Yamaha or Steinway

[Dan Worley]

No doubt about it--

*Yamaha's CFIIIS Concert Grand*

sounds better and plays better than the

*Steinway's Concert Grand - Model D.*

[soapbox]

C'mon let's get serious! Steinway rules!

[Dave Bryce]

I dunno - for my money, Bosendorfer kills 'em both.

 

dB

[hiraga]

@£"#¤.. Alesis.. umhmfpp rf..£$.. piano.. £$"#¤6grrr..ty¤#%.. module..

[Guest]

I agree with Dave here, Bosendorfer is fat, probably the best!

 

Steinway's always sound to thin for my taste, if I were playing classical only it might be perfect but for Jazz the Japanese pianos sound great. Yamaha pianos are great.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by hiraga:

@£"#?.. Alesis.. umhmfpp rf..£$.. piano.. £$"#?6grrr..ty?#%.. module..

 

I'm guessing that this is a reference to the Bosendorfer Imperial sample in the Alesis products...what, you don't like it? I actually think that it's a very nice sample - I use it all of the time (the version that lives in the DG8). However, I wasn't referring to that, and I was a huge Bosie fan long before I worked at Alesis. They speak to me, to my hands, and to my ears. I find them to be superbly dynamic, warm and beautiful, with a wonderful, deliciously airy and open quality that I have never found in any other instrument. It is my dream to own one some day.

 

I actually spent a bunch of time at the last Musik Messe in Halle 9.2 playing many of the acoustic pianos, and my experience doing this reaffirmed my love for Bosendorfer. I also had a very nice time with the Fazioli pianos. The Steinways left me quite cold - I find them to be very sharp and brittle when played hard - it actually bothers my ears, and makes me want to not play them.

 

I will also say, however, that one of the nicest, warmest most magical pianos that I have ever played is a 1929 Steinway B that lived at Blue Jay recording studios in Massachusetts, and that I have really liked many other older Steinways that I have played. The newer ones, however, do not impress me.

 

Additional note - For some reason, I think that 1929 Steinway is the piano that Kurzweil sampled for the PC88/Micropiano/Stereo expansion board for the K2500/K2600. I could be wrong...

 

dB

 

P.S. if this grumbling is just related to the contest, then !@#$%*&^%$ back atcha.

[musicman1ovation.net]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I'm guessing that this is a reference to the Bosendorfer Imperial sample in the Alesis products...what, you don't like it? I actually think that it's a very nice sample - I use it all of the time (the version that lives in the DG8). However, I wasn't referring to that, and I was a huge Bosie fan long before I worked at Alesis. They speak to me, to my hands, and to my ears. I find them to be superbly dynamic, warm and beautiful, with a wonderful, deliciously airy and open quality that I have never found in any other instrument. It is my dream to own one some day.

 

I actually spent a bunch of time at the last Musik Messe in Halle 9.2 playing many of the acoustic pianos, and my experience doing this reaffirmed my love for Bosendorfer. I also had a very nice time with the Fazioli pianos. The Steinways left me quite cold - I find them to be very sharp and brittle when played hard - it actually bothers my ears, and makes me want to not play them.

 

I will also say, however, that one of the nicest, warmest most magical pianos that I have ever played is a 1929 Steinway B that lived at Blue Jay recording studios in Massachusetts, and that I have really liked many other older Steinways that I have played. The newer ones, however, do not impress me.

 

Additional note - For some reason, I think that 1929 Steinway is the piano that Kurzweil sampled for the PC88/Micropiano/Stereo expansion board for the K2500/K2600. I could be wrong...

 

dB

 

P.S. if this grumbling is just related to the contest, then !@#$%*&^%$ back atcha.

[Guest]

and your point was??? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

This message has been edited by rsaboiasilva@hotmail.com on 04-23-2001 at 03:50 AM

[Steve44]

The Yamaha CFIII has a big bright fat sound with a key action that is pretty familiar to most players. But it lacks real control over both dynamics and tone. In 7 foot grands, my favorite is K. Kawai - it feels very similar to Yamahas in its key depth and the touch weight, but it has more control over tone separated from dynamics. On a Yamaha, there's always a breaking point where if you get any louder it will always be really bright, and on the opposite end, it will always be really dark on the quiet side. The K. Kawai lets you have more flexibility.

