You CAN believe this!

[Bucktunes]

If you want to know what the REAL Christian leaders are saying about the terrorist attacks, and what we should do about it, I hope you saw the memorial services today and this past Friday. Billy Graham and Cardinal Eegan,(spelling?) both major church leaders, both with nearly identical answers, even though it's unlikely they collaborated.

 

I wasn't taping it, so I don't have direct quotes, but they both agree these acts were NOT God's doing. These atrocities were the product of evil, carried out by evil people with totally malicious intentions. There is NO religion that believes in God and condones murder, especially mass murder of innocent people. So why was this permitted to happen? Because humanity is given the gift of free will. The uninhibited choice to do the right thing, or not. What merit would there be in doing good if it was only because you had no choice?

 

They both agree that our reaction must be to find and eradicate the evil, not with prejudice and vengeance, but with wisdom and stern resolve. We won't be responding with blind annihilation as so many people here are afraid of. If that was the case, we would already be doing it. Colin Powell and company have stated numerous times that this will not be quick or easy.

 

Both church leaders also pointed out how hideous acts like this tend to bring out the best in our country, and our society. So where's God during all this? Look at the rescue workers, police, firefighters, medical people who have worked tirelessly and selflessly to help. THAT'S God's work! Look at the overflowing blood supply from American citizens that has poured in, and the millions in charity donations. Look at the passengers on the flight that crashed in the woods in Pennsylvania. They gave their lives to save others.

 

This country has seen a rare bonding of total strangers in the wake of this terror, and bravery in the face of danger. THAT'S how we're going to win this. Like the song says; united we stand, divided we fall. We stay together and keep God on our team, we can't lose! God bless America!!

 

Peace all,

Steve

[Pim]

Don't ask a God to bless just one nation.

We live on one planet. Terror knows no borders. So does respect.

 

Bring to trial all war criminals. To all others on Planet Earth: Live long and prosper.

 

 

------------------

-- Pim --

 

www.dancewave.nl

[Bucktunes]

Originally posted by pim@dancewave.nl:

Don't ask a God to bless just one nation.

 

Well, I didn't mean the U.S.A. exclusively. I was just quoting a popular patriotic song. Like He really needs MY permission to bless anyone, anyway! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Peace all,

Steve

[Pim]

I would like to quote John Lennon's "Imagine"...

 

...[]

 

------------------

-- Pim --

 

www.dancewave.nl

[Slowly]

Originally posted by pim@dancewave.nl:

I would like to quote John Lennon's "Imagine"...

 

...[]

 

 

I`ve tried thousands of times to "Imagine", and I can`t. There is a presence here higher than man. Casey

[alcohol_]

That presence that is higher than mere man is much higher than his imagination.

 

God is man's imagination, that is why everyman who believes in God believes that God is on his side, because God is merely a product of his imagination and therefore a subjective entity, a fiction. That is why for everyman who believes in God you have a different description of the qualities of His divinity, because the idea of God is limited by that man's imagination.

 

If you really wanted to reach higher than man and get closer to the truth you'd recognize that God is merely a creation of man's imagination and creation is so much more than your God could be.

 

Because God is merely man's imagination,and therefore less than what the true Creator's possibilities are, every attempt at the description of God becomes a perversion of His reality. It is better and more moral not to believe in God because you recognize the limits of yourself and your imagination and avoid the perversion of doing what you cannot - give Divine explanations. The rejection of the belief in God is a superior morality, because that person recognizes himself as the source of his moral decisions and not some imagined metaphysical enitiy.

 

Joe

[Slowly]

Originally posted by Joe Egan:

That presence that is higher than mere man is much higher than his imagination.

 

God is man's imagination, that is why everyman who believes in God believes that God is on his side, because God is merely a product of his imagination and therefore a subjective entity, a fiction. That is why for everyman who believes in God you have a different description of the qualities of His divinity, because the idea of God is limited by that man's imagination.

 

If you really wanted to reach higher than man and get closer to the truth you'd recognize that God is merely a creation of man's imagination and creation is so much more than your God could be.

 

Because God is merely man's imagination,and therefore less than what the true Creator's possibilities are, every attempt at the description of God becomes a perversion of His reality. It is better and more moral not to believe in God because you recognize the limits of yourself and your imagination and avoid the perversion of doing what you cannot - give Divine explanations. The rejection of the belief in God is a superior morality, because that person recognizes himself as the source of his moral decisions and not some imagined metaphysical enitiy.

