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OT - Every day some nut shoots a bunch of people


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The snipers have been caught, but are we REALLY safe? This morning a disgruntled student shot and killed professors at an Arizona university. Over the weekend some kid shot seven neighbors after they complained about his reckless driving. What exactly is the problem here? Is this (the U.S.) a civilized society or a savage wilderness? Why have we as a society failed so miserably at conflict resolution, and what can be done about it? Do our schools need to employ more rigorous socialization courses? Do we need to lock up all guns for a few years until violent behavior can be deprogrammed from the populace? Should we sack all violent media programming? This situation cannot go on unchecked. We claim that the terrorists are trying to destroy our way of life when we ourselves are doing an effective job of destroying it already. When did being shot and killed by an irate student, colleague, or neighbor become part of the American Dream? I'm sick of the senseless loss of life, and I want to see something DONE about it! :mad:

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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It's difficult to determine what to do about it. Better parenting is the best thing, but how does one go about doing that in terms of nationwide influence? The snipers weren't supposed to be able to obtain firearms of any kind (one because he had a restraining order, the other because he's a minor), so that didn't help. If someone wants a gun that darn bad, they're gonna get it anyway, so it comes back to parenting, morality, etc. as the best answer (note that I am not saying it's the only answer). We have a really high rate of arrests per capita, much higher than many other nations. I am at work so cannot cite sources right now -- apologies. However, it's a statistic that would be pretty darn hard to refute, seeing as we do have a really, really high rate of arrest per capita.
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Parenting. I think it mostly comes down to parenting. You can blame the media, or the prevalence of guns in our society, or any number of other things. In my mind, though, it simply comes down to parenting. I'm a strong gun control proponent, but there are plenty of people who own guns, and were raised with guns, who don't commit violent acts against other humans with those guns. There are plenty of people who were raised on violent movies and television programming, who don't commit violent crimes, either. There are many factors you can blame, but the fact is that most folks who were raised by responsible, non-violent parents, will never commit acts of violence against another human. So, what can we do about this parenting problem? I've always thought that there should be some way of enacting a law requiring parents-to-be to apply for a parenting license. But there are many problems with this idea, most of them personal liberties issues. You can't really stop free people from reproducing, at least not in THIS country. And how the hell would we as a society decide who IS fit to be a parent? Obviously this parental license idea is NOT the solution, but I honestly can't think of a better answer to the HUGE problem! :confused: What can we do? :(
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I've met several Europeans who, after visiting the US, seem to have two major impressions: (a) just how BIG the place is, and (b) the amount of violence on TV. I'm not saying that's the answer, but it is an interesting observation. The US is known as the entertainment capitol of the world, exporting our "entertainment" to everyone; that doesn't bode well for the planet, does it? :(

Botch

"Eccentric language often is symptomatic of peculiar thinking" - George Will

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Dan, Our population is increasing exponentially... A percentage of our population is bad... Therefore, every year we add a greater number of bad people to society... if only they would shoot themselves... or each other. You just can't stop it. Be a good influence to your piece of the world for starters... though I'm pretty sure you got that covered.

Kris

My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days...

 

http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04

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Yea, sometimes it makes you wonder if the whole world has gone freakin' nuts. Personally, I think these punks need a good bitch-slappin'. Oh, I forgot, you can't do that anymore; someone may take your kids away if you do. Well, that leaves praying, but you can't do that anymore at school either. Well, maybe we should try to cut down on the violence in music, TV & movies, oh yea, we can't do that either, lest we violate someone's rights. Hmmm, maybe we should not have guns available unless you have a good reason for owning one. Yea, can't do that either; that would be 'unconstitutional'. We have 'protected our freedoms' to the point of danger. We are currently working on 'politically correcting' ourselves right out of a country. Matt
In two days, it won't matter.
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Y'know, the more I think about this, the more frustrated I get. :mad: Our country was founded on the ethics of a bunch of gun-toting Puritans who loved to gather 'round and watch a good lynching together. But, if a woman in that crowd were to do something as innocent as remove her blouse there in public, she would find herself the victim of the next lynching. :eek: It is ridiculous to me that, in our society, sex is taboo, but violence is everyday entertainment. :rolleyes:
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[quote]Originally posted by Count dracuBunny: [b] I think it mostly comes down to parenting. [/b][/quote]Should parenting skills be taught in schools? I've seen some dreadful parents in Wal Mart and other retail establishment. Maybe in addition to factoring polynomials and diagramming sentences, recipients of a well-rounded education should gain exposure to techniques of (a) effective parenting, (b) conflict resolution, and (c) anger management. Maybe someone needs to devise an anger management quotient exam to be taken by people who apply to purchase a firearm.

