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Why are so many musicians politically left-leaning?


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Originally posted by jtegan@tiac.net:

Liberalism is not Communism. Indeed American liberals renounced Communism and Sociialism decades ago. The association of Liberalism, Communism and Socialism is a successful obfuscation by right wing PR efforts.

 

Joe

 

The association you protest was never made. My point was that you connot make generalizations implying that the left thinks and the right doesn't. - You can, but it shows your bias.

 

Every flavor of politics from nihilism to autocracy will have its share of thinkers as well as its share of drones who simply follow the crowd. I don't lump Democrats with Communists any more than I lump Republicans with Fascists. Nevertheless, I protest the "those people don't think" idea, regardless of which flavor of right vs. left you're discussing. I'm sure we can all list examples of mindless left-wing actions and easily as mindless right-wing actions.

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Originally posted by DeluxeReverb:

Rold-

 

 

If you think all conservatives are similar to your far-left fanatical examples of "evil conservatives", you are simply wrong. If you want to be less wrong in the future, you may choose to do a bit more research, if only for the purpose of "knowing thine enemy". http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

That was the point! Your post that Liberalism was close to Socialism is the same kind of mistake in kind.

 

joe

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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

The association you protest was never made. My point was that you connot make generalizations implying that the left thinks and the right doesn't. - You can, but it shows your bias.

............... I'm sure we can all list examples of mindless left-wing actions and easily as mindless right-wing actions.

 

You're right. You didn't makke an explicit association of Liberalism with Socialism and Communism. You made an association of the left wing with the Kmer Rouge. Kmer Rouge is an extreme barbaric communistic party. I don't know of any left-wing American that wasn't against what happened in Cambodia. Indeed the American left wing critized American policies during the Vietnam conflict that weakened the established Cambodian government and led to the grwoth of the Kmer Rouge.

 

Joe

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I said Liberalism is close to Socialism, and it is...certainly more akin than Conservativism and Socialism. It's not the *same* as Socialism, but in the sense that Conservativism has much in common with Libertarianism, I think the comparison stands up. There are no Republicans listed at the link I gave of Socialist congress members...

 

I don't get your admonition regarding what I posted to Rold about "seeing hard-liners of either ideology as typical of the majority" and my comparing Socialism as a school of thought to Liberalism. I fail to see any hypocrisy on my part, as the statements are unrelated.

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Originally posted by DeluxeReverb:

I said Liberalism is close to Socialism, and it is...certainly more akin than Conservativism and Socialism. It's not the *same* as Socialism, but in the sense that Conservativism has much in common with Libertarianism, I think the comparison stands up. There are no Republicans listed at the link I gave of Socialist congress members...

 

I went to the link you gave and I didn't find any listing of elected Democratic Congressmen that are Socialists.

 

I don't get your admonition regarding what I posted to Rold about "seeing hard-liners of either ideology as typical of the majority" and my comparing Socialism as a school of thought to Liberalism. I fail to see any hypocrisy on my part, as the statements are unrelated.

 

It's pretty apparent that you've bought into the the erosion of the definition of Liberalism that's fostered by current right wing propaganda. I quoted below what I think is a relable definition of Liberalism and one that conforms with my perspective:

 

http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/27650.html

 

liberalism,

philosophy or movement that has as its aim the

development of individual freedom. Because the

concepts of liberty or freedom change in different

historical periods the specific programs of liberalism

also change. The final aim of liberalism, however,

remains fixed, as does its characteristic belief not only

in essential human goodness but also in human

rationality. Liberalism assumes that people, having a

rational intellect, have the ability to recognize problems

and solve them and thus can achieve systematic

improvement in the human condition. Often opposed to

liberalism is the doctrine of conservatism, which,

simply stated, supports the maintenance of the status

quo. Liberalism, which seeks what it considers to be

improvement or progress, necessarily desires to

change the existing order.

 

Socialism and Communism in general have a specific meaning regarding the state ownership of industry and regulation of the economy. For instance Socialism would entail the state ownership of electrical utilites. I don't think you can find one elected Democratic Congressman that is calling for the government ownership of any industry. Some would argue that subsidies to industries such as the tobacco industry constitutes Socialism because it involves State direction of economic activity. In such a case many Republicans would qualify as Socialists.

 

Since you haven't established how Liberalism is like Socialism in a specific mannner or understandable manner I find your assertion that Liberalism and Socialism are akin as puzzling.

 

Joe

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On liberalism and socialism, again, we need to be clear what we're talking about. As formal political philosophies, they are quite different. As actually practiced, there are some occasional similarities (for instance, some liberals support socialized medicine, which might be called a socialist concept. many conservatives support federal subsidies of various businesses, which is also a form of socialism), though liberalism generally has a pro-market position whereas socialism is more willing to limit market involvement. Want to see what socialism is about? Check out the socialist parties in France, Sweden, and elsewhere that have actually held power based on free elections. They have marked differences with the liberal parties in their countries.

