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POLL: Are you tired of political debates on this forum?


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Some of these topics are good, especially the ones that relate to music such as file sharing, but I'm sick of all this sniping back and forth between so called conservatives and liberals. IT'S CREEPY to me. Somebody dies and it turns into a political debate. I know the common advice is, if you don't like it don't read it, but it's showing up in other threads and ALL it's doing is dividing this forum into seperate camps. I suggest we concentrate on things we have in common because it's starting to get very nasty around here.
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I must agree. If we want to prove how immature and uninformed many of us are, all we need do is discuss politics or religion in here. By the way, did you know you are a pin cushion?
This keyboard solo has obviously been tampered with!
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I don't mind discussions - what I do mind is hostility and regurgitation of "us vs. them" rhetorical bullshit. Too many of these threads have degenerated into this stuff, obscuring what could be a real discussion of issues. Too bad, too - there are some really great thinkers here.
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[quote]Originally posted by Christopher Kemp: [b]I don't mind discussions - what I do mind is hostility and regurgitation of "us vs. them" rhetorical bullshit. Too many of these threads have degenerated into this stuff, obscuring what could be a real discussion of issues. Too bad, too - there are some really great thinkers here.[/b][/quote]Here, here!
I really don't know what to put here.
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It would be nice if the threads weren't started by people intending to demean others or their views. Perhaps we could try that, and actually have discussions? Discussion is a good thing. Let us not make it a lost art here. ;)
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One of my best friends is a bartender at TGIFridays. THey are strongly incouraged to be conversational with the customers. But there are two things they are prohibited from discussing: Politics and religion.

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"Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde

 

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I try to ignore them, but you can't ignore the thread titles. That Chief Moose dis had me seriously groaning. I wish I hadn't seen it, because now when (if) GZsound ever has some good input on a music thread, I'll remember that he's an idiot. Sorry- I'll remember that [i]I think[/i] he's an idiot. I learned early on to avoid them. I didn't read a single word of the (in)famous "Bomb Iraq?" thread, or any other recent "political debates." I'm sure there are some smart people here, but there are also some who just want to say something extreme and wait around for the flames. That said, I really like the fact that people talk about anything here, I wouldn't want that to stop. I can believe in free speech and still have a negative opinion about some of the speeches I hear.
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Brakka, I agree so don't bite me please. Those fangs, and it is the season, you know. And "Duhbyuh," if that is your real name, I think you're not helping things at all. ;)
This keyboard solo has obviously been tampered with!
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There's no such thing as facts. :D Just kidding! Cool down now. :confused: I agree, it's all too easy to get a severe case of flameitis if you're not careful. People who I'm sure would have a perfectly fine time face-to-face go apricot online when it comes to politics and religion. So yeah, no forum censorship, but invoke your personal censor, please, and keep it civil, in the original Latin sense of the term. rt
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To me the problems are that (1) some people just repeat themselves (i.e., there's no "discusion" or "debate", just repetition of remarks) & seem to enjoy provoking/annoying others (& some all too readily take the bait!). (2) when these threads get very long (& this applies to various musically based threads as well), people just post their comments about some section (often just the most recent post or perhaps just the title) without reading the intervening dialog---& when there's 67 pages of it who could really blame them! I think the real problem is that sometimes people seem to need to say [i]something[/i] even if it's pointless, irrelevent or already been said...as, perhaps, some of my comments here :rolleyes: . PS, I've only been here about a year but is it a recent trend or a regularity that this is a place for posting (non-music) news items that are already available all over the TV/radio networks ? We could debate whether that's needed...but people seem to respond to them. Sometimes an item like (to pick one at random---no personal criticism intended!) "Ballistics/WE HAVE A MATCH!" appears & before youy know it, there are several pages of comment (I'm almost tempted to see what anyone could say---I mean, how could one comment negativly :freak: ?)
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I agree with a lot of the opinions of the debates. I love discussion, I love debate, but I really despise put-downs and mean-spirited jabs. This is the reason why I haven't participated in any of the political debates for a while now. I feel like I can get more engaging, interesting conversation elsewhere, where I am going to enter into discussions with people who are well-informed and not prone to put-downs -- AND who actually pay attention to the points being made instead of drumming their rhetoric over and over. BTW, I do happen to be well-informed, citing sources, etc., so I would disagree with any statement that some people here are not well-informed. When I don't know something, I admit it in the text of my discussion, or far more often, simply don't comment on it at all.
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I really enjoy a good debate. I actually put a lot of thought into most of my posts and read what others have said and consider their viewpoints even when I don't agree with them. We should be able to debate a topic intelligently without people taking it personally or getting offended. If done well, this can really enrich everyone involved in the discussion; you don't really learn much by only talking to people who agree with you or avoiding 'difficult' subjects. When I post an opinion I'm genuinely interested in hearing reasoned discussion from people who are opposed to my viewpoint who actually took the time to read what I wrote and at least consider what I'm saying. This does happen sometimes, but all too often there are indivduals who prefer to have a 'pissing contest' and pick one misconstrued snippet to use to simply trot out the same tired rhetoric over and over. I think one approach is simply to ignore these latter individuals, but that takes a lot of discipline from a lot of people. Think; it ain't illegal yet. - George Clinton
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Yes, yes and yes. Some people just enjoy debating for the sport of it. For them it's all fun and games. Now when you mix those people with a bunch of people who are very emotional and angry, you get this forum during a political debate. One thing I have never seen posted is: "Wow I see your point, I hadn't thought of it that way before. Thanks for showing me another perspective." Almost everyone who posts on the political threads seems to have an axe to grind, and there is no possibility of anyone chnanging thier mind. Most of them have gotten so heated and personal that I don't even take the time to read them anymore. Sadly there are also alot of good viewpoinnts in there, but who wants to wade through all of the shit to find them. Just my opinion.