 

Joe

 

John Lennon sang: Imagine there is no God. Well I can`t. I can`t imagine 'man' as the highest power is existence. There is too much perfection until you get to man. Casey

[alcohol_]

Man isn't the highest power. The highest power lies beyond man, his understanding and his imagination.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Joe Egan:

That presence that is higher than mere man is much higher than his imagination.

 

God is man's imagination, that is why everyman who believes in God believes that God is on his side, because God is merely a product of his imagination and therefore a subjective entity, a fiction. That is why for everyman who believes in God you have a different description of the qualities of His divinity, because the idea of God is limited by that man's imagination.

 

If you really wanted to reach higher than man and get closer to the truth you'd recognize that God is merely a creation of man's imagination and creation is so much more than your God could be.

 

Because God is merely man's imagination,and therefore less than what the true Creator's possibilities are, every attempt at the description of God becomes a perversion of His reality. It is better and more moral not to believe in God because you recognize the limits of yourself and your imagination and avoid the perversion of doing what you cannot - give Divine explanations. The rejection of the belief in God is a superior morality, because that person recognizes himself as the source of his moral decisions and not some imagined metaphysical enitiy.

snip

Man isn't the highest power. The highest power lies beyond man, his understanding and his imagination.

 

Right on, Joe.

 

I couldn't have said it better if I had tried.

 

Thank you.

 

dB

[Slowly]

Originally posted by Joe Egan:

Man isn't the highest power. The highest power lies beyond man, his understanding and his imagination.

 

That contradicts itself so astutely there is no argument. Casey

[alcohol_]

Originally posted by kcbass:

That contradicts itself so astutely there is no argument. Casey

 

Maybe you could be helpful and point out the contradiction?

 

Joe

[Rod S]

Originally posted by kcbass:

That contradicts itself so astutely there is no argument. Casey

 

 

Actually, I don't think it does. This is exactly what I think.

 

4 years ago I had to go through first communion and all the other stuff (I had only been baptized) since my ex(wife) wanted to marry in a catholic church. I took the opportunity and tried to learn as much as could about it, and managed to annoy all the priests and nuns. My conclusion was merely that they didn't understand it either, were often contradictory, the bible can be interpreted any way you want it to, for good or bad, and didn't like questions that go too deep. Going to church didn't help me getting closer to a higher spiruality any more than going to an AA meeting (meaning - most people go to church as a support group). I also found out most people I met were 'cafeteria buffet' catholics. They picked only the things that they wanted to believe. And they strongly disagreed on other things, even thinking some of them were purely absurd. Sorry, not for me.

 

When I asked the priests if we could hold my wedding on an outside location, he got furious and told me that god was in the church and that is where I had to get married. I told him I had learned that god was everywhere; so according to that I can get married anywhere and have his blessing. He just about kicked me out of the church. Becuase I didn't follow his interpretation.

 

I am a spiritual person. I just don't think most religions know what they are taking about - catholicism is particular - I gotta find some time to study budhism and some of the religions in the future. I was talking to a chinese friend and was fascinated by some of his beliefs. Catholicisim in particular seems to follow what someone came up with years ago and have adapted throughout the years when they realized how ridiculous some of it was.

 

To say it's god's work that people are helping diminished people, IMHO. I help people out because it's what i think should be done, and I believe on doing to/for others what I think/hope they should do for me, not because it's the doing of higher being. I don't like the way a lot of religions squashes individuality. I have more faith in each person than being just a puppet of higher being (OK, I'm exaggerating, just trying to illustrate a point).

 

Having lived in 3rd world countries, I find it disgusting how religion is used to manipulate people and control the masses.

 

Our efforts of understanding whatever higher being may be is actually offensive, due to our limited imaginations.

 

Believe in what you want, but if you tell me that the fact that I went to donate blood is god's doing I'm offended.

[Slowly]

Originally posted by Rod CA:

Actually, I don't think it does. This is exactly what I think.

 

4 years ago I had to go through first communion and all the other stuff (I had only been baptized) since my ex(wife) wanted to marry in a catholic church. I took the opportunity and tried to learn as much as could about it, and managed to annoy all the priests and nuns. My conclusion was merely that they didn't understand it either, were often contradictory, the bible can be interpreted any way you want it to, for good or bad, and didn't like questions that go too deep. Going to church didn't help me getting closer to a higher spiruality any more than going to an AA meeting (meaning - most people go to church as a support group). I also found out most people I met were 'cafeteria buffet' catholics. They picked only the things that they wanted to believe. And they strongly disagreed on other things, even thinking some of them were purely absurd. Sorry, not for me.