 

Communism, well, that's a word that's been spoiled by decades of despotism. Seems like there's a new atrocity every other day committed by the Chinese state.

 

Best,

--JES

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Originally posted by EWF:

Don't complain about it. Even though it's hard to do since we all take our freedom for granted, embrace the government that allows you to rant the way you want, when you want, without being sent to prison or being shot to death.

 

Hmm.

 

There's a Russian guy in jail right now here in the U.S. because he talked about a program that cracked Adobe's crytography...

 

"Freedom" is an illusion in the U.S.. You *can't* rant as you want. Right now you can on the Net - and notice they want it "regulated". Try standing on a sidewalk and proclaiming your political views to the People and see what happens with your "freedom".

 

It's an illusion. You have "Freedom" within proscribed limits provided you have first filled out all of the right forms and have been approved by committee and arranged the proper time in which to have your bit of "freedom" - which must not be too licentious, or else you may land in jail for inciting a riot, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, or merely "disturbing the peace". Forget handing out hand bills; that's against the law. Freedom? You'd better move along or else your personal freedom is going to be restricted to a jail cell for loitering.

 

You have "freedom" to say what you want if you have your own property somewhere in the woods away from everyone so that no one can hear you recite your beliefs. Otherwise, you'd better have a lot of money and good lawyers when you exercise your "freedom".

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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************************************************************************

Here are some actual facts for you regarding crime and race in America:

 

According to the latest US Department of Justice survey of crime victims, more than 6.6 million violent crimes (murder, rape, assault and robbery) are committed in the US each year, of which about 20 per cent, or 1.3 million, are interracial crimes.

 

* Most victims of race crime - about 90 percent - are white, according to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims", published in 1993.

 

* Almost 1 million white Americans were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by black Americans in 1992, compared with about 132,000 blacks who were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by whites, according to the same survey.

 

* Blacks thus committed 7.5 times more violent interracial crimes than whites even though the black population is only one-seventh the size of the white population. When these figures are adjusted on a per capita basis, they reveal an extraordinary disparity: blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites.

 

* According to the latest annual report on murder by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, most interracial murders involve black assailants and white victims, with blacks murdering whites at 18 times the rate that whites murder blacks

 

 

Dear sir, you seem to have many negative ideas about my people ,and are using statistics to reinforce those ideas.Concerning your crime stats,they could be used to justify, Harold's views about racism and oppression,as well.Simply a matter of interpetation.Also your use of conservative blacks and jews to reinforce your views, proves nothing,other than the fact that people are people and that ideas can and do differ even within groups.

I do agree that some people will use racism as an excuse for self defeating

behavior,and that others, so called leaders,will exploit those feelings to their own benefit,but RACISM and it's EFFECTS are VERY REAL,and not just where you find it when your skin is BLACK.

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination and can be no such thing until the playing field is level,but it's great mantra for those with the agenda of keeping the status quo,and the races divided.

All this talk about liberal vs. Conservative is in the end just BULLsh... (IMHO) because no matter who is in control the education of poor children ((black,white,whatever)is second rate and remains so,therefore THE STATUS IS QUO !!!

I don't know you and hope this not taken as a personal attack, are such.

I suspect you are just a working Joe like myself trying to make ends meet,

and hope that you can go deeper than Stats & Mantras to see that blacks are no different than other people and that if the table were turned the stats and mantras would be the same,simply because the GAME is the SAME.

Please forgive the long post and I hope it makes some sense to you,(my first ever post on any forum)

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Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

Hmm.

 

There's a Russian guy in jail right now here in the U.S. because he talked about a program that cracked Adobe's crytography...

 

"Freedom" is an illusion in the U.S.. You *can't* rant as you want. Right now you can on the Net - and notice they want it "regulated". Try standing on a sidewalk and proclaiming your political views to the People and see what happens with your "freedom".

 

It's an illusion. You have "Freedom" within proscribed limits provided you have first filled out all of the right forms and have been approved by committee and arranged the proper time in which to have your bit of "freedom" - which must not be too licentious, or else you may land in jail for inciting a riot, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, or merely "disturbing the peace". Forget handing out hand bills; that's against the law. Freedom? You'd better move along or else your personal freedom is going to be restricted to a jail cell for loitering.

 

You have "freedom" to say what you want if you have your own property somewhere in the woods away from everyone so that no one can hear you recite your beliefs. Otherwise, you'd better have a lot of money and good lawyers when you exercise your "freedom".

 

Ain't that the truth!

meh
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Originally posted by RonB:

 

Dear sir, you seem to have many negative ideas about my people ,and are using statistics to reinforce those ideas.Concerning your crime stats,they could be used to justify, Harold's views about racism and oppression,as well.Simply a matter of interpetation.Also your use of conservative blacks and jews to reinforce your views, proves nothing,other than the fact that people are people and that ideas can and do differ even within groups.

