Nobody understands us keyboard players

[b3fiend]

So, am I the only keyboard player that finds it highly annoying when the rest of the band jumps off the set list and starts playing a different song without telling you? You spent the last couple measures of the last song getting 2-3 keyboards all set for the next song on the list, and now have 5 seconds to switch all 3 to different patches. How good are you at changing to patch a3-109 within a one-measure countoff when caught by surprise?

 

NOTICE TO ALL GUITAR PLAYER, BASS PLAYERS, AND DRUMMERS:

Keyboard players have things called "patches". They must be changed to make all those kewl sounds you want us to play. Unlike guitars and drums, we don't play the same sound for every song. Have some mercy on us for God's sake, or us keyboard players will have to resort to playing the same piano patch for EVERY song! :-)

[Guest]

I understand your frustration, 'cos I've been there myself.

 

It made me change the way I worked. I also bought new stuff because of it.

Today I have a master keyboard that is hooked up to my K2500R, and the K2500R have one setup/song. Every sound that I use during the song is laid out on the keyboard on different keys. Normally 4-5 zones.

Some songs require an additional keyboard (K2000) but that program change is easy to do during the song, since I don't need the two of them from the start.

 

It's a time consuming work to have it all setup, but when it's done it's so great.

 

 

------------------

--Smedis,--

[Guest]

I agree it's a pain but that's really a skill you should be working to improve on. I mean let's face it 9 out of 10 jobs a synth player gets are really easy to play, the syhth player's challenge is almost always to come up with cool sounds and to be able to come up with them at a moments notice.

 

The best Synth players know their toys well and get around patches in lightning speed. I personally hate playing synths but when I was gigging regularly I could change patches on 3 different synths in the time it took the singer to cough, wink at the girl in the frontrow and say "here we go". Pop/R&B gigs were the toughest, I used to have patch charts for the whole set all mapped out on one piece of paper, I practiced patch changes more than the parts I had to play.

 

 

Don't get me wrong I understand your frustration, I just don't think you can really expect the rest of the band to understand. Go ahead and be secretly annoyed at them but I bet they won't care http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif.

[michael saulnier]

B3fiend,

 

Just be glad the rest of the band members can't figure out how to program MIDI files, or you might find yourself replaced by a laptop!

 

And as far as how complicated it is to keep track of patch changes, don't feel so bad... chances are the guitar player has to keep track of up to 5 or 6 effects pedals... and with the intellect of the average guitplayer, that's no easy task!

 

guitplayer (TPFIC)

[dansouth]

Can't you just have a piano patch ready to go? Nobody wants to hear those tired presets, anyway. Do you think the audience can tell which of your 247 string patches you're using. Just pick one and get on with it! Playing in a band with a keyboard player shouldn't be like climbing a mountain with your grandmother. No, we won't have mercy on you until you simplify your setup so you can keep up with the spontenaity of the moment.

 

"Please stay on the dance floor, folks - out keyboard player will have his patches loaded in another 2 or 3 minutes!"

[b_3guy]

I agree. My main board is a Alesis QS-8. I also use a Hammond XK-2, & stage size willing, a Korg MS2000. Not a simple rig nor a complicated rig.The QS-8 gives you 10 - 1 button press, patches. I refuse to get any deeper than that. Granted our guitar player uses a Roland synth & we split the synth sounds - horns, sax, fiddle, & a couple misc. ones. He missed one song start last night which is crucial. The song starts with stops with horn section fills. The drummer counted it in, we hit the stop, no horns. More or less a Train Wreck. After letting him get his sound, the drummer recounted. At least 2 or 3 times a night, the drummer is counting in the song & the guitar player is yelling wait, wait, wait. You look over & he's doing a dance with his stomp boxes, trying to get his sound set. I make enough mistakes with pushing the wrong patch button. I'm not going to get into multiple button pushes. Get 1 acoustic piano, 1 clav, 1 horn section sound, 1 string section sound, etc., at your finger tips. The audience won't notice the difference in different string patches but they will notice on-stage confusion, dead air or train wrecks.

 

I worked in a band that had no set song list. The drummer had a master list by him on the floor. Every song was designed to be started by 1 instrument, whether it was a drum beat, guitar, bass or keyboard. If you wanted to do a song, you started it. It worked quite well. It let you make sure you got in the song you wanted & there was never dead air. If no one started a song the drummer would look down the list & yell one out. The intros were always long enough to get your patches.