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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It seems we have gone down the 'do yer own thing/rights of the individual' path too far. I agree that the problems come from a lack of parenting/socialization. I was raised as a christian, and I still practice my religion. I think that one of the problems is that 'freedom of religion' has turned to 'freedom from religion'. Hear me out - I am not saying that everyone in the U.S. should be taught a christian religion. I AM saying that everyone should be taught some sort of agreed upon Societal Ethics to give each person in our culture an agreed upon set of 'Rights and Wrongs'. You know, the biggies like 'You shouldn't steal from others' and 'You shouldn't murder others'. Believe it or not, there are many people who haven't been indoctrinated with those basic rules for society. It's not just guns, or violence in the media. In Switzerland every adult male has to own a rifle. That is because they all have to serve in the army, and then they are in the reserve forever. They all own guns, but they aren't going around killing each other - why is that? In Japan there are many ultra-violent movies, anime and video games, and yet it is one of the safest societies on earth. Why is that? I think the answers have to do with the people being indoctrinated with 'internal' controls. The internal sense of right and wrong is the only thing that prevents crime. If a person does not have that internal control, they can commit any crime, and no one can stop them. You can catch them after they do it, and after you catch them you can keep them from doing it again, but the internal control is the only thing that stops them from committing the crime when the opportunity arises. Yet we have a generation of parents that lived by the motto 'Do your own thing' and 'If it feels good, do it', and they now have birthed a generation of children with little sense of absolute rights or wrongs. 'If it feels good I can steal if I want to, this is America, I'm free to do what I want!' Unfortunately this kind of attitude leads to a breakdown in society. So I think I know what the problem is, but I don't know how to solve it (no big surprise there!). - CJ
- Calfee Jones
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[quote]Originally posted by Rog The Impaler: [b]An honest question: disregarding all the constitutional stuff, why do you need the need to own guns?[/b][/quote]Outside of constituional stuff IMO, there is no reason to own a gun except for maybe skeet shooting or sport hunting. It's not like you HAVE to hunt for your food anymore.
In two days, it won't matter.
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[quote]Originally posted by Rog The Impaler: [b]An honest question: disregarding all the constitutional stuff, why do you need the need to own guns?[/b][/quote]The right to bear arms is a highly controversial topic in the USA. The "need" mostly comes from the method by which our nation was granted independence: WAR. Our forefathers wanted to grant the American people the right to bear arms against our own government, should we ever feel it necessary to revolt. I can understand the sentiment behind this decision. The writers of our constitution did not want to disarm the citizens for fear of the ultimate control that our government could then have over us. It makes sense, in a "power-to-the-people" kind of way. That said, I strongly believe in strict gun control laws. But I'm not sure how effective they really are, given the high rate of homicide by firearm in this nation. I don't know if there really is a single solution to our huge problem.
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Calfee, You make some good points in general, but the problem I have with what you're saying is the assumption that if people feel free to "do their own thing" they will always do the wrong thing. I have never felt any particular inclination to kill anybody or steal from them, and it's not because my parents or religion had to beat me over the head about what was right and wrong. I think on the contrary that humans are innately social creatures and will treat each other with respect so long as nothing actually IMPEDES their innate social instincts. The trouble is that a whole bunch of things in our society DO impede those instincts. Namely, I think most of us do a shitty job of taking care of each other, whether you're talking about parents, teachers, spouses, even friends. Our culture has revered the individual to the point of pathology. If you have a problem, you're supposed to fix it yourself. You know, "You can't change other people but you can change yourself." "If you want something done right, do it yourself. Don't count on anyone." The lone cowboy with the six-gun is the ultimate American hero. Business owners would rather do without the pesky "human factor" as much as possible and strive to achieve that by automating as much work as possible. Women are worthless unless they "liberate" themselves from their husbands and have their own careers, their own money, etc. So children don't see too much of their busy parents, and besides, they're supposed to be busy themselves, getting straight A's in school, playing on the soccer team, etc. That's assuming they're middle class or affluent. If they're poor they probably end up in gangs - which at least is some sort of authentic social group. I think the fact that everyone is chasing