I do agree that some people will use racism as an excuse for self defeating

behavior,and that others, so called leaders,will exploit those feelings to their own benefit,but RACISM and it's EFFECTS are VERY REAL,and not just where you find it when your skin is BLACK.

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination and can be no such thing until the playing field is level,but it's great mantra for those with the agenda of keeping the status quo,and the races divided.

All this talk about liberal vs. Conservative is in the end just BULLsh... (IMHO) because no matter who is in control the education of poor children ((black,white,whatever)is second rate and remains so,therefore THE STATUS IS QUO !!!

I don't know you and hope this not taken as a personal attack, are such.

I suspect you are just a working Joe like myself trying to make ends meet,

and hope that you can go deeper than Stats & Mantras to see that blacks are no different than other people and that if the table were turned the stats and mantras would be the same,simply because the GAME is the SAME.

Please forgive the long post and I hope it makes some sense to you,(my first ever post on any forum)

 

Hi RonB:

 

Thanks for the dose of reality! Welcome to the group.. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

It's a wee bit upsetting listening to people try and tell you racism doesn't exist in the mainstream. Can't deal with a problem if it doesn't exist right? I've visited various online forums and it's pretty disturbing reading people's posts about how they're sick of being "politically correct." Saying one thing to someone and then treating them badly makes political correctness useless. May as well be up front with the feelings so the real underlying problem can be dealt with up front.

 

And then to hear about cross burnings and "whites only" signs, imprisonment rates based on race, police brutality, etc. etc - this aint no "peaches and cream, everyone love each other regardless..." existance.

meh
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Originally posted by mr. rob:

I beleive in the need of government to set standards so that people arent exploited by corporations.

 

yes, but the government allows corporations to exist. it is the government who allows the limited-liability individual to exist. then they cast themselves as the antidote, the remedy to the problem for which they are the cause.

 

i'll tell you this, a snake doesn't offer his venom gladly to his victim, when the venom could be used to develop an antidote. and yet, why do government types cast themselves as protectors against the evil corporations?

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Originally posted by rold:

We just had a tainted water tragedy where one conservative premier's financial cutbacks and decisions killed seven people and sickened every last person in a town of thousands. No apology; he really doesn't "care".

 

damn the system that puts an arrogant lawyer in charge of people's water supply.

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Hi Harold,

Thanks for the welcome to the forum.I normally just browse this forum to

pick up some of the knowledge of the members(great place for that).I agree

with you,we do need to love or at least respect oneanother(the human family).Maybe one day when all the old farts(boomers) like myself are long gone,with all our hangups,the kids will take it to a new, hopefully better, world,where like Deluxreverb stated people will be judged as individuals.I have seen the white only signs,and I have had to go to the back alley window of a place to be served food.Those events happened in my childhood(i'm 49 now),and to be honest I'm still scared mentally from those and other events due to racism.Still, I love this country for the changes that have ocurred since my youth.The sad thing is that many young black and white children don't have a clue and take those changes for granted.Still, I have a lot of hope for this country,(and the world also),because a lot of the kids are smarter and do see the present system and game (politcal,religious,economic)for what it is.In other words they're not growing up beleiving in santa claus.When we don't infect them with our hangups and bull they seem to just naturally come together for the most part and get along.

Anyway,thanks again for the welcome. PEACE RonB

...........................................................................

Hi RonB:

 

Thanks for the dose of reality! Welcome to the group..

 

It's a wee bit upsetting listening to people try and tell you racism doesn't exist in the mainstream. Can't deal with a problem if it doesn't exist right? I've visited various online forums and it's pretty disturbing reading people's posts about how they're sick of being "politically correct." Saying one thing to someone and then treating them badly makes political correctness useless. May as well be up front with the feelings so the real underlying problem can be dealt with up front.

 

And then to hear about cross burnings and "whites only" signs, imprisonment rates based on race, police brutality, etc. etc - this aint no "peaches and cream, everyone love each other regardless..." existance.

..........................................................................

 

 

This message has been edited by RonB on 07-26-2001 at 05:10 PM

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interesting. the dictionary definition of liberalism as provided by jes is precisely the liberalism that I have espoused since the days of my youth. Ironically, and I am surprised -or perhaps not surprised- the Democratic party agenda has abandoned allegiance to such an idealism. That definition really sounds much closer to the conservatives professed (not presumed or actual) agenda. That is why I left the Democratic party a long time ago, although I find no home with the Republicans either.

 

It is amazing to me how far away from your personal beliefs your party grows if you don't stay on top of what they are up to. Of course, raising children causes one to, in some instances, radically modify their personal position on things as well. I know it has for me and most of my friends agree.