 

When I asked the priests if we could hold my wedding on an outside location, he got furious and told me that god was in the church and that is where I had to get married. I told him I had learned that god was everywhere; so according to that I can get married anywhere and have his blessing. He just about kicked me out of the church. Becuase I didn't follow his interpretation.

 

I am a spiritual person. I just don't think most religions know what they are taking about - catholicism is particular - I gotta find some time to study budhism and some of the religions in the future. I was talking to a chinese friend and was fascinated by some of his beliefs. Catholicisim in particular seems to follow what someone came up with years ago and have adapted throughout the years when they realized how ridiculous some of it was.

 

To say it's god's work that people are helping diminished people, IMHO. I help people out because it's what i think should be done, and I believe on doing to/for others what I think/hope they should do for me, not because it's the doing of higher being. I don't like the way a lot of religions squashes individuality. I have more faith in each person than being just a puppet of higher being (OK, I'm exaggerating, just trying to illustrate a point).

 

Having lived in 3rd world countries, I find it disgusting how religion is used to manipulate people and control the masses.

 

Our efforts of understanding whatever higher being may be is actually offensive, due to our limited imaginations.

 

Believe in what you want, but if you tell me that the fact that I went to donate blood is god's doing I'm offended.

 

 

Man, Rod,

I know some people can mis-use and mis-understand what instructions are given them. The place where I study religion would have never treated you in that manner. We are taught that the higher power is beyond mans imagination and cant be personified. This power did present itself once as a human and then returned to its natural form. What this form is man is incapable of comprehending. We understand this is a prefect entity and we don't even understand its definition of perfect. We are not capable of the pure love this entity has, or the pure hate. We just strive to come as come as humanly possible to perfection but we know we fail miserably.

We believe this entity left behind a guide book with a set of rules for us to follow. Following these rules does earn us some compassion from the entity.

True, man cant imagine this entity.

True, this entity has foolishness higher than mans knowledge.

True, we have to call it something, God, Allah, Myoho.

True, I believe when we expire, our life force does return to this entity.

Casey

[MusicaL]

Originally posted by Joe Egan:

It is better and more moral not to believe in God because you recognize the limits of yourself and your imagination and avoid the perversion of doing what you cannot - give Divine explanations. The rejection of the belief in God is a superior morality, because that person recognizes himself as the source of his moral decisions and not some imagined metaphysical enitiy.

 

Joe

 

I am confused. How is it superior to reject the belief (hence the existence) of God only because it allows us to recognize our limiations? Why can't you do both. Recoginze your limitations and believe there is a God. I just don't see the superiority of your beliefs! Christianity is based on the belief that we are limited humans. Limited by our ability, imagination, power (or lack thereof), will (or lack thereof) and many other things. . . If we were not limited we would not need God.

[Bucktunes]

Actually, my intention for the opening post here was to simply point out how Jerry Falwell is out of touch with typical Christian beliefs. That, and to give a kind of rebuttal from leaders who I believe are more tuned in to what Christianity is really all about.

 

It seems people here are very polarized on this subject, and I even sense some anti-Christian backlash. So from now on I think I'll save my religious views for the Crosswalk.com forum.

 

Peace all,

Steve

[alcohol_]

Originally posted by tuttorney@hotmail.com:

I am confused. How is it superior to reject the belief (hence the existence) of God only because it allows us to recognize our limiations? Why can't you do both. Recoginze your limitations and believe there is a God. I just don't see the superiority of your beliefs! Christianity is based on the belief that we are limited humans. Limited by our ability, imagination, power (or lack thereof), will (or lack thereof) and many other things. . . If we were not limited we would not need God.

 

By recognizing your actions and beliefs are a consequence of your own decisions and desires instead of that of a diety, you become more truthful.

[soapbox]

Steve, I hope you don't mind, but I copied and pasted your first post in this thread in response to the following e-mail:

 

<< Billy Graham's daughter being interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "how could God let something like this happen?" and Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response, she said :

 

"I believe that God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are. But for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives, and being the gentleman that he is, I believe that he has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us his blessing and his protection if we demand he leave us alone?" >>

 

I really appreciate the sentiment with which you wrote, and I felt that the e-mail I received was one more case of religious leaders telling us we deserved this.

 

I think it's just as important to realize that Falwell represents the average Christian about as well as the terrorists represent the average Muslim. Yes, there will be backlashes against outrageous statements as well as outrageous acts. However, I hope that the backlashes will be limited and appropriate.

