Features I hate

[Erik Norlander]

Following up on Dave's "Suck Factor is High" thread, how about a list of bad ideas in synth products?

 

Here's a start:

 

1. Roland side-to-side pitch paddle with unusable push-it-forward mod control. With all that plastic on the synths, can't you afford to add a second wheel?

 

2. Joysticks for pitch and mod. Okay, I get it on the wave sequence / vector machines, but for pitch bend and vibrato, it's totally unplayable.

 

3. Wheels located elsewhere than immediately to the left of the keybed.

 

4. Pitch bend wheels that do not spring back a strong center detent (see: Minimoog, Prophet 5...)

 

5. Non-backlit LCDs.

 

6. Propietary sample RAM.

 

Okay, enough. I know I'll never work in this business again ... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:

Following up on Dave's "Suck Factor is High" thread, how about a list of bad ideas in synth products?

 

 

Okay - here's one I hate:

 

Non-standard program change numbering. Grumble grumble....

 

I think that all synth manufactureres should be required to have their first program be #1 - none of this program 000 - 127 nonsense. 1-128 - as it should be....when was the last time that you heard anyone start counting something with a zero?

 

Oh, and the Roland base 8 thing is just right out...y'know - programs numbered 11-18, then 21-28, then 31-38...81-88. Ugh.

 

Casio pro synths (no wisecracks - the VZ series were excellent "FM" synths, and the FZ series were great samplers for their time!) had A1-A8, B1-B8, etc. Double ugh.

 

dB

[Pim]

Well Erik, you mentioned a lot I agree with...

 

Try to assign a reverb to a drumsound in the Alesis QS series. A drumsound can be anywhere in one of the 16 keyzones and each keyzone has 10 sounds wich is build up from 4 samples. The programmers where so smart not so implement a key to note-chase function like they did in the DM4. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

One thing I really hate, but which is not a feature: promises which never came true.

Where's the sampling module for the Marion MSR2 and where's the FX module for it?

 

Who has ever seen a PCM card for the Wavestation A/D?

 

Pim.

 

------------------

www.dancewave.nl

 

[This message has been edited by pim@dancewave.nl (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Jim Aikin]

...and the winner is: Roland's random panning parameter. This setting completely destroys any sense of where the sound is in the stereo field. It wouldn't be so bad, if only the factory programmers didn't insist on *using* the silly thing. Any time you want to use a sound that has random panning, you have to copy it to a RAM location just to turn off the panning!

 

--Jim Aikin

[Max Ventura]

by erik

1. Roland side-to-side pitch paddle

5. Non-backlit LCDs.

6. Propietary sample RAM.

I do not agree on the pitchbend lever issue, Erik, because I do find it much more playable than the wheel. On the other issues, I'd even stretch them: nobody should make anymore non-strongly backlit LCDs smaller than, at least, 2x4 inches. At least.

And nobody should use volatile memory anymore. Ram and internal HD should disappear from samples and modules, substituted by Zip disks or a suitable contender. Check out the Roland SP-808 EX, which uses a 250 Mb Zip instead of Ram and HD; just how much better is that than an Akai or an Emu that you have to fill with Ram plus Expansion? Ten times better? A hundred?

 

And then one from me:

I hate when you CAN do too much with the waveforms, when you can have a sound composed of four, six, eight layers, each with its own four oscillators... I dont' give a damn fuck. You never get a decent, usable sound out of those jumbles of waves, and you do waste an unreasonable amount of time working on them, keeping on switchin' between patches and having to kkep your attention busy on 12 places at one time. I agree that research on sounds is important, but 'round here that is called wanking.

Max

Italy

[Erik Norlander]

Originally posted by pim@dancewave.nl:

Well Erik, you mentioned a lot I agree with...

 

Try to assign a reverb to a drumsound in the Alesis QS series. A drumsound can be anywhere in one of the 16 keyzones and each keyzone has 10 sounds wich is build up from 4 samples. The programmers where so smart not so implement a key to note-chase function like they did in the DM4. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Yes, it's tough to program drumkits in the QS. When I do it, I always a yellow legal pad to take notes as to where everything is. It is ultimately a quite powerful implementation with the ability to stack four drums on one key if you like, each with different velo and filter curves, but man, it's complicated and obscure to work.

