Korg Sucks

[ksoper]

Flame on:

 

I read the rec.music.makers.synth newsgroup regularly and still can't believe how many folks out there are still using those Korg products. While the M1 was cool for its day, the soundset was never really improved in the Trinity/Triton products that these "musical enthusiasts" insist upon using. (The word musician seems inappropriate here.) Korg took a handful of RAM, squeezed a bunch of lousy sounds into it, then cranked up the reverb and delay. The end result is a muddy, undefined mess. Oh, but it's got a touch screen, and oh, and it's silver! Folks, listen with your ears, not your eyes. If they hadn't tweaked the esthetics, you'd be pitching those boards into the nearest dumpster.

 

And the Karma...well, you can read my rant on the Karma Opinions thread, but in a nutshell: it sounds like a Korg, behaves like a Lowrey organ circa 1984, and the only people buying them are the "enthusiasts" who think that a 160 bpm arpeggiated groove is going to make them the next Moby. Dial twiddling is never going to replace lessons and practice, my friends.

 

Oh, but Keith Emerson endorses the CX-3 and other Korg products. Kids, I'd endorse anything given to me free of charge, too. The CX-3 is nice. Is it $1000 nicer than the Roland VK-7? Not a chance.

 

Which brings me to another point--price point. EMu, Roland, Alesis and Kurzweil seem to be able to produce remarkably better products at the same or lower price point than Korg. Do they think that charging more implies better quality? They're fleecing you!

 

Whew! I feel better.

(Putting on asbestos suit, making room on a shelf for NanoPiano.)

All the best, except to you Korg freaks,

K.

[Guest]

So true, so true.

 

------------------

--Smedis,--

[callengowanco.com]

Hmmm,

 

I found this interesting, a few months ago I was looking for some new boards for my studio and happened upon a triton. Well to make a long story short its still sitting in the store. I purchased a kurz PC2X and an EMu Esynth instead. The triton just had to much effect on almost all the patches which made the board totally unusable for my recording needs!!!!

 

Carl

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Kurzweil at the same or lower price point ? Not where I shop.

 

What bugs me about the Trinity and Triton is the lack of a real good piano sample in the ROM. Maybe they are available in the expansion boards, but considering the price of the instrument you would think they would have one really kick-butt grand piano sample.

[Guest]

The pianos in the expansion board for the triton are excellent!

 

Yes, the Triton is OVERPOWERED in the effects section, compared to anything else in the market. Even the extremely-expensive-suddenly-affordable Kurzweil 2600 won't measure up in terms of effects. Yes the factory presets swirl with delay and reverb; and wahs and distortion and flangers and phasers and chorus and amp simulations... am I making a point here? I think I am. We used to crave for extra effects on synths, and now there available, all we can do is complain. Hello?? there are two dedicated sliders in the beautiful touchscreen DEDICATED to the balance of the insert and master effects sections. Oh, and there's also that very obscure and hidden feature, one button click away, called "Effects On/Off". But that's not suited for the faint of heart. Nooo, programming a Korg synth is way too difficult and complex, compared to VAST for instance, which is such a piece of cake. I know, real musicians don't program. They are just too busy practicing scales. They just take the presets and use them. If only music enthusiasts are able to see the instruments possibilities, explore a little deeper and "personalize" patches to fit their needs, I'm proud to call myself one.

 

FIVE inserts, two master, plus master EQ gentlemen. Is it too much now? You wish you had less? Is it plain envy?

 

If someone is overpricing their products that's Kurzweil. Just look at their "Audio Elite System" advertisement: "$20,000, and worth every penny". That's plain and absurd snobbery. And, my GOD!, now that I recall, that synth too was SILVER COLORED!!!!

 

You say waveforms don't vary much from M1 to Trinity/Triton ROMS. Again, if someone is not changing their waveforms (not changing them at all!) is Kurzweil. Right?

 

If anything, Korg has made affordable instruments for us less than top pro musicians. I really consider my TritonProX an affordable option to the 2600 system. I think that for practical purposes, the difference between the two is slim, and that Kurzweil realized this too, hence the price drop in their products.