 

Atheists are appropriately angry because they've been told by Falwell and others that they helped bring the wrath of God on our country. In the meantime, the president is waving God around like the flag and there is increased pressure to conform (as if born again Christians don't pressure atheists enough already).

 

In turn, there are many Christians who bear the brunt of the atheists' anger who don't deserve it. Christians, restrained from doing their thing in certain places, often feel like second class citizens and are letting out these feelings now.

 

I'm proud of our country's religious tolerance. However, our ideals sometimes exceed our abilities to live up to them. Tolerance begins with respect and understanding. I agree, "united we stand, divided we fall." Each of you has my respect and understanding.

[MusicaL]

Originally posted by Joe Egan:

By recognizing your actions and beliefs are a consequence of your own decisions and desires instead of that of a diety, you become more truthful.

 

 

Boy, I sure hope that atheists are not the only ones that take responsibility for their actions. . . http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Although I have to say, I am not sure what it is you are stating in your post, and how that may show that being an atheist is morally superior. Does christianity teach that God is the actor and not us? Hardly! Does it not hold us accountable for our actions, both good and bad?

 

Lastly, Joe, how can you reject the existence of God when in the same sentence you state that He is beyond our imagination (and I agree with that statement). We cannot completely conceive of God, but that doesn't mean we cannot understand some if not much of his nature on some level.

 

Soapbox, I appreciate what you said in your post very much!!

 

Albert

[Bucktunes]

Originally posted by soapbox:

Steve, I hope you don't mind, but I copied and pasted your first post in this thread

 

No problem, help yourself! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif I just hope I got the quotes right.

 

I really appreciate the sentiment with which you wrote, and I felt that the e-mail I received was one more case of religious leaders telling us we deserved this.

 

Well, thanks for getting what I meant! I was starting to think I'd wasted my time. As for the Anne Graham quote, are you sure that was in response to the terrorist acts? It sounds more like something I heard shortly after the Colombine High massacre. It would make a lot more sense in that context, too.

 

Peace all,

Steve

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by SWBuck1074@aol.com on 09-23-2001 at 06:18 AM

[soapbox]

Originally posted by SWBuck1074@aol.com:

As for the Anne Graham quote, are you sure that was in response to the terrorist acts? It sounds more like something I heard shortly after the Colombine High massacre. It would make a lot more sense in that context, too.

 

Frankly, I have no idea when she said what was attributed to her or even if she said it at all. However, it is being circulated in the context of current events.

 

Peace,

Geoff

[alcohol_]

Originally posted by tuttorney@hotmail.com:

Boy, I sure hope that atheists are not the only ones that take responsibility for their actions. . . http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Terrorist usually act in the name of God, God's will, or some other idea that is supposedly greater than themselves, when they are essentially acting out on their individual desires. Ascribing one's values beyond yourself is a negation of responsibility. Whenever someone says they are doing because it is the wish of God they have negated their responsibility and are untruthful.

 

Although I have to say, I am not sure what it is you are stating in your post, and how that may show that being an atheist is morally superior. Does christianity teach that God is the actor and not us? Hardly! Does it not hold us accountable for our actions, both good and bad?

 

Yes, that's true, then by Christianity's own teaching, doing something because it is God's will, or because God commands is wrong, because people don't directly know God here on earth and by the falliblity of our nature we can misinterpret God's commands. So, I really don't have a problem saying that an athiests isn't necessarily morally superior, just superior in practice whenever actions and values are cited in God's name.

 

Lastly, Joe, how can you reject the existence of God when in the same sentence you state that He is beyond our imagination (and I agree with that statement). We cannot completely conceive of God, but that doesn't mean we cannot understand some if not much of his nature on some level.

 

Firstly, I reject the idea of revelation. Then for me all attempts of describing God are acts of imagination and therefore of our own creation and subject to our own fallibility. If there is a God, I believe that you could understand His nature ownly in a non metaphysical manner, by observation of physical phenomena, by psychological studies and the rejection of metaphysical speculations; unless He revealed Himself in the manner with which we recognize truths, that is through a process of validation. God has not revealed Himself in a manner that can be validated outside of Faith, so for me He exist merely as a product of man's imagination.

 

Joe

[MusicaL]

Joe

 

I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I think that everything you say is well thought out. We just happen to disagree... I think that whomever does anything in the name of God or anyone else is ultimately responsible for their actions. (whether or not God condones it).