 

BTW, speaking as someone who was very involved in the creation of those machines, the emphasis was clearly put on the ease of selecting and playing preset programs and NOT on programming. If you wanted to program or edit, you certainly could, but that was not emphasized in the interface design as you can clearly see. Editors like MOTU Unisyn are of great help, though, if you do want to dive in to programming. And in spite of the difficult programming interface, I *can* tell you that 99% of the presets in the machine were written from the front panel without any computer editor. Luddites, all of us.

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

[Erik Norlander]

You know what I really hate in synthesizers? Plastic. Plastic is bad. It's cheesy anywhere it's used. I guess I can be content with plastic knobs, but even then, some nice metal knobs would be better. Can I think of a synth with metal knobs? Hmmmm. Nope. But I sure can think of some great recording consoles with metal knobs.

 

Metal is good. Wood is good. Yes, they're heavier. But they're heavier because they're better.

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:

And in spite of the difficult programming interface, I *can* tell you that 99% of the presets in the machine were written from the front panel without any computer editor. Luddites, all of us.

 

He's right - I wrote one or two programs for these machines as well, and I never touched the Unisyn profile. I've never been a big fan of the computer editor thing, despite the obvious advantages.

 

Here's why: to me, any programming that requires touching something other than the machine being programmed is...well...just not right - can't really explain it any better than that. I find that I don't do a great deal of programming on any of my modules for this reason. Tweaking, yes. Programming - no (okay, I make an exception for the Prophet VS).

 

I have a bunch of my modules positioned directly over my master keyboards in an effort to combat this obstacle. This did help a bit, but I still find that the ones that I tend to program are the instruments with keys.

 

dB

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Jim Aikin:

...and the winner is: Roland's random panning parameter. This setting completely destroys any sense of where the sound is in the stereo field. It wouldn't be so bad, if only the factory programmers didn't insist on *using* the silly thing. Any time you want to use a sound that has random panning, you have to copy it to a RAM location just to turn off the panning!

 

--Jim Aikin

 

Absolutely true. I do the same thing, and I use my Rolands extensively. If they insist on using this effect, they should provide a global disable switch.

 

Also agree with Dave that programming is a very tactile experience, with a couple of exceptions: software synths and synths with pathetic physical interfaces, like the Wavestation SR.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Okay - here's one I hate:

 

Non-standard program change numbering. Grumble grumble....

 

I think that all synth manufactureres should be required to have their first program be #1 - none of this program 000 - 127 nonsense. 1-128 - as it should be....when was the last time that you heard anyone start counting something with a zero?

 

From the entineer's perspective it makes sense to count from zero, particularly if you want a bank of 100 patches to be differentiated by two digits (00-99), a la the K2000.

 

More important to me would be standardization of bank select messages, which range in degree of complexity from easy (Kurzweil) to computer-geeks-only (Roland). Come on guys! Who wants to worry about low- and hi-order bytes when selecting a preset?

[Synthworld]

A feature I hate is cooling fans.

I've gotten rid of all the synthesizers in my studio that had cooling fans (Waldorf Wave, Fairlight CMI and a Memorymoog).

The last thing I want while composing is the sound of someone running a vacuum cleaner in the studio.

A musical instrument should make no sound until you play it.

A piano doesn't and electronics should be no different.

 

Zon

[Peake]

Zon, where's your dumpster located? I'm going to camp out there from now on ;-)

[Guest]

Display screens that emit that high-pitched whine.....almost makes me glad I have HD noise from my computer to mask it!

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by marzzz@aol.com:

Display screens that emit that high-pitched whine.....almost makes me glad I have HD noise from my computer to mask it!

 

What do you have that does that?

 

dB

[Marzzz]

>>What do you have that does that?

 

A Roland A-80 MIDI controller, which is about 9 years old. I have heard this complaint frequently with older synths, and this is the only one I own that does this. Drives me nuts! Unfortunately, I otherwise like the A-80 too much too replace it (can you say poly-aftertouch?)!

 

-MLC

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Marzzz:

>>What do you have that does that?

 

A Roland A-80 MIDI controller, which is about 9 years old.

 

(snip)

 

Unfortunately, I otherwise like the A-80 too much too replace it (can you say poly-aftertouch?)!