 

Steinways, on the other hand, give you all the nuances you could ever desire. Their actions are quite different from Yamahas, mostly in having a shallower key depth, but they give you a level of control that Yamahas just can't touch. That level can, however, be touched by Boesendorfers, Faziolis, and many other high-end pieces. Once you get into the range of expensive 9 footers, it's just a completely different league of what you can do with the piano. I really think that the Yammy CFIII is just an entry-level concert grand. It behaves quite similarly to 7 footers and has so little going for it by way of nuances and control.

[Dan Worley]

Boesendorfers are boring pianos. I think the word Boesendorfer actually means boring piano. Plus, you have to play twenty of them to find a good one. I never cared for the Alesis samples of the Boesendorfer, which, I believe, first appeared on the QuadraSynth Plus as the Stereo Piano patch-- Yuck!!!

 

All Faziolis sound hollow in the middle keys, never played one, or heard samples of one, that didn't. Nice lows and highs, though.

 

Most Steinways are really flakey in the lower keys, you never know what you're going to get. Are you going to get that over exaggerated growl, or are you going to get that doink, like the hammers aren't hitting the strings right.

 

Kwai pianos are toys. I would be embarrassed to play one.

 

From piano to piano, Yamahas--CFIIIs and C7s--are more consistent throughout the 88s than any piano out there. No doubt about it, they are superior instruments.

[Marzzz]

Yamaha- brittle sound, breaks up when playing fortissimo.....Steinway, fookin' rules, like driving a Ferrari. My HS had a 9' model D that was pure bliss. Ah, if only I could afford even a 7', not to mention a place to put it........!

 

-Marshall

[Steve44]

dan,

 

a lot of what you say is true, but the fact that C7's and CFIII's are more consistent doesn't mean they are better instruments. In fact, I think they're worse off for it. They all play exactly the same, they have no character, no nuance, they have the same vague action and loud bright tone. I'd rather have a piano that has some inconsistencies in register than one that was such a boring sound throughout.

[Dan Worley]

There is a problem with the CFIII, Steve. They're young. Wait another five years and more will mature to tickle your ear in a pleasant way. After all, a manufacturer who can offer you a concert grand and a bath tub can't be all bad.

 

It's been fun!!!

 

Regards,

 

Dan Worley

[Laurie Z.]

<

 

a lot of what you say is true, but the fact that C7's and CFIII's are more consistent doesn't mean they are better instruments. In fact, I think they're worse off for it. They all play exactly the same, they have no character, no nuance, they have the same vague action and loud bright tone. I'd rather have a piano that has some inconsistencies in register than one that was such a boring sound throughout. >>

 

Consistency to *me* means I can count on it, which Yamaha pianos have proven to me. When you're touring, consistency is a very good thing.

 

These posts show how very subjective this subject is, but in my experience, give me a Yamaha any day. I've had very good luck with many Kawai's as well. I own a 100+ year old Steinway with much character and warmth, but the new Steinway Bs (which I've played a great deal) are hard to break in, inconsistent, and would not be my first choice for a concert.

 

Obviously, each piano has its own character within model groups, but if I had to choose...(and I have)...it would be Yamaha.

 

BTW, regarding recording: my latest is a solo piano recording, and the piano (and room) were so remarkable that no effects at all were necessary. It was a Yamaha DC9, and the piano was such a dream, it wrote the songs...I just let it do its magic. Of course, having a marvelous engineer helped, but the piano....ahhhhhhhhh........ :-D

 

lz

[Spencer Chan]

Spencer Chan here, and if I may chip in regarding which piano etc.

In most hotels I've performrd in, the Yamaha five footer or more seems to be quite a standard as regards to price,tonality and touch.

Personally at home, I use a C3 six footer.

There was once when I was given the keys to a Bosendorfer seven feet four

by a Mr.Obriste(then GM of a hotel)after a request three months earlier. It was like "wow, I got it made".

Tremendous bass resonance, invoking midrange and crystal clear highs.

Then someone came along and advised the hotel re: Kawai, of which I later found out that he actually is an organist and he stood to make a commision.

Now, I am performing on a Yamaha seven footer C6 and with the room acoustics, it actually sings.

Whatever piano, please ensure that they are always in tune and well regulated.

Also, having both the Kurzweil K2500X with the Piano ROM and the PC-88,(touch adjustable), I have the option of an Ibach,Steinway or Yamaha Concert Grand without getting out of tune.