 

Also, whether or not you accept revelation, God can be seen from creation itself. We don't need to go much beyond our own existence to realize there is a God. We hardly need any imagination for that..

 

I'm out

 

Albert

[Rod S]

Originally posted by kcbass:

Man, Rod,

I know some people can mis-use and mis-understand what instructions are given them. The place where I study religion would have never treated you in that manner. We are taught that the higher power is beyond mans imagination and cant be personified. This power did present itself once as a human and then returned to its natural form. What this form is man is incapable of comprehending. We understand this is a prefect entity and we don't even understand its definition of perfect. We are not capable of the pure love this entity has, or the pure hate. We just strive to come as come as humanly possible to perfection but we know we fail miserably.

We believe this entity left behind a guide book with a set of rules for us to follow. Following these rules does earn us some compassion from the entity.

True, man cant imagine this entity.

True, this entity has foolishness higher than mans knowledge.

True, we have to call it something, God, Allah, Myoho.

True, I believe when we expire, our life force does return to this entity.

Casey

 

Casey - thanks for taking the post they way I meant it to be; I felt I was a bit harsh.

 

Yes, my experiences are frustrating, and in a lot of instances, infuriating. Religion is certain 'microcosms' can be a wonderful experience, but in general I've very frustrated about catholicism. Given that I've always interacted with people from different cultures, being in any kind of group whose common ground is a specific religion does not interest me; I'm much more interested in a group with total ethnical/cultural/religous diversity. When I graduated from college, my friends and i threw a big parents bbq, and I believe they were people from about 14 different countries (and a lot of different religions). My two best friends in college where muslim and indian. We both respected each other's opinions, discussed and compared our religious views but didn't go beyond that.

 

And Steve, you open up a can of worms in any of these forums everytime religion is brought up. You can't help it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[soapbox]

Originally posted by Rod CA:

you open up a can of worms in any of these forums everytime religion is brought up. You can't help it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Hey, how about politics? I hear that's a "lite" subject! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Bucktunes]

Originally posted by Rod CA:

And Steve, you open up a can of worms in any of these forums everytime religion is brought up. You can't help it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Yeah, I suppose so. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Ironically, I was trying to COOL the mounting rage from the Falwell quote. I ended up getting pulled into the current instead. I have an uncle who actually enjoys getting into heated discussions so much that he'll assume the unpopular opinion just to get the sparks flying! Maybe I've got a bit of him in me. But hey, it helps build up the post count, right? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Peace all,

Steve

[dansouth]

God has his own order and reason. Trying to perceive God's logic from our perspective is like trying to follow a chess game by watching a single square on the board. However, people assume that things should not happen for inexplicable reasons, so Graham, Eagan, and others in their profession are left with the inenviable task of trying to translate divine logic into human terms. The futility is apparent in their responses.

 

God harvests about 60,000 homo sapiens a day. A one day ten percent surplus is nothing he can't handle.

 

I won't speak for God, but I imagine that he does get a tad upset when someone commits attrocities in his name. I believe that Moses jotted down a commandment that suggested that such use of the Lord's name was definitely not a fast track way to get on his good side. I would like to think that the perpetrators of these acts will have a surprise when they find that the kingdom that they were promised - along with seventy wives apiece - eludes them. But who am I to judge? Vengeance is NOT mine, after all, it's His. All I can do is help to make my current world a little better. If that requires me to assist in debilitating a would be terrorist or two - on an airplane, for example - I'll devote myself to the task at hand. If I fail, then I suppose that's God's way of telling me to get out of His way, that He'll handle things, and that everything will be alright sooner or later.

 

God Bless the Innocent

[Tusker]

Hmmh, by taking god out of our lives, we can become more moral.....

 

Ok, I'll bite on this argument.

 

Take some atheistic terrorists (just for balance), Shining Path, Baader Meeinhof, Red Brigades, Japanese Red Army, Khmer Rouge......

 

They seem quite able to justify BAD actions without a god in their reasoning. Perhaps the "virtue" of expelling god from one's reasoning can only be successful if one also expels the other "intellectual criminals" that have also created the basis for terror (societal good, destiny, virtue, justice, peace, freedom from pain, prevention of terror, etc.)

 

If one is busy expunging God, in order to become more moral and take control of our destiny, let's be morally consistent and throw all the baggage out.

 

If not, what meta-plan will guide our choices in this intellectual spring-cleaning? (Our emotions?) Somebody said it better than I could, some 2500 years ago ""The human heart is most deceitful and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?"

