Synth Bass

[MusicaL]

Hi all

 

I have a dilemma. I record my music to computer (mostly for the sheer thrill of creating music). I don't have any great plans or grandiose ideas about my music, I just like to play and create and listen to what I have created. Thank God I have a job that allows me to play music and buy gear!!

 

Anyway, here's my setup: Yamaha S-80, Roland XP50, Korg M-1, Alesis QSR, Kurzweil Micro Piano and a Roland Jv-880. I typically record basic midi drum, piano and bass tracks, edit, and convert to audio and overlay that with whatever solos, melody, background stuff, etc. You could describe my music as Jazz-Pop-Blues-Rock with a bit of a moody feel. Now the dilemma:

 

You can describe my work as a one man band. I want to be able to be totally self sufficient. Although I would like to have some guitar parts, I can do without them for now. It's the bass I am having a struggle with. I am not a big fan of synth sounding bass patches . . . Some are cool but they don't fit my music very well.

 

So, do any of you know of a good bass sound that emulates a real bass, or has sufficient character without being overly boomey? I have heard many things about the Nano bass. Is it better than whatever bass patches I have in my setup? What do you synth players use for a bass patch generally live or in the studio? I could use some help on this.

 

Thanks

 

Albert

[Steve LeBlanc]

If you have the ability to Sample, try this, I got good results:

 

Borrow a bass from someone, preferably a really good one like a Washburn or something but a Fender Jazz will do. Plug the Bass directly into your sampler, play a low "F" or a "G" (with your index finger-medium attack) and let it ring about 4-5 seconds. Find a good point to loop the sample and you're done.

 

To hear what this method sounds like check out a bit of my solo project, the Bass is all played on an Ensoniq keyboard using this Sample:

 

http://www.besonic.com/stephenleblanc

 

I'm not well versed on the NanoBass or similar sound modules but I haven't really heard anything that sounds more like a live bass player than my simple sample.

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 05-04-2001 at 03:06 PM

[analogman1]

Hello,

I use the "Bass & Drums" expansion board in my roland synth. It fits the bill perfectly!

Good Luck--

Tom Bitondo

[SFOracle]

Sit with a Bass player for about an hour. Get him/her to play some stuff you like. Talk to the bass player about how he/she achieves different sounds for different styles of music (pick, slap, fingers, thumb, at the bridge, up by the neck, over the pickups, different pickups, EQ, compressor etc.) and then sample the sounds you like.

[Steve44]

Darn, so you're not looking for fat synth bass sounds, eh? well then I don't have much in the way of direct experience to help you out. But here's what I know.

 

The "Bass and Drums" board for the Roland (would fit your XP-50) would be perfect - it is intended completely for rock, and while its title is similar, it has nothing to do with "drum n' bass" music. If I remember right, the samples were recorded by several pro players and include lots of slaps and different articulations. Here's a link to Roland's info: http://www.rolandus.com/PRODUCTS/MI/MI_EB.HTM#SR-JV80-10

 

While both the S-80 and QSR are expandable, the expansion options don't really set out to expand the palette for bass. But I really think that all of your synths should have some pretty good bass sounds, especially the S-80. But there was definitely a time when each of those synths was the top of the line all-around synthesizer, and their bass sound shave been used in many recordings.

 

So this leaves two possibilities: you don't like the way the sounds are programmed, or you might not be playing bass-like parts. If the former case is true, then maybe you should spend some time editing the patches, tweaking the effects and trying to get a better sound out of it. You may also be able to find patch libraries for the S-80 or the M1 with alternate bass sounds.

 

If the second is the case, you should look into the Keyfax's Twiddly Bits midi files. These are snippets of professional players playing on midi alternate controllers that can then be used with any sound module that you have. here's a link to their Bass volume, but unfortunately it doesn't have a demo file. But it's only $40 and has over 700 midi phrases.

http://www.keyfax.com/keyfax/bass.html

 

 

I hope that helps..

[MusicaL]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. All responses have been truly enlightening. I think I am playing "bass-like" phrases. At least that's what I hear. Nonetheless, it's a good area to test!

 

I will demo the Bass and Drums expansion board at my local music store, and may even look into samplers. I don't know yet.

 

Thanks again for all the good suggestions.

 

Albert

[Rod S]

While both the S-80 and QSR are expandable, the expansion options don't really set out to expand the palette for bass.

 

True about both. S80 has some decent bass sounds though... about the qsr, if only alesis would release the rumored guitar&bass qcard... I like the some of the 'synth-bass'type sounds, but none of the acoustic emulation ever did anything for me in the qs.

 

If the second is the case, you should look into the Keyfax's Twiddly Bits midi files. These are snippets of professional players playing on midi alternate controllers that can then be used with any sound module that you have. here's a link to their Bass volume, but unfortunately it doesn't have a demo file. But it's only $40 and has over 700 midi phrases.

 

I just ordered two of the volumes this weekend (unfortunately the bass wasn't one of them). Since a lot of people seem to have heard of it but few have actually used them, I'll try to post a report as soon as I get a chance to play with them.

 

Rod

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Rod CA on 05-07-2001 at 04:08 PM

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by Rod CA:

If the second is the case, you should look into the Keyfax's Twiddly Bits midi files. These are snippets of professional players playing on midi alternate controllers that can then be used with any sound module that you have. here's a link to their Bass volume, but unfortunately it doesn't have a demo file. But it's only $40 and has over 700 midi phrases.

 

I just ordered two of the volumes this weekend (unfortunately the bass was one of them). Since a lot of people seem to have heard of it but few have actually used them, I'll try to post a report as soon as I get a chance to play with them.