 

Purists won't agree to this, but they secretly wish only licensed musicians could record and make music. Only they should have access to radio air time and be rich and famous. Get respect. "Please don't let that kid get hold of an arpeggiator, he might make some money. He's being irresponsible. He should be punished!! He doesn't know a diad from a triad!! You don't understand....."

 

Get a life.

 

Guillermo Hernandez, MD.

a.k.a. memo

[dansouth]

Oh, yeah, well, YOU suck - Korg RULES!! Too many effects on the presets?? Well, I can see the problem already. Real synth players know how to MODIFY a preset. What am I saying? Real synth players program their OWN sounds. Go to the organ store at the mall and buy one of those weenie home keyboards with the one finger accompaniment feature. Leave the Korgs to the REAL musicians.

 

(P.S. Nothing personal - Dave made me do it...)

[Guest]

Yes, the Triton is OVERPOWERED in the effects section.. We used to crave for extra effects on synths, and now there available, all we can do is complain. Hello??

 

I never craved for extra effects. A synth needs to sound good without the effects. period. Turn off the effects and the triton falls behind with a lot of other synths. if you need to drench it in reverb you're trying to wash out a crappy sound. Not to sound like a kurzweil ad, but seen i started working with a k2000 I started noticing this a little more. The effects processor stinks, but if you turn off the effects and compare to many other synths (like the triton) the difference is brutal

 

Oh, and there's also that very obscure and hidden feature, one button click away, called "Effects On/Off". But that's not suited for the faint of heart.

 

Well, exactly the point. You press the button and my point is proven.

 

I know, real musicians don't program. They are just too busy practicing scales. They just take the presets and use them. If only music enthusiasts are able to see the instruments possibilities, explore a little deeper and "personalize" patches to fit their needs, I'm proud to call myself one.

 

Hardly the case. I bet if you ask most repair shops you would find out that most synths coming back for repair still have the factory presets. Hell, even that was even the case with the prophet 5 (all knobs). I'm not talking about tweaking an envelope release and adjusting the cutoff. I'm talking about really editing the sounds. Plus holding a Cm7 chord for 5 minutes while you twiddle knobs is hardly what would call a musician.

 

FIVE inserts, two master, plus master EQ gentlemen. Is it too much now? You wish you had less? Is it plain envy?

 

Envy? Numbers don't meet shit. I'd rather have a outboard reverb unit with 10% of the options and 10 times better sound.

 

You say waveforms don't vary much from M1 to Trinity/Triton ROMS. Again, if someone is not changing their waveforms (not changing them at all!) is Kurzweil. Right?

 

Well, there's something to be said about cross compatibility. There's about 10 years of knowhow on programming sounds with that bank. Plus you can add extra ROMs. In any case, the size of the ROM is overrated.

 

If anything, Korg has made affordable instruments for us less than top pro musicians.

 

Korg and a few other companies. When the alesis qs8 came out you couldn't get a controller with a decent keybed, good piano sounds, expandability, play back sequencer and decent synth sounds. Korg deserves no special prize. In any case, the triton is one of the few synths they got right. All their entry level (affordable instruments, as you said) are crap. x5, n5 etc etc.

 

What makes it or breaks it is the synth engine. An analog synth only has a few waveforms, yet a lot of the blow away romplers. A rompler is nothing but a crappy compromise between a sampler and a real synth.

 

Purists won't agree to this, but they secretly wish only licensed musicians could record and make music. Only they should have access to radio air time and be rich and famous. Get respect. "Please don't let that kid get hold of an arpeggiator, he might make some money. He's being irresponsible. He should be punished!! He doesn't know a diad from a triad!! You don't understand....."

 

I'll repeat my comment that I posted in the other thread.

 

Oh, about the Karma, yeah, we will have a new generation of people who call themselves musicians and whose knowledge is limited to pressing keys on a keyboard (you might as well put a chiquita banana sticker on the key you want to press and put a monkey on stage. I'm sure he will press the right key more often than the new generation of keyboard players) and post their music on the web. I saw a recent review on sonic state recently which illustrates my point (this is verbatum):

 

"I own the Cs6x and it is a huge kick when I made a song called "my puppy" with the voice "puppy" and all I did was set up a few appregiators and with the twist of the knobs. I'm sure glad that this baby gave me the way to make killer trance music!!!!!! "

 

Expect similar reviews on the Karma.