 

 

Yeah, I can - and a great feeling keybed as well...plus a great interface, and those rockin' little keybed locks on the bottom.

 

Killer toy...

 

dB

[Pim]

Originally posted by marzzz@aol.com:

Display screens that emit that high-pitched whine.....almost makes me glad I have HD noise from my computer to mask it!

 

The display of my Korg Wavestation A/D used to "sing" as well. A smart technician made a switch on it. I could turn off the light of the LCD screen and all that left was a beautiful silence...

 

 

 

 

------------------

www.dancewave.nl

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:

Following up on Dave's "Suck Factor is High" thread, how about a list of bad ideas in synth products? Erik

 

Velocity-switched Rhodes patches that switch between a soft timbre and a really hard "whack the keys" sample. To control it, you have to play at ppp, or fff, which is kind of absurd.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Marzzz:

>>Unfortunately, I otherwise like the A-80 too much too replace it (can you say poly-aftertouch?)! -MLC

 

I have an A50, the 76-key version of the A80. I wanted to replace my A50 with an A80, so I started hunting for an A80. I looked a few of them, and found that the aftertouch, both poly and mono, was very hard to engage on A80's. I talked to Roland service, and posted various messages on rec.music.makers.synth about this. It seems that it's a common problem that the aftertouch strip on A80's wears out, and that even on good A80's, aftertouch is hard to engage. Have you had this problem with yours?

[Marzzz]

Originally posted by guestuser@guestuser.com:

 

>>I found that the aftertouch, both poly and mono, was very hard to engage on A80's. It seems that it's a common problem that the aftertouch strip on A80's wears out, and that even on good A80's, aftertouch is hard to engage. Have you had this problem with yours?<<

 

You need hands of steel to activate the aftertouch of an A-80. I work around it by using a fairly steep response curve in the A-80, and use a Transform function in the Logic Audio environment to help it along. The aftertouch has always been difficult to use, but if anything it has gotten easier since I first bought the A-80 new in '91.

 

Roland has a factory-approved modification, involving changing one resistor on the main circuit board, which supposedly makes the aftertouch easier to use. I am planning on eventually changing that resistor to variable one, so that I can find the optimal setting. Unfortunately, I am not handy with a soldering iron on a circuit board, but it is a fairly easy mod for someone with experience.

 

In the meantime, I prefer the piano touch of my A-80 to anything that has come out in the past ten years- even the A-90 that replaced it.

 

-MLC

 

[This message has been edited by Marzzz (edited 11-26-2000).]

[The Soundsmith]

I have to come down on the side of the Anti-Roland paddle. I enjoy using it for a vibrato or wahed filter, but my most important use of controller 1 is to turn on/off the Leslie FX on the organ patches. Any wheel (except pitch) that won't stay where ya puts it got no business on a pro keyboard. IMHO...

 

On the other hand, the DX7 was (and still is) a marvelous instrument for the kinds of sound it was designed to make. Yeah, sure, it can sound thin and whiny, but it can also create a particular ambiance that no other machine can duplicate.

 

The CZ-101 Casio, OTOH, is the all-time cheezoid synth ever designed! But like all things imperfect, the secret is knowing what works and what doesn't. CZ owners, try this: take a percussive plink that sounds like R2D2 dropping his (its?) teeth. Run it into a reverb which is primarily early reflections with just a little short decay reverb and voila: Some metallic object being struck in a room. Sounds totally real,yet unidentifiable...

 

------------------

The Soundsmith

[Botch.]

In addition to the non-standardized patch programming that Dave Bryce and dansouth mentioned, I really dislike multi-press patch entering, i.e. press "1", then "8" then "Enter" to call up patch 18, instead of hitting button 18. For live work this is not good. I have to scroll to the right patch number on my Nordlead, but the sound makes me "forgive"... I haven't worked with a Fatar yet, but that looks even worse.

Was interesting to hear from fans of the A-80. I liked the feel too, but at 90 lbs I finally had to replace it (lightweight Kurzweil, MUCH nicer to tote up stairs). And I certainly don't miss working with the Roland instruction manual, even for a simple controller...

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by The Soundsmith:

I have to come down on the side of the Anti-Roland paddle.

(snip)

Any wheel (except pitch) that won't stay where ya puts it got no business on a pro keyboard. IMHO...