[joegerardi]

Ah. The reason I loved the MX-8 MIDI Patch Bay.

 

We had a fairly relaxed set list. The lead singer might call out a different song, depending on how the crowd reaction was, and we would all have to adjust on the fly. The MX-8 allowed one MIDI input to act as the master, and I would use my M1. On my set list, I had a number after each song that was the corresponding multi in the Korg. If something was called out, I would just hit the numbers on the M1 and the MX-8 would do all the program changes to all my other boards and modules for that song's setup. 99 was always a generic program: Piano on the MKB300, Hammond on the M1, and a synth lead on the EIII.

 

Now, these sound were only *played* from those 'boards. They might actually be sounds from any of the other modules routed to the physical keys onstage.

 

Additionally, only the drummer was allowed to start the song. Without a count-in from him, no one did anything. It was up to each band member to maintain eye contact with the drummer

[Guest]

I have done so much freelancing over the years that selecting sounds on the fly has become as natural as anticipating chord changes. Live performance is 95% slight of hand anyway. The only one who really notices is you. I remember playing with a country rock band years ago where the fiddle player was playing Orange Blossom Special and began playing the fiddle behind his head, under his leg and behind his back. People were so worked into a frenzy by his inebriated antics that they never realized that he had the fiddle turned off!! They thought he was great.

 

Try this. Next time the band does this to you, use a totally unrelated patch and see if they notice. Chances are they won't. JW

[hatricklov]

I'm in a country/rock band, and I use piano, pedal steel, classical guitar, strings, banjo, organ, rhodes, accordion, fiddle, steel drums, and mandolin sounds ... not to mention some sound efx patches of trains, cars, thunder, and crowd noise. The thing is, I just rattled off all of my sounds as they are in order on my keyboard in my user bank w/o my keyboard in front of me!! It might be a good idea for you to get to know your keyboard better or maybe organize your sounds to fit some easy button combinations.

 

Yeah, I get slightly annoyed if I don't know what song we're starting - but usually the drummer or one of our guitar players starts the song (if I don't) and I can tell what song it is by the time I need to come in.

 

Our lead guitar player uses a Johnson amp / midi setup and it takes him longer to change sounds than it does me!!

 

I play a Roland JV-90 midied to a JV-1080. All of my user programs are configured to match/complement whatever I select from the 90, and I just use a volume pedal to control the 1080. Maybe you can midi some of your stuff to do the same?

 

Hey, if I rip on ya a little - the least I can do is offer some advice?!

 

Good luck,

 

Nick

 

PS - Ice cubes, M&Ms, and guitar picks make excellent ammunition to get someone's attention in your band if they have the inability to look up while they play!!

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by hatricklov:

Ice cubes, M&Ms, and guitar picks make excellent ammunition to get someone's attention in your band if they have the inability to look up while they play!!

Nasty!!!

[mwisniewski]

Originally posted by hatricklov:

PS - Ice cubes, M&Ms, and guitar picks make excellent ammunition to get someone's attention in your band if they have the inability to look up while they play!!

 

A well aimed sharpened pencil does wonders as well!

[coyote]

If you're doing progrock and have a frontman who can chat, you can get away with spending a minute adjusting patches.

 

But for any wedding/clubdate/party/dance gigs, you've got to be flexible! NO more than a few seconds to adjust, and be aware the bandleader will call tunes based on how the crowd is reacting. So keyboardists ought have one-button presets to handle this; guitarists & bassists should be able to tune **by ear** on the fly, and drummers shouldn't even have a drum tuning key nearby once they start a set. Just common professional stuff.

[b3fiend]

Oh trust me... I have my presets. I can switch to what I need very quickly. The band never has to wait more than 5 seconds for me to change patches... I am all set to go IF I KNOW WHAT SONG WE ARE GOING TO PLAY.

 

My problem is how everyone in the band seems fully aware of what song we are about to play, and I have no idea until the song actually starts most of the time.

 

one good example is that we do Smooth by Santana. I intro the song with piano and horns on 2 different keyboards after a 2 beat drum fill, and have literally 2 seconds to decipher what song we are starting, change the 2 patches, and get my hands on the keyboards. ( also change hammond presets for this, but can do it after the song starts) I can't do this in less than about 6-7 seconds, meaning we just blew the intro.