this ideal of "independence" has boiled down to this: lots and lots of people never quite feel truly loved, or truly special to anyone else. And eventually that loneliness, and/or envy of others who seem to have some sense of self worth, often turns to rage. It's impossible to expect a person to have any respect or sense of innate protectiveness toward a society that has totally not taken care of him, especially considering he has no respect for himself. It's not that these kids don't have lots of people around, but those people are mostly part of some institution or other whose JOB it is to care about them. One on one personal interest is way too rare, and kids need a lot of that. Hell, adults need it too. Too little time with spouses and friends and/or other family can make even a relatively sane adult start to lose any sense of themselves. Like it or not we generally allow ourselves to be judged by those who are supposed to care for and about us the most intimately. If your spouse or parent or best friend thinks little of you (and spending too little time with you can easily be interpreted as "thinking little of you"), that is really a poison to most humans. Most of the time we all spend with each other nowadays is very fragmented. Consistent focus on one person or thing is almost frowned upon. Well, being very focused on your job is still acceptable, but it has to be the abstract "job", not the people. You're expected to relocate for your job, or travel, or reorganize, so that your whole social structure can be undone in a matter of days. Even the community abstraction of "company" doesn't mean anything anymore, since "the company" usually doesn't give much of a damn about its workers and could also fire you, move, reorganize completely, be bought out... etc. Kids go to raves in an attempt to bond socially, but they depend on Ecstacy to give them that feeling, and it's also of course highly fragmented - the "anonymity" is part of the appeal. No one's going to look too closely at you and you're not responsible for caring too much about anybody else either. That anyone could expect this not to trickle down to the way we treat each other in everyday life is kind of unreasonable. But when people get angry or depressed, they're supposed to take a pill and forget about it. So there are tons of people running around on Ritalin, antidepressants and other assorted stuff, and who knows what ultimate effects those things have on people's behavior. When you see someone act in a violent or apparently totally irrational way, consider how many people around you are on psychoactive drugs, whether prescribed by a doctor or "self medicating," and that may explain a lot. Of course, lots of people have still managed to avoid all this and have a good family, community, church, band, stable career, or whatever. So this all might seem very alien to you. But consider how many people ARE in the kinds of situations I describe and it shouldn't be hard to understand why there are so many whackos.
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Sometimes when I think of how nutty the modern world is I pause & consider what it might've been like to live (in whatever location I'm at), oh, say 150 years ago...or 1500 years. Vicious, unprovoked violence? Not really new. It's apparent that the attitudes of people, en masse, don't really change very quickly.
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Yeah Calfee, you got it, we could all use more compassion. It seems like "devotion" is a dirty word now, whether it's to your family, friends, art, religion, whatever... don't get too close or you'll be ridiculed or ignored. And if that fact makes you depressed or mad or you're driven insane from neglect, take a pill or see a shrink, I love you and all, but I can't be bothered/am too busy to help you. Funny how all this emphasis on the individual has actually DEVALUED the individual, from an emotional/spiritual standpoint.
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[quote]Originally posted by Aaron Carey: [b]"I'm sick of the senseless loss of life, and I want to see something DONE about it! " three words: SPANK YOUR KIDS[/b][/quote]Yes!!! Hit your children to show them that violence is WRONG!!! Good one. :rolleyes:
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[quote]Originally posted by Count dracuBunny: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Aaron Carey: [b]"I'm sick of the senseless loss of life, and I want to see something DONE about it! " three words: SPANK YOUR KIDS[/b][/quote]Yes!!! Hit your children to show them that violence is WRONG!!! Good one. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]Hey bun, I'm sure you know the old saying, 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure'. I'd much rather hear my kids piss & moan about a 'tap on the ass', to show them there are certain rules they must adhere to, than to read about them down the road in the newspaper for some felony they've committed. I think this is along the lines of what Aaron was saying. We have to get off this 'yuppie thinking' that disiplining your kids is cruel and unusual. Of course, I don't mean beating the piss out of your kids because you are unhappy with yourself or you are a drunk or some shit, but showing them you love them enough that you care about their future. Matt
In two days, it won't matter.