 

Hear, hear. Well said.

 

Plus, for all intents and purposes, the darn thing is a momentary switch! Suppose you only want a *little* bit of vibrato...?

 

Yeesh...

 

dB

[Jonathan Hughes]

"Plus, for all intents and purposes, the darn thing is a momentary switch! Suppose you only want a *little* bit of vibrato...?"

 

Only the older models were just switches. All the models since the Alpha Juno (I think) have had a pressure sensitive paddle. The more you push it forard, the more modulation you get.

 

I personally like the paddle. The left/rightmotion makes more sense (to me) for pitchbending than a wheel. Plus I like the the fact that you can pitchbend _and_ add modulation in one fluid motion (I always thought Korg's joysticks were too flimsy for this).

 

I certainly understand the objections to the paddle, though. On my SH101, sometimes I used to put a rubber band around the paddle and hook it on the volume knob, so the modulation was always engaged. Then I'd adjust the amount of modulation with the slider that was conveniently located directly above the paddle.

 

Didn't one of Roland's controller keyboards have the paddle _and_ two wheels?

 

The bender/wheel combination is a little weird. I like the concept, but the wooden bender looks like something that someone carved in his basement to replace a missing part. And that stone mod wheel just feels weird. It feels like it's made out of the stuff that they make 4th of July sparklers out of.

 

Jonathan

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Jonathan Hughes:

"Plus, for all intents and purposes, the darn thing is a momentary switch! Suppose you only want a *little* bit of vibrato...?"

 

Only the older models were just switches. All the models since the Alpha Juno (I think) have had a pressure sensitive paddle. The more you push it forard, the more modulation you get.

 

I'm hip - that's what I was reffering to when I said "for all intents and purposes", because I still feel that the short physical throw of the paddle greatly diminishes how expressive one can be compared to even the Korg joystick or the (mostly) ubiquitous mod wheel.

 

But then again, I'm not the most subtle person in the world, so nuance is sometimes lost on me... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

dB

[Guest]

- "Plus, for all intents and purposes, the darn thing is a momentary switch! Suppose you only want a *little* bit of vibrato...?"

 

Just wanted to point out that all Rolands aren't created equal, when it comes to this "feature". For example the workstations (xp50, 60, 80) tend to have much longer throws then the synths (xp30). I play an xp50 in studio and xp30 live, and many of my patches don't play on the xp30, because the modulation goes from 0-127 almost instantaneously! So some of the variation in our experiences may be synth dependent.

 

Personally I like the paddles for the following reasons:

- I started with a juno 60... mod wheels came later to me.

- The paddles offered easy 2 dimensional control before the x-y pads (e.g. Z1) & ribbons came out

- I have other controllers (pedals and sliders) on these synths for "set it and forget it" tasks.

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by jerrya3@hotmail.com:

Just wanted to point out that all Rolands aren't created equal, when it comes to this "feature". For example the workstations (xp50, 60, 80) tend to have much longer throws then the synths (xp30).

 

Having not played all Roland synths, I did not realize that was the case - thanks for the clarification.

 

That being said, my personal preference still leans towards a mod controller that has the ability to stay where I leave it, which takes the paddle and the Korg joystick right out.

 

dB

[marino]

Amen, Dave!

I often gig with an XP-80 for various practical reasons, and while I like the sounds (especially on the expansion boards), I dislike the keyboard, and I HATE the paddle.

It's true that the modulation "axis" has a longer throw than on other Rolands, and you *can* apply just a bit of it if you want. But this has nothing to do with the precision you can achieve with the wheel. Plus, of course, it is spring-loaded.

And the pitch... Well, you can adapt to it. I certainly did.

But the wheel is way, way better for my playing.

 

marino

[ITGITC]

Features I hate?

 

Finding ABC (already been chewed) gum under the keyboard.

 

Who's responsible for this?

[zeronyne]

Whoah...a six year old thread.

 

I'd rather have a Roland pitch paddle than a wheel with a huge dead spot in the middle.

 

I really cannot stand when they silkscreen the features of the keyboard right on the top panel. This is what makes keyboards infinitely less cool than guitars. Can you imagine a guitar that had "Active PreAmp, Locking Trem, Side mounted jack" silkscreened on the body?