 

I was buying some CDs the other day, and they were playing trance in the store. I was getting a headache, the song had the same chord for about 5 minutes, with this arpeggiated pattern with someone opening and closing the filter and applying a gate effect to chop off the sound cyclically. Music for the masses.

 

Rod

[Mike Martin]

If someone is overpricing their products that's Kurzweil. Just look at their "Audio Elite System" advertisement: "$20,000, and worth every penny". That's plain and absurd snobbery. And, my GOD!, now that I recall, that synth too was SILVER COLORED!!!!

 

Actually it was champagne colored. What you obviously don't relialize is that the Audio Elite System comes with a 46 disk CD-ROM library that alone has a retail price of over $13,000.00 Not to mention the personal services from product specialist and reps, free upgrades additional hardware and much, much more. The Audio Elite System was designed as turnkey system for the studio, composer, production facility that needed have immediate access to a world of sounds. Places like Skywalker Sound have an Audio Elite in each room and unlike Korg we DON'T do endorsements.

 

------------------

Mike Martin

Kurzrep@aol.com

Kurzweil Music Systems

www.kurzweilconnection.com

[dansouth]

Originally posted by memonky@hotmail.com:

The pianos in the expansion board for the triton are excellent!

 

Everybody wants something a little different in a piano sound. I have a K2500R (with piano daughter board) sitting right behind my Triton 61-key. I have yet to find a single Kurz piano, acoustic or electric, that I prefer to ANY Triton piano. Triton rules! (NOTE: Kurz was my fave before I bought the Triton.)

 

I DO prefer my old K2000VP as a controller, though. More velocity curves and easy octave switching make it a brilliant controller.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by rsaboiasilva@hotmail.com:

There's about 10 years of knowhow on programming sounds with that bank. Plus you can add extra ROMs. In any case, the size of the ROM is overrated.

 

Experienced chefs aren't going to make last week's bread taste fresh. Maybe they can scrape the mold off, that's about it. VAST has great potential, but somebody at Young Chang should accept the inevitable and put together an updated ROM.

 

The Triton factory programs/combis were the result of an intensive, coordinated effort by the finest synth programmers around the world, including Daniel Fischer, Mr. Kurz-programmer-extraordinaire.

[ksoper]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Real synth players know how to MODIFY a preset. What am I saying? Real synth players program their OWN sounds. Leave the Korgs to the REAL musicians.

 

Just for reference, I learned to program synths in 1975 on a Moog modular system. The studio also contained a MiniMoog, and an Electro-Comp Synkey. We thought they were toys.

 

Hey Dave--do you need my shipping info yet?

K.

[Graham English]

Ha, a poor workman blames his tools.

[Guest]

Gee...lessee...I've been playing for money since 1967 when I was 12. No, I've never hit the "big time". Had some great offers, but I had a young family and chose to stay local. But, still, I've played in 48 states and most of Canada, opened for a lot of big names, have had and continue to have great press, know many big league pros and have their respect. In spite of all this, after reading this thread and being a Triton owner, I am, in many of you guy's opinions, just a know nothing idiot.

 

I had an O1/W for nine years that was stone axe reliable, had great sounds for it's time and made it on dozens of records. My natural choice after that kind of service would, of course, be another Korg. I held out until the Triton because I wasn't satisfied with what Korg had been dishing out. Although the Kurz had some nice patches, the architecture was foreign to my korg programmed brain and I personally like the sounds on the Triton better. Every producer and engineer that I've worked with since I've had it likes it a lot. I agree that the factory pianos lack what the cards offer, but the same can be said of the Kurz.

 

But, I guess after all these years I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. My ears aren't what they used to be. Maybe I need brighter highs and punchier lows in order to hear them right anymore. But, then I guess everyone else that hears me must be in the same boat.