 

Let's not kid ourselves. Neither atheism NOR theism are intrinsically morally superior, nor should moral superiority be a basis for faith...... or unbelief.

 

Peace, http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Jerry

 

This message has been edited by Tusker on 09-25-2001 at 04:37 PM

[soapbox]

Originally posted by SWBuck1074@aol.com:

Well, thanks for getting what I meant! I was starting to think I'd wasted my time.

 

Peace all,

Steve

 

Steve, I've just been through something similar to how this thread went for you in another one of these forums. I thought I was advocating a good cause, and yet I seemed to be stepping on everyone's toes! It sure is frustrating when, no matter what you write, people seem to take it differently than you intended.

 

I may have even offended Dan South and he and I usually get along great! (Update: fortunately, I was wrong about offending Dan)

 

I think everyone's on edge now. Returning to "normal" is going to take some work!

 

BTW, great sig!

 

This message has been edited by soapbox on 09-26-2001 at 03:36 AM

[MusicaL]

The following is what I would term to be an appropriate Christian response to the tragedy of Sept. 11, from Chuck Colson.

 

BreakPoint with Charles Colson

Commentary #010919 - 09/19/2001

Looking for Reasons: Disaster and a Prophetic Voice

 

 

Since the terrorist attacks in New York and

Washington last week, BreakPoint commentaries have

focused on a Christian worldview response. And we've

ignored our schedule -- correctly so. The attacks

were of such magnitude that no one could think of

anything else.

 

Barring additional developments, however, we will

resume our regular BreakPoint schedule tomorrow with

a three-part commentary on a program on evolution

which will be presented next week on PBS. You need to

know what PBS is up to.

 

But, before we leave the topic of the terrorist

attacks, I want to comment on the meaning of a

prophetic response to this national disaster.

Christians are called to speak prophetically to the

world, calling for repentance.

 

The reaction of some evangelicals, however, was,

unfortunately, to place the blame for the attacks on

people in groups who have had a secularizing effect

on American society. I don't associate myself with

those comments. Nor do I believe most American

Christians do. These remarks were ill-timed and

inappropriate -- as those who made them, to their

credit, have acknowledged. They have apologized for

them.

 

While I obviously believe that the forces of

secularism have done immeasurable harm, it is unfair

to associate this tragedy with those forces. Nor can

we lay the blame at the feet of Arabs or Muslims in

general as some are wont to do.

 

The hijackers who crashed airplanes into the World

Trade Center and the Pentagon were Muslim in name

only. Several of them were involved in drunk driving

and visiting strip bars, things no religious Muslim

would ever do. In reality they were anarchists

seeking to destroy, destabilize, and make us slaves

to fear.

 

But, you ask, aren't Christians supposed to be

prophetic within the culture and point out sin? Of

course, but there are biblical guidelines.

 

First, remember the words of the apostle Peter: "It

is time for judgment to begin with the family of God"

[i Peter 4:17]. The sins of Christians and of the

church are our first order of business. Our

materialism, pride, disunity, gossip, and lack of

love are as much a cause for judgment as anyone

else's behavior. To single out the transgressions of

others while ignoring our own is to turn biblical

teaching on its head.

 

Second, the biblical prophets who pronounced God's

judgment upon the people were careful to count

themselves among those being judged. And when

judgment came, they shared in the suffering of the

people. Jeremiah wept and wrote laments when

Jerusalem fell, Ezekiel went into exile, and Moses

threw his lot in with the people when God told him of

his intention to wipe out Israel and begin again with

him. We always speak as fellow sinners -- and should

be the first to repent.

 

Third, if we would be prophetic, we need to speak out

for the right reasons: not to find scapegoats,

condemn, or denounce; but out of love for our

neighbors. Rather than demonizing others, we offer an

alternative to destructive worldviews that have left

many victims -- including the victims of last Tuesday

-- in their wake.

 

Comments that sound self-righteous and point the

finger at others make it hard for ordinary people to

see how the Christian message differs from the

condemning message of the hijackers. Christians

should be measured and balanced in all we say -- a

word of caution for all of us.

[surfjazz]

first, i belive that God is real and alive not in my imagination but in heaven where he holds this universe in his hand. i also am behind billy graham and those who do not see it as Gods punishment. THIS FORUM IS ON KEYBOARDS! LET US STOP OUR PETTY ARGUMENTS AND PLAY SOME MUSIC! IF DISCUSSION WANTS TO CONTINUE...GET EACHOTHERS E-MAILS! and God bless america!!!!!!!!!!!...