First One Here!

[Dylan]

Woo hoo....look at me....first one here.

[robdarlingmail.com]

Actually, I was the first one here- even before the top Welcome posting. But my views weren't appreciated and were deleted. Come on eqmag. I know you've got bills, but to let an advertiser take over and delete posts?

 

Knowing that my post would most likely be eliminated before anyone read it, I copied it and I will re-post it. I will also say to the folks at SAE- this site has always had a reputation for being a place where you could says what you please and feel that your thoughts would survive on their own merit. Interested in killing that?

 

Later, Rob D.

 

Original Post, under the Title "Are You Kidding Me?"

 

 

I mean, I guess this is a great place to have all those damn "Which School Should I Go To?" questions, but come on, it's bad enough these places exist without them being pushed by the magazines. Maybe this should be called the "Take all the tuition, get an apartment in Manhattan/LA/London, and go get a gig in a studio" forum.

 

 

This message has been edited by robdarling@mail.com on 04-16-2001 at 12:45 PM

[MarkMartin]

I'm not sure who deleted your posting...Certainly not SAE...We're facilitating this site to answer questions people have about starting in the industry. You're opinion about "going and getting a gig in a studio" is an option that may work for some..Thanks for bringing that opinion to our forum...

[Valkyrie Sound]

Hmmm...

 

I'll try not to be too rude here...but

I'm concerned about this forum already.

 

A) The title on the main forums listing

only says "Audio education forum". It does

not give the impression that this is sponsored

by any one school... like SAEI. That seems very

deceptive....

 

B) It is moderated by someone with a financial

interest from the sponsor...a for profit school.

It does not matter how honest or fair Mark is...

all that matters is that there is only one

moderator and he is from the advertiser.

There is an inherent conflict of interest in this forum.

 

C) I've always appreciated the fact that NONE

of the audio industry magazines took any sort

of stand about which school is better than the

other. This forum looks like a HUGE endorsement

of SAEI. If we really want an audio education forum

the moderators should come from several schools

or even better... from the AES education committee.

 

Don't get me wrong... I'm a strong supporter

of audio education. I just really have a problem

with paid/sponsored AD forums which this forum

appears to be.

 

Valky

 

 

This message has been edited by valkyriesound on 04-16-2001 at 11:20 PM

[robdarlingmail.com]

Allright, I'm sorry to be such a ballbuster, but I love hyperbole. Audio schools aren't going away, and except for this forum and it being funded by an outside party offending me, I love eqmag for having this bbs. So I shouldn't be too tough and should enter the requisite dialogue that leads to growth.

 

To start with, honesty. To be honest, I don't like the audio schools because they take a great trade and make it harder to get into by making it easier for kids who don't have it in them to stick with the trade to get started. Then they kind of persist beyond where they otherwise would have quit and clog up the system.

 

Being an engineer is an incredibly tough gig. The system is rough and the payoff is long and hard, with very few foks making it to the top. Having more people to weed through makes it even more complicated.

 

My feeling is that audio is a craft. Like shipbuilding or carpentry, it is best learned by doing it and being around the masters. It requires constant learning, until the day you stop doing it, and a constant vigilance and effort to push and grow. Starting with a legitimizing safety net to me undermines one of the required fundamental personality traits- perserverence and strength in the face of challenge.

 

I know I'm not alone in these feelings. I know that those in the shcools have a different view. But I'd love to talk about things that might make the two world come together.

 

Later, Rob D.

[Hack]

I work for a live production company. Ov the past couple of years we have had at least 20 - 30 people apply for work straight out of Audio School. None of them have stuck. Some couldn't even pass the "here's the mic box, show me a 58" test! Most have had ego problems right off the bat too. Many found it insulting to have to coil up cables... "I'm a mixer, I went to school for it!" Surley these schools teach you something or they wouldn't exist, maybe. But from my expierence the ones we did let loose on a console still needed about 2 years more of "education".

I know my education has been paying the bills for me for the last 4 years. It sends me all over the country and puts behind the console for everything from local band festivals to grammy award winning artists. I would trade it for anything. And also, if you want to work for a manufacture, shouldn't you go to electronics school?

[ANGRY]

Hello,

Allow me to glorify the music industry if I may.

I'm 27 and I've been playing music for many years I've recorded lot's of records and toured all over the world, however when I get home from tour

I have to find a new place to live, because punk rock isn't a very lucrative career choice.

The thing is, is I spend every waking moment working on music.

I have band practice every weekday morning and then I record local bands working almost every night and when there's a concert in town I'm most likely to be one of the grunt/loaders helping to set up the venue and FOH sound then going to get the catering then come back work the door and load out everything at the end of the night.(not all by myself of course)

Also when I have time I write music/jingles for a studio in town.