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Wow, what timing. I just saw the documentary "Bowling for Columbine" and I would highly recommend it to all of you. It addresses many of the comments that have been posted so far. And, while I don't agree with everything in the movie it does raise some interesting points. Go see it!! :thu: :thu:
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[quote]Originally posted by Hippie: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Count dracuBunny: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Aaron Carey: [b]"I'm sick of the senseless loss of life, and I want to see something DONE about it! " three words: SPANK YOUR KIDS[/b][/quote]Yes!!! Hit your children to show them that violence is WRONG!!! Good one. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]Hey bun, I'm sure you know the old saying, 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure'. I'd much rather hear my kids piss & moan about a 'tap on the ass', to show them there are certain rules they must adhere to, than to read about them down the road in the newspaper for some felony they've committed. I think this is along the lines of what Aaron was saying. We have to get off this 'yuppie thinking' that disiplining your kids is cruel and unusual. Of course, I don't mean beating the piss out of your kids because you are unhappy with yourself or you are a drunk or some shit, but showing them you love them enough that you care about their future. Matt[/b][/quote]Well, I just completely disagree with you and Aaron. Hitting children is for parents who can't think of a better way of disciplining them. I think hitting a child leads to violent behavior later in that child's life. It's just bad. :(
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My list: 1. No need to use physical discipline on children. I've never spanked my child, and have never had the need to. I know others for whom spanking has become so common the only real threat they pose to their children next is something more violent. Once you start down that path, jail is the likely end result. 2. Disintegrated society. Few people seem to live in one place for more than a few years any more. There's very little real "neighborhood" left. The two-wage-earner requirement to be middle class is the norm, which leaves little to no energy and time left for anything but JOB, which is as it should be according to business. 3. The business of America is business, everything else be damned. So, if you don't succeed in that environment, if you're a little over the edge you go to Plan B, which might include a gun. cf. the DC Sniper, and the failing-the-nursing-program Gulf War vet today, who was obviously on his last dice roll. 4. Over-reporting. Have you noticed how the weather is always a crisis, children are being stolen from under their mothers' noses everywhere, the roads are saturated with drunk drivers, and trucks are all crashing into cars like demolition derby machines? I'd bet a good pen that for the most part, the actual numbers are down, but violence sells, since sex can't, so the Nightly News is on a constant prowl for blood. rt
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Count Botchula said: [quote] I've met several Europeans who, after visiting the US, seem to have two major impressions: (a) just how BIG the place is, and (b) the amount of violence on TV. I'm not saying that's the answer, but it is an interesting observation. The US is known as the entertainment capitol of the world, exporting our "entertainment" to everyone; that doesn't bode well for the planet, does i[/quote]Yeah, in comparing U.S. TV/Movies to European TV/Movies, you notice that U.S has a lot more Violence and a lot less sex than the Euro TV/Movies. --U.S.: Higher Violent crime rate, Lower sex rate. --Europe: Lower violent crime and higher sex rates. I don't have any stats...it was something that I remembered from a while ago. My info's and memories might be a little old and fading... I would never want to believe that TV/Movies could really influence society that much, but you have to wonder if it does (well, it does but how much?) or how much is just a coincidence? I just read this and found it interesting...it's really just a review of a documentary of the Netherlands [url=http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/ebert_reviews/1995/03/969369.html]here[/url] But the review gets into the movies view of how the Netherlands deals with sex/drugs/guns...even though the Documentary might be too pro-Dutch. Fleaman
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Part of the problem is that the PERCEPTION of a rise in people killing each other is being created by the media. Murder by gunshot happens quite regularly in the US, and has for a long time. Mostly it doesn't get much coverage except perhaps in the local area. But because of the recent sniper, "media interest" in the subject has brought all similar stories to the front page. Ironically it's created a situation where someone wanting "attention" can murder someone and get all the attention they want. I agree with the "family values" concepts but there seems to be a disconnect in our society between morality and society. My own "personal" solution? Be a good parent to my kids. Teach them right from wrong, and LIVE that way myself. Kids can easily tell the difference between preaching and living... Do my best to influence other parents and kids by example. Volunteer to do things with local kids. Be there for the ones who need it. Love. Honor. Respect. Peace. guitplayer