 

There are about 10 songs we do that I must decipher what song it is and change patches simply by the drummer count-in.

 

Granted, the drummer has been getting better about letting me know right before he counts in, but I think the problem is that the guys I play with have never played with a full-time keyboard player before, and are just not used to needing to communicate onstage.

 

-Gregg

[coyote]

If they were already playing Smooth w/ their own intro before you arrived, just sit out the intro and do your patches! That intro phrase cycles twice; do your patches during the first cycle and then kick in on the second. As long as you come in musically that way (instead of attempting to shoehorn in the middle of a measure) no one ought to mind.

 

Originally posted by b3fiend:

I intro the song with piano and horns on 2 different keyboards after a 2 beat drum fill, and have literally 2 seconds to decipher what song we are starting, change the 2 patches, and get my hands on the keyboards. ( also change hammond presets for this, but can do it after the song starts) I can't do this in less than about 6-7 seconds, meaning we just blew the intro.

 

There are about 10 songs we do that I must decipher what song it is and change patches simply by the drummer count-in.

 

Granted, the drummer has been getting better about letting me know right before he counts in, but I think the problem is that the guys I play with have never played with a full-time keyboard player before, and are just not used to needing to communicate onstage.

 

-Gregg

[Gus Lozada]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

"Please stay on the dance floor, folks - out keyboard player will have his patches loaded in another 2 or 3 minutes!"

 

Hey DAN:

 

You can laugh nowadays about it, but I'm sure you remember when loading a sampler's bank took even more than that... that's why EnsoniQ's play- while-load and FLASH RAM features became so popular.

[Gus Lozada]

Originally posted by b3fiend:

So, am I the only keyboard player that finds it highly annoying when the rest of the band jumps off the set list and starts playing a different song without telling you?

 

mmmm... by "the rest of the band" do you mean that guitar player which I control HIS Midi processor from my computer? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

No Bassist, no drummer... simply put, my lead vocalist and Guitarist can NOT start a song without me... thanks God !... well, they could if it's a simply ballad or a Blues riff for that "Say Yeeeeeaahhhhh - (crowd: Yeeeeaaahhhh)" thing... then I do need to start playing piano and organ to make a comp ... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

 

------------------

Gustavo G Lozada

 

Moderador de:

MusicPlayer.com/NuestroForo

"La voz en Español en Música y Tecnología"

 

GusTraX @yahoo.com

 

This message has been edited by GusTraX on 08-21-2001 at 11:43 AM

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by b3fiend:

My problem is how everyone in the band seems fully aware of what song we are about to play, and I have no idea until the song actually starts most of the time.

I've been there. Seems like they tell everybody else what's going on but forget to tell you. This happens especially when something is going to be jammed, like with a guest vocalist, etc. They show each other the chords & the rythum, basically work it out, etc. But don't even tell me what song they are doing or even what key it's in. Maybe they think I'm telepathic or just so good I'll pick it up using osmosis or some other higher power. Maybe they think I'm Kreskin in disguise.

 

one good example is that we do Smooth by Santana. I intro the song with piano and horns on 2 different keyboards after a 2 beat drum fill, and have literally 2 seconds to decipher what song we are starting, change the 2 patches, and get my hands on the keyboards. ( also change hammond presets for this, but can do it after the song starts) I can't do this in less than about 6-7 seconds, meaning we just blew the intro.

 

Coyote is right . Do a workaround. They are going to get better but probably won't ever stop doing it to you. If you don't know what the next tune is get into the habit of always having your "Go To" sound punched up, ready to go. I punch my piano sound in, even if the synth is already on my piano sound, right after the last song finishes. Most songs have piano so you're ready to go. Also simplify. I often refuse to use more than 2 sounds in a song. I usually run with 2 boards, one sound on each board, no splits. Don't try to be Superman. Heck a lot of Pro's have technicians that all they do is midi changes underneath the stage. I don't think you are in that situation.

[b3fiend]

I just had a thought that was triggered from another thread...

 

I wonder how those keyboard players they keep behind the stage deal with this? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[mojosaur]

Kewl.

[b3fiend]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

I've been there. Seems like they tell everybody else what's going on but forget to tell you. This happens especially when something is going to be jammed, like with a guest vocalist, etc. They show each other the chords & the rythum, basically work it out, etc. But don't even tell me what song they are doing or even what key it's in. Maybe they think I'm telepathic or just so good I'll pick it up using osmosis or some other higher power. Maybe they think I'm Kreskin in disguise.