 

------------------

[KidCharlemagne]

DB, Of course, you must be talking about the american steinways, and not the german. but honestly, is there a Yamaha that is a better full concert grand than the steinway? if you want all your treble to shine at every dynamic and to blare at loud ones, sure, but if you want color, control and line, make mine a steinway. bosendorfer's are hopelessly unreliable for all their bravura.

[penfrydd]

For investment reasons, Steinways will always win. For sound, the best Steinways were produced between the two World Wars. I too have a very old (85 note) Steinway grand which pleases me greatly.

 

Trust your ears. Your fingers too. Steinways can be a little clunky, but I've played worse...I have a young friend who's a concert pianist who claims that the Hamburg built Steinways are tops.

 

Cheers,

 

Penfrydd

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by KidCharlemagne:

DB, Of course, you must be talking about the american steinways, and not the german

 

Well, the most recent batch that I played was at the Musik Messe in Germany, and they weren't the Boston models, so I'm guessing that they were German. Like I said, I found them to be brittle when played forcefully.

 

Honestly, there's nothing quite like a trade show to give you the experience of being able to go back and forth between so many makes and models.

 

bosendorfer's are hopelessly unreliable for all their bravura.

 

Not from my experience. For what I want out of a piano, my hands and ears prefer the Bosendorfers. I really like their current models better than the newer Steinways. I spent hours going back and forth between them, and I found the Bosies to be warmer, more even and more musical. It's just a matter of personal taste.

 

Sorry to disagree - guess that's why more than one company stays in business... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

dB

[Tusker]

Cool topic.

 

I never had a chance to play all these pianos in the same environment. I played a Bosie Imperial Grand annually in a piano competition when I was 13-16 years old. It was a huge, heavy actioned piano to me, and my fingers couldn't make a dent in the tone. But other pianists could make it sing, and I recall it being fat, round and sweet in a ringy sort of way. I went to several practices on it, but it was always like wrestling an aircraft carrier. I was practicing on a lightweight Yamaha upright at the time. I even tried practising on my cousin's heavier petrof grand to prepare for the Bosie, but it was always heavier and more daunting than I had expected. Wonderful piano, but not for me.

 

I played a Yamaha 10 footer for a church I attended for a couple of years. I love the piano. It sang very well. Excellent piano. It had no bad habits and was very forgiving.

 

I have an old American made model L Steinway at home like many of you. It has that famous Steinway bottom, which means so much to me when playing the first c minor crash of the pathetique (yes, I can still play a few of my favorite pieces http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif). It's not a big concert piano, but it sounds big. It's an awesome piano for more aggressive music. It has the brashness without sounding tinny. It also has a personality the big Yamaha never had, although the big Yamaha always sounded polished. It provides a degree of warmth that is very inviting, though it has it's idiosyncracies.

 

When I got this piano, I tried the smaller Yammies (7 foot, 6 foot) but they never came close. The big Yamaha had a crystal clarity on it that no other piano I had played had. I loved big cluster chords with 9ths and 13ths on it. They shimmered brilliantly and musically. A great piano for jazz and french impressionism, etc.

 

So maybe the answers are different for different people and purposes. For a 6-7 foot machine, I would willingly pay extra for a steinway (new or old). For a ten foot piano, I enjoyed the Yamaha which is in a different league than their 6-7- foot pianos. Unlike the Bosie, it responded graciously to my (lighter) touch.

 

If I was touring, with a new piano every day, I'd go with the gentlemanly, polished, forgiving Yammie. For recording, my own Steinway is my favorite familar friend.

 

Just another opinion in the mix.

 

Jerry

 

------------------

www.tuskerfort.com

[Guest]

Yeah, that's something that wasn't mentioned earlier, a pianist touch has a lot to do with it. I'm a small skinny guy but I've got really strong hands and fingers, I've often felt like the Steinways I played were going to break when I played them, I knew they wouldn't but they sounded fragile.

 

I don't get this feeling from Bosendorfers or most Yamaha pianos.

[KidCharlemagne]

you're not likely to break a steinway or a yamaha, but i have a friend who has snapped more things (strings, hammers,) on his 7' Baldwin, which had a nice sound, but made him miserable for years until he got rid of it. He has a steinway now, but will tell you that the 10' yamaha is the real prize for his debussy etudes, etc. incidentally, Baldwin is the piano for the BSO. btw.

 

i sure agree that bopping from one piano to another is the most eye-opening of experiences.