 

Rod

 

 

I have the 2 Twiddly Bits volumes dedicated to guitar, along with the Vol 1 General Instruments and the Programmers Toolkit. These are some of the best investments I've ever made. You can probably find the files for $30-35 in stores. Keyfax used to have a deal for buying 4 volumes for $120 (maybe it was buy 3, get 1 free). Anyway, it's certainly better that dropping $100-200 on a sampling CD or CD-ROM only to learn it doesn't have what you want.

 

On the topic of CD samples, I did audition the 2 Will Lee sample CDs in a local GC and they're great. I heard a good demo of Spectrasonics' Bass Legends w/Marcus Miller, Abe Laboriel, and John Patitucci, but the company's policy on ownership of their products SUCKS! I bought one of their libraries and I regret it.

[Dave Bryce]

about the qsr, if only alesis would release the rumored guitar&bass qcard...

 

Don't get me started...I think I may have the only one ever made. The shame of it is, it's a really great card. It was finished over a year ago; however, given Alesis' current situation, I'm not sure that manufacturing it is high up on their priority list. Same with my baby, the Film Score card.

 

Great stuff that may very well never see the light of day. http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/sad/xldepressed.gif

 

I like the some of the 'synth-bass'type sounds, but none of the acoustic emulation ever did anything for me in the qs.

 

I agree - that's one of the main reasons that we made that card in the first place.

 

Hey, there's always the Nano-bass...great little box...betcha can find one cheap. Different samples than the QS series ROM, and they don't show up on any QCard. Just a suggestion - I use mine all the time.

 

dB

[Rod S]

Don't get me started...I think I may have the only one ever made. The shame of it is, it's a really great card. It was finished over a year ago; however, given Alesis' current situation, I'm not sure that manufacturing it is high up on their priority list. Same with my baby, the Film Score card.

 

Yeah, I figured as much. I figured the emphasis right now is on other things, like the andromeda o/s. It's a pity since I think a lot of people would go for it. I for one would be 1st in line.

 

Hey, there's always the Nano-bass...great little box...betcha can find one cheap. Different samples than the QS series ROM, and they don't show up on any QCard. Just a suggestion - I use mine all the time.

 

Yeah, I know, you've mentioned it a few times. Next time I'm at a music store I'll be sure to check it out.

 

Rod

[Rod S]

Originally posted by mzeger:

I have the 2 Twiddly Bits volumes dedicated to guitar, along with the Vol 1 General Instruments and the Programmers Toolkit. These are some of the best investments I've ever made. You can probably find the files for $30-35 in stores. Keyfax used to have a deal for buying 4 volumes for $120 (maybe it was buy 3, get 1 free). Anyway, it's certainly better that dropping $100-200 on a sampling CD or CD-ROM only to learn it doesn't have what you want.

 

Yeah, I ordered the programmers toolkit and the general instruments to get started. I remembered you were the only one who pointed out that had used them. I ended up ordering online since I couldn't find anyone local that had them. I figured $60 was worth the risk...

[Steve44]

One more thing about Bass playing that may or may not be relevant to this thread: the Kurzweil Expression Mate, a little box and a long ribbon like those on the Kurzweil synths, has a unique mode for playing bass. Apparently you can tap and slide on it (kinda like a Stick) and it will play the pitches based on initial position and then interpolate pitch bends between notes, making it act like a fretless bass.

 

I think that it's way cool, but I can't afford one right now.. it's funny, actually.. all the things I want are only 4-500 dollars, but since I want over half a dozen individual things.. this one is low on the list.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

$300 buys a REAL bass guitar, and they usually have a way of sitting in a mix better than a sample.

[Steve44]

umm.. yeah there's that too...

[Rod S]

Originally posted by SteveRB:

$300 buys a REAL bass guitar, and they usually have a way of sitting in a mix better than a sample.

 

Agree.. but you gonna learn to play it. And to imply this is easy is an insult to bass players. Have a bass but poor technique does you no good, since there's no quantize switch http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I recently bought a guitar for this same reason. Maybe I'll do the same with a bass in the near future.

[MusicaL]

I actually have a bass guitar, and I wish I could play it like a pro. However, I can write/play bass lines on the keys that are that much more sophisticated.

 

BTW, I checked out the Roland Bass & Drums expansion board. I like it. I want it. Now, I am going to have to save some money to relieve my GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome).

 

Albert

[MusicaL]

UPDATE

 

I bought the Roland Bass & Drums Expansion board for the xp, and I am thrilled with it. Many wonderful bass patches, thanks to Abe, John P., and Marcus Miller . . . Thank you everyone for the tip!!

 

Albert

[b_3guy]

One of the tricks I discovered is to take your favourite bass guitar patch & run a pre-amp or pre-amp plugin on it. It will perhaps give you some of the punch, depth you're looking for. I use DP 2.7 & it comes with a plugin called Pre-Amp. There's a preset called Slick Bass. Check it out here.

 

http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/1586/1586770.html

[MusicaL]

Hey B_3

 

Yeah!! I do that with DP too. The preamp plug in has some nice color to it too, even if you bypass the compressor and Eq.

[Magpel]

I second those who suggest that you pick up a real bass and give it a whirl, but I know from experience that one cheap bass (and some kind of pre and maybe a compressor) will not cover the entire sonic spectrum you need to cover; in fact, my current beat up bass covers essentially the sonic spectrum of fart and little else. Plus, keeping fresh strings on a bass requires an excellent line of credit or a parental co-signer.

 

Right now, I've taken a vow to play bass for my bass parts, but I also find that midi editing--velocity changes, judicious use of slides, etc. can go a long way towrd humanizing a sampled bass part. And, please, basses performed on a keyboard may not be realistic but are FAR much more so than ANY sampled guitar I've ever heard. The very notion of sampled guitar seems ludicrous to me, no matter how many strums are sampled.

 

Magpel