Although I'm "working" pert near 24 hours a day, sometimes I don't make enough to pay my bills forcing me to take a job babysitting a few day per week

my point being (I do have one) is that for alot of people these schools

are in a sense the path of least resistance meaning "if I go to school,

then I'll have a new shiny career with all the trimmings waiting for me at graduation.

Now I'm not saying that the persuit of knowledge via school is a cop out,

But like with any craft, you get good by eating, breathing and sleeping it

I plan on a successful career in music not because I payed for it or got an "A" on aligning a tape machine 101

but because I can't picture myself doing anything else, and no I don't have an accounting degree to "fall back on"

I do it because I'd rather be broken down somewhere in Germany using my shoe as a pillow (true story) than learn how to put on a tie.

So, anyway I didn't mean to go off on a rant here but the best advice

I ever got concerning audio school was "take all the money you'd spend on tuition buy some gear and get to work!!!"

Thanks for having these forums they serve as my audio school correspondance course

Andy

 

 

This message has been edited by ANGRY on 04-18-2001 at 03:40 AM

[Valkyrie Sound]

Andy: You're missing the a major point about

audio education...

 

You DON'T HAVE TO BE A RECORDING ENGINEER

AFTER YOU GRADUATE!

 

See me other response here:

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000003.html

 

Valky

[ANGRY]

Valky,

I think you missed the point of my point.

I don't want to be just an engineer per se

as much as I want to be involved in the making of music

whether that be live sound or studio or writing or playing or whatever.

I know fully well that there are many different hats to wear

and to be honest I'd like to think of myself as wearing more than one

so I understand and agree to what you're saying.

I just have friends that went to these schools, and when they graduated they were expecting studios to be knocking down their doors.

Little did they know...

Andy

[robdarlingmail.com]

Yeah there are lots of other jobs in audio. Why you would shell out the dough that would get you a great liberal arts education and teach you to read, write, think, and communicate just to get a damn sales job and the opportunity to wear a tie with jeans, I don't know. Come on- why would you pay to become a regional rep for Alesis?

 

If you are young and want to get into audio, go to a real college, drink a lot, have fun, do well enough in class to not get thrown out until you find what you love in school and start to do well, and spend a bunch of time at the local studio. You will walk away intelligent, informed, and you will know how to keep your mouth shut while running a session. Much more than I can say for your average audio school education. At that point you will also understand that you are still 5-10 years away from even being a decent engineer and just what it will take to get there, something that an audio school will never tell you.

[MarkMartin]

Wow...Extreme views on this subject...I still feel those who have what it takes will excel either road they go...School, 4-year, etc...The end result will be the same..only the path will vary...

[Anderton]

Mark, you are a patient soul! After reading these posts, I definitely have a few comments. I'll make each topic a separate post so that it's easier to reply.

 

Let's start with the "This is a forum from someone with a vested commercial interest in audio education and represents a conflict of interest." First, I've visited some SAE schools, and the people there are very serious about what they do. They are working from a pool of knowledge that will benefit the MusicPlayer.com community. There are so many people who have questions about audio education - several threads have been started in my own forum - and frankly, no one else here (me, Roger, George, Dendy, Walker, etc. etc.) is qualified to talk about this. Whenever someone asks a question about schools in my forum, I basically have to say "gee, I dunno, anyone else have an answer?"

 

There is no attempt to cover up the fact that SAE people are moderating this forum. Why SAE? Because they were willing to do it, they have solid credentials, and they're an organization that is global and can therefore answer questions from a global perspective. The forum is NOT called "Why You Should Go to SAE." The people hosting this forum are reasonable people and they will answer your questions as best they can, and defer to others when they can't.

 

George Massenburg is a manufacturer, but no one complains about his presence here, because he has so much useful advice. I think y'all should give this forum a chance; SAE was willing to take a chance on you/us, and we should put out the welcome mat for anyone who wants to be helpful. If they get out of line, I'll be the first to send a blistering email...but if I thought that was going to happen, we wouldn't have them here in the first place.

[Anderton]

Okay, now about the "Kids who come out of recording schools are useless" post.

 

Having done classes at various schools, I can say that the students vary widely. Some kids are clearly there because their parents have bucks and want to get rid of them for a few years, the kid says "Hey, I think I'll be a big-time recording engineer!!," and they end up in the school. Others have worked their asses off with cassette-based 4-tracks in high school, want to make audio a career, and save up their bucks so they can get to the next level. It's a joy to teach to these kids, because they're there to soak up info like a sponge, they love what they do, and they're dedicated as hell.

 

You can't expect a school to magically turn a slacker into someone humble and talented. Nor can you expect a school to supply someone who's genuinely talented with a career. If a kid comes out of school and acts like a jerk, he/she/it was probably a jerk prior to going to school. Hopefully upon graduation it will at least be a jerk who knows how to coil a cable.