Jotown:)

 

"It's all good: Except when it's Great"

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For the most part I've been enjoying them. I'm former active-duty Air Force, currently in the AF Reserves, and work full-time on an AF Base, in the Munitions Directorate. Most of my coworkers are conservative, Republican, WASP-types who are in the business of war. Most of the folks on this forum, on the other hand, are more liberal, Democrat, of varied ethnic/religious/etc background, who are in the business of art. [b]Please note I said "most" in both cases!!![/b] OI don't want to offend anyone by placing them in the wrong group!!! :eek: Anyway, its a real opportunity to see the varied opinions, etc that I wouldn't otherwise get to, just BSing with my coworkers. For that I'm very grateful. The personal sniping, failures to really read someone else's viewpoint, and constant repetition do get a bit tiresome, I'll agree, but having a record that you can back up on and read really helps clarify things. Sometimes we seem to go overboard, but I'll never forget how we all linked with each other as the 9-11 attacks were actually occurring, and I think that's given us all a deeper understanding of each other beyond music. OK, I'm done now.. :)

Botch

"Eccentric language often is symptomatic of peculiar thinking" - George Will

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For the most part, I enjoy the political debates, *when everyone posting is approaching it with an open mind*. I pretty much stop responding when things degrade to statements such as "typical LIBERAL attitude" or "if you don't like it then leave". I've been a member of this forum for over two years now, and I have yet to find someone who is *completely* Liberal OR Conservative. (and for the record, I am neither.) Leave the bigotry out of it and I'm game.
meh
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I think that political debate is important... after all we are all 'victims' of politics in one way or another. I do agree however that name calling and personal abuse shouldn't be tolerated... but neither should terrorism, hostage taking or ethnic cleansing. Now exactly what is Britney's bust size? ;)
"WARNING!" - this artificial fruit juice may contain traces of REAL FRUIT!!
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While politics and religion are good examples of topics that have the potential to cause posters to make personal attacks, there are on-topic subjects that can create the same problems. The Mac vs. PC thing is a good example of this. So is the Pro Tools vs. every other DAW debate. Any subject that polarizes members into "us vs. them" camps is susceptible to flame fighting. As [b]Wewus[/b] noted, these fights can often spill over into normal threads. After all, how many times have we seen a post that read, "you should have bought a PC" or, "you should have bought a Mac" in threads requesting Mac or PC help? Since the problem exists both on-topic and off, the most simple fix is to remember the golden rule. It also wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that most of what is said by all of us here is merely opinion and that some things we accept as fact could be wrong, either in whole or in part. I find that this notion helps me accept or tolerate points of view that initially make little sense to me. While it's distressing to stumble into a fight or to witness one, I have to say that I usually have positive interactions with all of you and that I keep wanting to come back for more. By and large, we have assembled a great community here. While we could always use an adjustment here or there, we certainly don't need an overhaul! :) Best, Geoff