 

We are all in this business to be all we can be. Korg was born in a bar room just like most of our careers were and they hit the motherload. Now everyone has to demonize them because they were successful because that seems to be the "fashionable" thing to do to anyone who has worked hard and was lucky enough to succeed at their craft. You Kurzheads are entitled to your opinions as I hope I am too. But, just as there are many lucky guys who have found intimate paradise with a woman who might not do anything for the guy next door, so it is with a man and his keys. So to all you who would judge me for choosing a keyboard that I happen to love that you might despise: To hell with you, I say. To hell with you. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

JW

[industriac]

Ive been using KORG products ever since I touched a synth. Started off with the O1W/FD, moved on to the N364 and I now i currently use the KARMA.

 

Sure, the factory sounds arent the greatest, but at least they give you a nice selection to choose from. And, hey, if you dont like it, tweak it. Ive been using the factory presets on all my songs because I havent had the time to go deep into programming patches, but everything sounds decent. and friends I know and my music teacher like what they heard. Oh, and still on factory presets, sure they havent really changed the architechure(sp?), but it saves money....

 

Ksoper said, "and the only people buying them(the karma) are the "enthusiasts" who think that a 160 bpm arpeggiated groove is going to make them the next Moby."

 

Never knew the KARMA was mainly for the dance market, I thought it was more all kinds of genres. Now, the virtual analog synths are the ones that allow "the 'enthusiasts'" to create music that "is going to make them the next Moby." Also, I disagree with your comment too. The KARMA has so many different types of GEs and they are, again, for different genres. I like how there is guitar strumming, instant drum loops, yes, the appegiated stuff and more. I bought the KARMA as my main synth because I liked the sounds on it and the KARMA functions just blew me away. It opened up new doors for me in my music. And, mind you, I dont create "160 bpm" trance tunes.

 

Also, about trance repeating the same groove over and over again, well repitition is always present in music, and trance isnt just suppose to be listened sitting down doing nothing. Doing that will give you a headache, you have to be doing something.

[DOS]

Hip-hop artists pretend to use Tritons on stage because they look good and pop artists use them because they have pop sounds. This is enough to keep any respectable musician away from this synth... and another thing... Moby sucks. I always say there's a fine line between being experimental and being total crap!

 

Mike

[soapbox]

Hmm...Where are the slams against the Z1 and the OASYS?

 

...I didn't think so!

 

'Nuff said.

[makalei]

Well if your buying a synth and it's not backwards compatable that means that what you buy is what you get that's not for me .I want a synth that can grow reinvent itself like Kurzweil ,roland etc.

[b_3guy]

I love threads like this. It's kind of like the Mac vs PC debate. In one way there both crap. In one way all romplers, samplers, emulators are pretty crappy. They all do a poor job imitating something. Take whatever sound you are trying to sound like - piano, organ, horns, strings, analogue synth & compare it to the real thing - it will be just a shadow of its real sound. The sampled version will have brittle harsh highs & lows that are rounded mush. The mids are just plain mush. When you strip away all the effects you are often left with nothing. If you took away the patch name on your LED you probaby couldn't even guess what it's supposed to be. The real instrument , what ever it may be, will have beautiful highs that aren't shrill, lows that are thick & solid, mids that have quality & texture. I'm not Benmont Tench with the dream rig with the dream gig. I can't take my piano, B-3, Wurlitzer, & my Roland SH-3A to a gig.

 

These instruments would cost today about $30,000. We expect todays synth costing $2,000 to sound good???? Not only we expect it to sound good, we expect to sound like every instrument listed above.

In a way they all suck. I think we expect too much & the manufacturers promise to much. Buy this synth & watch the creativity flow. If you look at a touring pro's rig, he'll have several monster racks weighing 400lbs filled with this rack & that rack. He'll have multiple boards on stage. The reason - he likes this synth for this sound, this synth for that sound, etc. In a way they all suck.

[Guest]

Originally posted by soapbox:

Hmm...Where are the slams against the Z1 and the OASYS?

 

...I didn't think so!

 

'Nuff said.

 

There's nothing to say. Any synth that takes 1 minute to do a patch change is not worth talking about.

[soapbox]

Originally posted by rsaboiasilva@hotmail.com:

Any synth that takes 1 minute to do a patch change is not worth talking about.

 

 

LOL!

[Intense Jim S]

Korg is great for salespersons. What's the deal? Sell 10 or 12 or 15 and you get a free Triton?