 

But I'll add one more thing: what you're complaining about with the attitude of the kids IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE SCHOOL. Our society has a problem, the "gimme something" mentality. I've been giving seminars for 25 years. During that time, I've seen a radical change in attitude of people who come to seminars. In the 70s, there was a lot of raising of hands, asking of questions, and interactivity. Over the past few decades, the attitude has degenerated into more of a "Okay I'm here, tell me all the tricks I need to make a hit record so I can get out here." In Canada, Mexico, and Europe, there is still a genuine thirst for learning, and it's really fun to do seminars over there. But here, people expect a seminar to substitute for - not augment - a vigorous learning process.

 

Schools alone cannot reverse this trend. This is a societal problem that exists in all aspects of education, not just audio schools. All the schools can do is impart knowledge and hopefully, inspire their students to learn more on their own as well. But they can't hold a gun to the student's heads and say "Don't act like a jerk." It's too late for that by the time they're headed off to college.

[Anderton]

One more post, then I'll shut up.

 

As to the "Take the money you'd spent on tuition, get some gear, and work with it every day" approach, I have mixed feelings. At first glance, that's the approach I took, and I turned out okay . But I was also fortunate enough to be a touring and recording musician at age 18. I did session work and was able to watch some of the world's best engineers and producers in action. That was an incredible education, but one that I could not have pulled off on my own.

 

There is great value in interacting with people - just about any musician knows this. In a school situation, you get different viewpoints and get to work with different people. At Berklee, I sat in on a class once on synthesis and the assignment for that day was "Make music with a synth without touching the keyboard." The kids were thrown at first, but then they started hooking up fader boxes, foot pedals, assigning them to parameters, and making some cool sounds. Would someone have some up with that idea on their own? Maybe, maybe not. But I think that was a great exercise.

 

A truly self-motivated person doesn't need schools, money, or gear: they'll figure out some way to get what they want. As the old saying goes, give a real musician a pair of spoons, and they'll make music; give a non-musician a million dollar studio, and they'll make crap. But even the motivated can move along faster in their chosen field if they get some education. At this point in my life, I truly regret never having taken any classes in harmony, or DSP programming for that matter. Maybe next lifetime http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

And no, Mark isn't going to delete this post because I said something nice about Berklee!! Let me digress for a minute about self-interest. It is in SAE's self-interest to educate people. It is in SAE's interest for Full Sail, Berklee, Recording Workshop, etc. etc. to be successful because that will raise the bar for everyone. Students will be more knowledgeable, it will be easier to attract good teachers, the quality of recordings will hopefully improve...a rising tide lifts all boats, and ALL people involved with audio education are invited to participate in this forum.

 

Okay, I'll shut up now.

[Anderton]

Okay, I lied...one more post...

 

To those who are concerned about SAE hosting this forum, I can't help but point out that when I logged on, there was a banner for the Recording Workshop spread across the top. The point of this forum is AUDIO EDUCATION.

[mastermind]

Practice, Practice, Practice.

[videoeditor1]

Mark, Craig,

 

SAE is the sponsor of this forum? I am SO offended!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

 

I don't smoke, and I've lost more than enuff friends & enemies to lung cancer, but I'm as willing as the next guy to rush out and buy tickets to the "XYZ" brand sponsored concert etc.

 

I'm in my 30's, and I've already put in my 15+ years in audio, in addition to degrees in math & electrical engineering, going to an audio school would probably expose me to some stuff I never picked up along the way, but would typically be, a inefficient use of capital.

 

My younger brother is 19, and I don't think he's going to "audio school" any time soon. He'd better PARK HIS ASS in college, do some serious mental exercises, atain some knowledge, a degree and an education (in that order), and work gigs /sessions with me evenings & weekends.

 

What am I saying?

 

1. Audio school is not for everyone.

2. There are always multiple paths to success. Energy & perserverence required to get there.

3. You don't have to fetch coffee & clean bathrooms to get your foot in the industry. Howewver, look at the police force. Have you ever seen them hire a Captain or a Lieutenant off the street? It's always the guy that walked the beat, and came up thru the ranks - you gotta pay your dues.

 

4. A "SAE" sponsored forum is better than no forum at all...

 

This message has been edited by NYC Drew on 04-28-2001 at 07:22 AM

[GL1]

Why you would shell out the dough that would get you a great liberal arts education and teach you to read, write, think, and communicate just to get a damn sales job and the opportunity to wear a tie with jeans

 

Architectural Degreed person asks..... How is it done?

Engineering Degreed preson asks....... WHy does it work?

Liberal Arts Degreed person asks...... Would you like fries with that?

 

 

(not too shabby for a first post.... huh?) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Just goofing ou ya guys...

Michael