I'm still "guitplayer"!

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I think the biggest problem the world faces is the exponential growth of the human population. If we can't solve this problem ourselves, then I believe mother nature eventually will... or in the end everything will be broken. We're like a gangreen on the planet.

Kris

My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days...

 

http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04

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You know, a lot of folks say getting rid of guns is the answer. 1.) Austrailia has done that. Result: violent crime has risen as much as 300% directly following the ban when there has been a steady decline for years prior. 2.) Great Brittain has done the same with similar results. This is due to the fact that bad guys don't obey laws by nature. Why would they obey another law that would keep them from killing someone with a gun? 3.) If guns were outlawed, would it be a smart trade, giving a few more lives saved by having a small percentage of criminals that have not been able to get guns (?) for the large numbers of people who's lives have been saved by the use of guns for protection?(fact) I don't think the trade would be equitable. I think there are bad people everywhere, and as an earlier post stated, the numbers are growing and exponentially, the crimes. I think the fact that so many crimes go unsolved or the justice system gives them a slap on the hand, or has it's hands tied altogether, is one of the major reasons bad people do what they do. They can get away with it maybe... Terry...
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[quote]Originally posted by cat-o-nine-guitplayer: [b] My own "personal" solution? Be a good parent to my kids. Teach them right from wrong, and LIVE that way myself. Kids can easily tell the difference between preaching and living... Do my best to influence other parents and kids by example. Volunteer to do things with local kids. Be there for the ones who need it. Love. Honor. Respect. Peace. guitplayer[/b][/quote]guitplayer - that was probably the most balanced response to the original topic. I think many of us don't put our money where our mouth is. I wonder how many of us on this forum volunteer in the community to make our little piece of the world a bit better. The spank or not to spank question is one I think should be left to the individual parents morality and belief system. Those who do spank should not be made to feel like barbarians because they do. Those who don't should not be placed on some 'higher moral pedestal' because they don't. We all could probably make a case for some bad-a$$ kids we've seen in Wal-Mart or the grocery store and wondered if the child in question was being spanked or not at home.

RobT

 

Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat

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Yeah Rob, I agree that spanking/not spanking is not necessarily the issue. If you spank your kid for being bad but then neglect him/her the rest of the time, you shouldn't be surprised if the kid actually REPEATS the bad behavior just to get your attention - even if the attention is negative (yelling or spanking). I agree that volunteering is a good way to "do something" about the situation. The Big Brother/Big Sister program is a great place to start, because it gives you a chance to have an impact on a kid's life beyond their screwed up family. A lot of times all it takes is one caring role model to make the difference between a kid having some sense of self worth and not. If their home life is screwed up and they're neglected at home, most kids feel that this is the "normal" state of affairs. Showing them an alternative gives them hope and something to strive for, that there are people in the world who aren't like their parents, as opposed to feeling resigned to a completely uncaring world.
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[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b](in part) We have a really high rate of arrests per capita, much higher than many other nations. I am at work so cannot cite sources right now -- apologies. However, it's a statistic that would be pretty darn hard to refute, seeing as we do have a really, really high rate of arrest per capita.[/b][/quote]Prison population rates were published about three months ago, still fresh in my mind. The U.S. and Russia top the charts at approx. 670 inmates per 100,000 population. Nothing else comes even close. Canada and U.K. around 135 and 150 respectively. We can't put our problems on the other side of steel bars. I'd like to know how many people per 100,000 are living in gated or privately patrolled communities.
It's OK to tempt fate. Just don't drop your drawers and moon her.
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[quote]Originally posted by Bushman: [b]You know, a lot of folks say getting rid of guns is the answer. 1.) Austrailia has done that. Result: violent crime has risen as much as 300% directly following the ban when there has been a steady decline for years prior. 2.) Great Brittain has done the same with similar results. This is due to the fact that bad guys don't obey laws by nature. Why would they obey another law that would keep them from killing someone with a gun? 3.) If guns were outlawed, would it be a smart trade, giving a few more lives saved by having a small percentage of criminals that have not been able to get guns (?) for the large numbers of people who's lives have been saved by the use of guns for protection?(fact) I don't think the trade would be equitable. I think there are bad people everywhere, and as an earlier post stated, the numbers are growing and exponentially, the crimes. I think the fact that so many crimes go unsolved or the justice system gives them a slap on the hand, or has it's hands tied altogether, is one of the major reasons bad people do what they do. They can get away with it maybe... Terry...[/b][/quote]I'm sorry, but I've heard this same old, tired, unsubstantiated, exaggerated rhetoric a few thousand times too many. For example, someone on these boards recently quoted that violent crime in the UK had increased 500% as a result of the ban on guns. When another member questioned the accuracy of the statistics, they revised the figure to 53%, which in the UK's case represents an increase in firearm fatalities from approximately ten per year to approximately fifteen. Not exactly a crime wave. In an American city, that's less than a WEEK'S worth of gun violence. So, if gun laws can reduce our crime rates to those of the UK, I'm all for it. The basic flaw with NRA rhetoric is that it assumes that people are neatly divided into two groups: career criminals and law-abiding citizens who would never hurt ANYONE. Yet, we have seen case after case after bloody case of people with NO CRIMINAL RECORD and NO HISTORY OF VIOLENCE kill neighbors and colleagues and classmates en masse. I'm glad that there are background checks for criminal offenders, but what about a Gulf War vet like the nursing student in Arizona, the teen who shot his neighbors over the weekend, or the growing number of seemingly law-abiding citizens that have snapped and staged bloody rampages in their schools and places of business? Shouldn't there be a background check for depression, despair, inability to manage conflict, etc? Don't we owe at least this much to the victims and potential victims of lethal tirades that can happen anywhere, to any ONE. The vast majority of Americans who own guns will never commit a crime, and they don't deserve to be singled out and punished for the crimes of a the unbalanced among us. But somewhere among that list of gun owners is a collection of people who are going to snap and kill innocent people. It would be comforting to have some sort of early warning system to screen them out. It would also be helpful to have a stronger sense of community in place so that troubled people will feel that there IS an alternative to violence, that the CAN turn to others for help instead of executing the first person who disagrees with them or cuts them off in traffic. That said, our society's fascination with violence and fundamental disrespect for human live are far more problematic than the right to own firearms. As Calfee stated eloquently above, weapons can exist in a peaceful society if the citizens are socialized properly. But the media present great challenges to the socialization and ongoing sense of respect for members of the community. I would love to challenge the TV networks to produce a season of television WITHOUT any images of violent crime. They can't do it, because as entertainers the writers and producers of today's television dramas are inept. Every season, the stakes go higher. More horrendous crimes. More potent images of graphic violence. Do we really NEED this kind of ENTERTAINMENT? Does anyone need to watch murder after murder, night after night? Imagine if someone created television programming that could secretly inspire aberrant behavior but still pass by the censors. If I were to imagine such a concept, it would not look much different than the crime dramas that are on the television TODAY. God help us.

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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