 

Bingo!

 

If that doesn't nail it RIGHT on the head....

 

I have actually thought about picking up some basic guitar /bass books so I can do what they do to fake it through a song... watch each others' fretboards.

 

I feel much better now that I know others have witnessed the guitar "huddle" across stage. Sometimes I feel like a player on the other team wondering what is going on in that huddle. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

-Gregg

[b_3guy]

Another thing that happens, if its not bass, guitar or drums, we're expected to do that part. If a triangle happens in the bridge, while piano, horns, organ, strings, handclaps, wierd synthy sounds, & tamborine, is going on, somehow we're supposed to cover it with our other hand. How many fucking hands & keyboards do we have to have? Yet they get pissed if we take up more room than a shoebox. If the stage is too small, who gets to set on the floor with the audience?

[b3fiend]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

[...]If the stage is too small, who gets to set on the floor with the audience?

 

Obvious! Put the guy with the most expensive and fragile gear on the dance floor with all of the drunks and flying beer!

 

Of course this same guy should also be the least mobile, so when a fight breaks out, he can't retreat with his expensive gear.

 

yup. that would be the keyboard player... now get on the floor and make room for them thar geetar players on stage! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

 

This message has been edited by b3fiend on 08-22-2001 at 09:47 PM

[DougP]

Yeah, I just played a setup-on-the-floor gig last weekend. Fortunately it was in front of a very bored indie crowd at a coffeehouse, so there was no danger of equipment damage from drunk people fighting (unlike the white-boy rap show they'd had the night before that ended with the cops being called to break up a catfight).

 

But for all our complaints about having to select patches quickly between songs, we should remember that we're lucky to have programmable presets so we don't have to dial in *every single* parameter between songs like synth players in the 70's did (or worse, rearrange a bunch of patch cords). (Actually, since I play both old & new analog synths, I still have to do this sometimes. In the Devo tribute band I was in, the setlist was worked out in advance so the singer would know which songs he needed to engage in devolutionary stage banter before while I was frantically twisting knobs and pulling cords!)

[Yikes]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

This happens especially when something is going to be jammed, like with a guest vocalist, etc. They show each other the chords & the rythum, basically work it out, etc. But don't even tell me what song they are doing or even what key it's in. Maybe they think I'm telepathic or just so good I'll pick it up using osmosis or some other higher power.

 

Hey b_3 guy, are you the one heard on Sting's "Shadows in the Rain", desperately shouting as they roll tape, "What key is it in?... Wait! Wait! WHAT KEY IS IT IN?!"

 

This message has been edited by Yikes on 08-23-2001 at 09:17 PM

[Rod S]

It helps to learn visually chord positions on guitar and bass. I got my brother to teach me guitar, and although I'm terrible at playing, I know most of the positions for major and minor chords. I remember when I played with him in a band, he would face me for the first few seconds if they started jamming so I knew where I was.

 

And I can't imagine trying to actual dial in patches. Thank god for presets.

 

Funny story : We were playing this gig, and the 1st song we started with the lights off, and after a synth intro the light guy would slowly turn the lights on as the other instruments kicked on. I had enough light that I could see the keys (plus the part was pretty easy), but not enough that I could see the synth panel. Well, malfunction in the lights and we play the 1st half of the song with the lights off. What a nightmare to get the patch changes done. After that I got the foot pedal to do the patch changes and organized everything sequentially, even if it mean multiple copies of the same sound.

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Rod CA:

It helps to learn visually chord positions on guitar and bass.

I play guitar. Do you think maybe that's why they feel they don't have to tell me the name of the song or what key it's in? hehe http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

Actually I have a little trouble reading a 5 & 6 string bass fretboard. I should buy one & work on that, shouldn't I! hehe http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Originally posted by Yikes:

Hey b_3 guy, are you the one heard on Sting's "Shadows in the Rain", desperately shouting as they roll tape, "What key is it in?... Wait! Wait! WHAT KEY IS IT IN?!"

Yeah that's me. I've got to go Sting's on the other line. He wants me to play Name that Tune, without any music or sound. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

I play guitar. Do you think maybe that's why they feel they don't have to tell me the name of the song or what key it's in?

 

Hey if I play guitar, why don't they let me in their little huddle? Maybe their trying to tell me something. . .