to copy and paste four or five of them in a row? But, let me take that back by saying this. Every sport has it's distinctive strategies(who said basketball? shut up...) Once again - you are uninformed. What a surprise. Basketball is a very strategic game - have you ever tried playing it? It is BASICALLY THE SAME GAME AS SOCCER, except with less players, a different ball, a smaller goal, an indoor court and no goaltender. SAME GAME. Ball goes upfield (court), ball goes downfield (court). Get ball in goal. Repeat. Same as field hockey, ice hockey, LaCrosse and your beloved Soccer. Deny it all you want - you're just plain wrong. As a matter of fact, I'll even go so far as to say that I think that basketball is a MUCH more exciting sport than soccer, and requires QUITE a bit more skill, if for no other reason than the goal is much smaller and you can use your hands. BTW - I have never seen an MLS game. All of the soccer that I have watched has been from Europe or South America. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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