 

I tried 'em all. The SOUND QUALITY of the Kurzweil K2600 and PC2 speaks for itself. To myears it was a no-brainer after playing Korg, Roland, Emu, Yamaha.

 

I wish the K2600 and PC2 has more onboard storage for immediate access for sounds like other company's rack modules. But I'm not buying any expansion cards for my XV-5080; I can't wait for the Kurz ROM boards to come out. (I bought the PC2 and 5080 together:better for my specific needs.)

 

This message has been edited by Intense Jim S on 04-24-2001 at 01:21 AM

[lightbg]

I've owned nearly every Korg product from the original CX-3 on, and even enjoyed their DSS-1 sampler/synth. The downfall came after I bought an X-5 to use for cocktail hours and lite gigs. The next day Korg introduces the X5D with "improved" piano sounds. Wonderful (sarcasm intended). Not having learned my lesson, I purchased an N5 in 1999. Guess what? The next week the N5EX was introduced. Well, I EX'ed myself out of buying any more Korg products.......Go Roland. Jake.

[SlopHappy]

Manufacturers do this all the time unfortunately... Korg's not the only one. Ask all those Kurzweil K2600XS owners how they felt about that "special" $3699 pricing after having paid $7700 for their instruments a week earlier. All of these companies are businesses, who don't strictly care about art for art's sake. They need our money...and on a regular basis. Roland, Yamaha, XYZ, whatever, they're all the same. Some may tell you differently, but they're all trying to make a living.

 

I understand the complaints however. Almost all of us Kurzweil users have some criticisms of our instruments and/or YC in general.

[dansouth]

I tried 'em all. The SOUND QUALITY of the Kurzweil K2600 and PC2 speaks for itself. To myears it was a no-brainer after playing Korg, Roland, Emu, Yamaha.

 

You obviously haven't tried them side by side, as I have.

 

But I'm not buying any expansion cards or my XV-5080

 

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since you already invested in the 5080.

 

I can't wait for the Kurz ROM boards to come out.

 

I can. I'll be in the old folks home before Kurzweil comes out with those boards. In the mean time, I'm kicking Young Chang butt with my vastly-superior-sounding Tritons.

[SlopHappy]

Hey Intense Jim S,

 

Seriously...have you been disappointed in the XV-5080? Does it sound good, but wasn't quite what you hoped for? Or is it disappointing compared to the Kurzweil? I have considered the 5080 recently myself. It has some great specs, 128 voices and etc.

 

I'm with you on the Kurzweil sounds. I look forward to their next big keyboard product (ie K3000XS?). I'm sure I'll buy it, if the price is reasonable. I like other products too though.

 

Are you saying that you wouldn't really recommend the XV-5080?

[JingleJungle]

Jeeez...whatta bunch of wankers!! I love MY Korgs.... Do you know what "Kurz" means in german?...it means short...weeeel I don't want to hurt your pride too much, now...

 

Re upgrades: got way fucked when Roland did not offer any form of further upgrade, except 3 expansion cards, on the first VG-8 (that's for guitarists). They definitely showed no kinda commercial attitude...they weren't able to implement any of the changes we discussed about on vg-8.com, and you know what?? They were getting all these great ideas FOR FREE (bunch of morons)!!!

 

Pianos: my Korg Wavestatione EX is just a fantastic SYNTH - soo deep and tweakable, and one can still find sound banks for free on the 'net. I mean, who cares about piano sounds?? I've cancelled all the piano presets on the WS! I'd want to have a REAL baby grand in my living room not some module/patch/preset/waveform which replicates a 128k poly multi sampled real thing!...At least I'd have some extra surface for my hifi, the guitar amp, etc http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

FX: I love effects on synths, 'cause the effects ARE the sound, as much as the raw waveforms are... Everd heard of Aphex Twins or, maybe Brian Eno?

Shame on you all....it took a GUITARIST (yes, some - like yours truly - do have brains (& cojones)) to give y'all a lesson!!!

 

!<--Flame suit + landmines out of my studio + a nuclear shelter-->!

 

"JJ" Paul

 

(P.S: Thank you Dave...please don't call the cops - yet!)