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brakka: [QB]I try to ignore them, but you can't ignore the thread titles. That Chief Moose dis had me seriously groaning. I wish I hadn't seen it, because now when (if) GZsound ever has some good input on a music thread, I'll remember that he's an idiot. Sorry- I'll remember that [i]I think[/i] he's an idiot. Thank you...! I got so tired of hearing all the bashers talk about Mr. Bush and his frequent mispronunciations that must mean he isn't intelligent I just had to post that subject.. One thing, chief Moose was the Portland chief of police and we were not very happy with how he handled things out here. Also, I'm not sure you could learn anything about music from me anyway..just an old conservative sax player..

Mark G.

"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs

 

"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Oh- I was actually saying that I [i]didn't[/i] like that Moose thread. That I'll remember that [i]you[/i] are an idiot. Sorry for the confusion. I'm not going to turn this thread into a political one, but I have a lot more respect for Moose than I do for GZ.
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I wade into the political ones from time to time. Here's the difference. The music threads are high efficiency -- you can learn a lot in 10 posts. In the political ones, it seems to take 10 times as many posts to extract an equal amount of information. Having said that, I do learn quite a bit from them. And opinions ARE changed. When the guy started the thread about whether a plane hit the Pentagon, he was sure one had by the time the thread was over. Long time former lurkers will know that things go in cycles. Politics is hot right now, so it's reflected here. I'm always monitoring the situation and if it gets worse rather than better, there's the delete button. It's only the last few weeks that I actually had to close a thread (it was a political one). But it's clear there are a lot of responses to the things, so if nothing else, maybe they give people a chance to vent. Maybe that's a valuable service to provide at this moment. And minds DO change on these threads...not often, but enough to make me think that some level of discourse is worth it.
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I just realized the key is in the title "are you tired..." People aren't tired of them - yet. But now people are starting to get burned out on 'em, so expect the number of political threads to decrease over tiem rather than increase.
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I, for one, am not tired of political threads, though I AM tired of what they seem to bring out in some people. 1) Attacking the messenger, not the message. It might score you some points (among the less informed) but it doesn't advance your argument. 2) Not knowing the difference between fact and opinion. An opinion is never right or wrong, it is just an opinion. A fact can be (generally agreed to be) right or wrong. For the benefit of those who don't know the difference, I try to state in my post when I'm delivering an opinion. If someone responds with "You're wrong!" or "That's not true." I know they don't get it, and I won't bother arguing. 3) Hyperbole & exaggeration. This usually makes the person look less informed than they really are. Feeling strongly about something tends to lead to overstating the case. You may have a valid point, but if you get carried away with it, you tend to come across as unreasonable or even fanatical. A thoughtful, balanced argument will carry more weight and provoke less ire. Scott Post Scriptum: The above is purely my opinion; yours may differ.
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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: And opinions ARE changed. When the guy started the thread about whether a plane hit the Pentagon, he was sure one had by the time the thread was over...[/quote]That's true. We should all be so open-minded. [quote]But it's clear there are a lot of responses to the things, so if nothing else, [b]maybe they give people a chance to vent.[/b][/quote]Yes. These forums provide a valuable outlet for us to speak our minds. To get things off our chests. To vent. If we can stay civil with each other, and refrain from personal attacks and insults, this forum can be a wonderful place to freely express our opinions to one another. Next time you're about to call someone an asshole (or an idiot, or a liberal, conservative, right/left winger, Mac geek, PC loser, bass player, etc.), consider omitting that part of your comment, and just get to the factual meat of your disagreement. We should aim to have [b]discussions & debates[/b] with each other, not fights and flame-wars.
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