[coyote]

I'll take whichever one I can throw in the trunk of my car http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Guest]

Yeah Kid, I know I won't break a Steinway, it just sounded like it was gonna break http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Dan Worley]

The other thing to consider when buying an acoustic grand piano is whether to buy a brand new one or not. I bought a brand new piano once (Young Chan) and I'll never do it again. I really liked the piano but I think I spent more money on keeping it tuned then I did on the piano itself. No kidding, look for one that been well cared for and is at least over ten years-old -- preferably twenty years or over.

 

Regards,

 

Dan Worley

[DOS]

I've played many pianos of various brands and sizes, but I realized that some of the best pianos I had ever played were surprisingly small (well, in comparison to concert grands). For example, the most pleasing tone I had ever heard was on a 1901 Steinway Model A 6'. Oh my God! I wanted play my entire repetoire on that gem! It wasn't the loudest piano I've played (that's was a 9' Baldwin), but definately the most pleasing.

 

I have yet to tickle the ivories (well, I don't know if they're ivory anymore) of a Bosendorfer Imperial. I'd like to hear what the lowest bass note on a 97 key piano sounds like, but because of the 9 extra bass keys, it truly needs all 9'6" of length. I'd also like to try the 10'2" Fazioli (the longest grand currently made). If someone has had experience with it, please tell me about it!

 

Mike

[DOS]

Oh, and as for touch, I love Yamahas although I agree that they feel almost fragile. I would hesitate to buy one for practice because pretty much anything else that you play for performance will be heavier.

 

And just a tip for all you German (Austrian) piano lovers: the best place to buy a Bosendorfer or Bechstein is in Germany. The best time is when their currency is down. I say a Bosie Imperial for 79,000 USD new! Sure, that's not cheap, but it's a hell of a deal!

 

Mike

[Allan Speers]

Jeez, No-one mentioned Mason-Hamlin. My fav pianos of all time for jazz and R&B. Even rock.

 

Hey Dave, I also had the pleasure of sitiing at Blue Jay's Steinway. Oh man, the third best I ever played! #2 was a 1927 American Steinway at Minot studios in White Plains, NY. Steinway really has gone downhill in the last thirty years or so.

 

Can't remember the name of the best piano I ever played. It was built by some guy with a phd in physical acoustics. I think he made about 20 pianos total, or something like that. Mark Chapin, maybe? Chapman? Does anyone know who I'm referring to? He would take aged spruce, and vibrate it while watching graphite dust dance around. He would then match pieces of spruce to create a total soundboard that acted as one single piece. crazy stuff.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by DOS:

I'd also like to try the 10'2" Fazioli (the longest grand currently made). If someone has had experience with it, please tell me about it!

 

Been there, played that. Let me just say - woof.

 

Fazioli makes seriously wonderful pianos - very clear and bright, but in a good way, if you know what I mean. I actually found the big ones to almost be a bit intimidating to play...it's definitely not for kids - there's a palpable aura around it that you had better know what you're doing if you sit down at this bad boy.

 

I found it hard to be critical of the instrument because it just sucked me right into playing piece after piece - it's one of those pianos where you have difficulty choosing a piece you want to play, because you want to try all of your favorites at once!

 

They sing and resonate unlike anything that I have ever heard - tremendous power when you dig in, but surprisingly light and pretty when played pianissimo. I have been on them a few times, and found that it was very difficult to stop playing them.

 

We sampled one of the big ones, and used the samples in the DG8 piano and also on a QCard for the QS synths (Classical Piano card) when I was at Alesis. They came out quite nice, but they don't begin to do justice to the real thing.

 

dB

[DOS]

Yeah Dave, I can imagine the intimidation. It's almost like staring down a long valley of strings when you're in front of it. I'd stop playing to just admire the piano.

 

Mike

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

Jeez, No-one mentioned Mason-Hamlin. My fav pianos of all time for jazz and R&B. Even rock.

 

Made here in Rochester, NY, in their Golden Age! There was a massive piano factory in East Rochester that made Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, and others when all pianos were better made.

 

I've played a couple GREAT Mason & Hamlins here but not many people outside Rochester have played one. I missed out on buying one 10 years ago. I have 1927 Steinway M, beautifully restored by A&C Pianocraft in NYC. My tuner says it's the best smaller grand that he maintains. Huge bottom end for a 5'7".