[Intense Jim S]

Originally posted by SlopHappy:

Hey Intense Jim S,Seriously...have you been disappointed in the XV-5080? Does it sound good, but wasn't quite what you hoped for? Or is it disappointing compared to the Kurzweil? I have considered the 5080 recently myself. It has some great specs, 128 voices and etc.

 

I'm with you on the Kurzweil sounds. I look forward to their next big keyboard product (ie K3000XS?). I'm sure I'll buy it, if the price is reasonable. Are you saying that you wouldn't really recommend the XV-5080?

 

No. All the products I mentioned are excellent and it came down to splitting hairs and driving myself nuts. I would be content with any one of them. However, to MY ears the Kurzweil PC2 sounded phenomenal and is a great and easy to use MIDI controller with the BEST tech support of the manufacturers listed in this thread. The manual is superlative.It had the best category of sounds that are most important to me: piano, organ, electric piano, and drums. I love pads, vox, synth, strings but everybody has nice ones.

 

I need sleazy horn sections for my Stones-like compositions and the Roland has a good variety of those. The 5080 has many great sounds (not all great) at the touch of a button and abilities to alter them with synthesis that it seemed like a nice complimentary addition to the PC2. It can also read and play back samples which makes it open ended. I could have been happy with a Proteus 2000 which is about 1/3rd the cost of the 5080 but I wanted the larger display panel and spdif I/O of the 5080. Also, I read the Proteus fx routing is a nightmare. The Triton products are excellent too. I just thought the Roland had a slight sonic edge but clearly people have different perceptions and desires of their equipment. All of these boxes offer more than I think I'll ever need in regard to sounds and synthesis.

 

It's the song and groove that counts. The best tones in the world are useless if you can't groove regardless of the genre or style you work with. Take comfort in knowing that, IMHO, there may be a better choice for you amongst these products...but you really can't make a wrong decision either.

 

BTW, I checked out all the products for double-digit hours through speakers and headphones. The latter was great because it helped cut out the kids playing off-tempo Metallica throught the adjacent Peavey amps!

 

AND I AM A GUITARIST OF 21 YEARS EXPERIENCE!!!!

[Max Ventura]

I don't think there is a great deal of difference between the current crop of Korg machines, Yamaha or Roland. They pretty much tend to stay on the same quality, price and performance level: in fact, it's been like that since the end of the analog era (circa 1984). They are the three big names in keyboards, period.

The other brands, whether top ones like kurzweil and the minor ones like Novation, are on a digfferent leaugue, called miscellaneous.

Korg, Roland and Yamaha pretty much stab each ther in the back every couple of months or so with a product that replicates the competition offer. Now yamaha has a couple of desktop synth/sequencers that are a TOTAL ripoff of the Korg Electribe series, but better; the Triton Rack is a TOTAL ripoff of the Yamaha EX5R format, but better; the Roland XV88 synth is a TOTAL ripoff of the Yamaha S-80 synth; and so on.

In fact, if you hear a preset sound from any of the machines I mentioned, you won't be able to tell which is which. Effects or not.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by argomax:

the Roland XV88 synth is a TOTAL ripoff of the Yamaha S-80 synth

 

Actually, both of those are a complete ripoff of the Alesis QS8, which completely dominated the American music industry for about three years, outselling every other synthesizer made by every other manufacturer regardless of the key configuration. Although it did not achieve anywhere near the success in Europe that it did in the US, over here it was the undisputed king of the hill.

 

This is not an opinion - it is a fact. Trust me - I was the marketing manager for the division and Alesis' IAEKM (International Association of Electronic Keyboard Manufactururs) representative during that period, and saw everybody else's numbers. Nobody touched the QS8 from about 1997 - 2000.

 

Do you think that it's a coincidence that the Yamaha keyboard is called the S80?

 

dB

[dansouth]

Roland is my "secret weapon" for orchestral stuff. Nothing I've tried sounds as good. Individual samples may sound better on some samplers, but for creating ensembles, the Roland stuff has no peer. I'm hoping that they'll come out with some new orchestral samples for the XV-5080. That'll be my new dream machine.

 

That said, I don't care for Roland's drums, basses, and rhythm instruments. They're not punchy enough. Kurz and Korg are better for rhythm sections. I haven't tried the Yamaha boards, but I've heard that the S80, EX5, and CS6x are all very nice.