 

I have followed the political scene in the US pretty closely again for the past 5 or 6 years and from what I can see, this debate over whether or not liberal democrats are socialists, communists etc. or whether, the 2 ideas can coincide with each other, stems from, in my observation, the idea that the Democratic party has just plain changed. It is definitely more socialistically motivated and wants bigger government control and wants us to have less control over our lives than it did when I was younger. It has a big brother agenda that is antithetical to the liberal idealism that it claimed to be a proponent of in the 60's and early 70's.

 

Perhaps the problem is that we have just become a very selfish people. That is pretty obvious. And that selfishness serves only to further reduce "TRUE" liberalism to some utopian pie in the sky kind of idealism that will never be realized.

 

As I peruse these posts, I find far more hatred spouting off from the left than from the right. Passion, as well intended as it may be, turned to hatred will certainly kill the liberal cause as it is already doing. Who in the hell are we fooling by claiming to want equality and freedom of speech and belief and then using that "freedom" to squelch and ridicule the voice of others with whom we don't agree? In so doing we have become our own worst enemy....and that is precisely what I see many Democratic leaders doing. Hypocrisy.

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Originally posted by synaes:

yes, but the government allows corporations to exist. it is the government who allows the limited-liability individual to exist. then they cast themselves as the antidote, the remedy to the problem for which they are the cause.

 

i'll tell you this, a snake doesn't offer his venom gladly to his victim, when the venom could be used to develop an antidote. and yet, why do government types cast themselves as protectors against the evil corporations?

 

"Funny" how the government a corporation in itself.

 

It must be the money. Pay offs for publicly representing private interests. Damn this WTO/G8 stuff - they're doing their best to break down trade barriers and send us all to hell. You know something's up when you have so many people from various interests and backgrounds protesting all of this - over 200 000 protesters since the Seattle summit. Anarchists side by side with Christian groups. I wonder how long it's been since Government actually represented the voters?

meh
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Originally posted by synaes:

damn the system that puts an arrogant lawyer in charge of people's water supply.

 

Damn the system indeed.

 

One thing I really like is the system is illustrating what they really represent; they're beginning to expose their own lies.

 

Both Bush and Chretien keep going on about how the globalization protesters are trying to break down democracy. IMO, there is nothing democratic about negotiations which don't even try to involve the grassroots, much less take their concerns into account. Such a blatant lie calling this a democracy.

meh
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Originally posted by RonB:

Hi Harold,

Thanks for the welcome to the forum.

 

Hey, no worries Ron. I'm fairly new here too, and I love hearing from people with different backgrounds and interests... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

I have seen the white only signs,and I have had to go to the back alley window of a place to be served food. Those events happened in my childhood(i'm 49 now),and to be honest I'm still scared mentally from those and other events due to racism.

 

Shit man, that's harsh. In a TINY way I can relate; I am white, and have natural dreadlocks and the since I let my hair become dreaded (3 years ago), the way people have treated me has changed dramatically. I get mostly dirty looks from the elderly (70+), I can't get a seat in certain restaurants, and on the Canadian east coast I have even been told to get to the back of the bus and hassled for being in the "wrong neighborhood". I won't pretend to compare this to what things were like 30 years ago, but I have a small understanding.

 

Still, I love this country for the changes that have ocurred since my youth.The sad thing is that many young black and white children don't have a clue and take those changes for granted..

 

I wish there were more educational programs for kids in this regard. We have a black history month, though where black people don't live it's not at all recognized although the white kids need this more than anyone else. However, there is no such thing as native history month, which I think deserves a lot of attention as well, as well as Hindu, Asian, European, African, Hebrew, etc., etc. Wish the periods of respect lasted a lot longer than a month, though!

 

Still, I have a lot of hope for this country,(and the world also),because a lot of the kids are smarter and do see the present system and game (politcal,religious,economic)for what it is.In other words they're not growing up beleiving in santa claus.When we don't infect them with our hangups and bull they seem to just naturally come together for the most part and get along.

Anyway,thanks again for the welcome.

 

I hope the next generation grows up without these prejudices at all. Racism is such a silly thing. I read a scientific study once that said the difference between the white and black genes is 0.8%. How in the hell people managed to make such a big deal out of it I'd one day like to learn.

 

Good to have you here Ron!

 

Harold

meh
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Originally posted by b3wiz:

interesting. the dictionary definition of liberalism as provided by jes is precisely the liberalism that I have espoused since the days of my youth. Ironically, and I am surprised -or perhaps not surprised- the Democratic party agenda has abandoned allegiance to such an idealism. That definition really sounds much closer to the conservatives professed (not presumed or actual) agenda. That is why I left the Democratic party a long time ago, although I find no home with the Republicans either.

 

That's what I was saying re: the blurring of political sides. There doesn't seem to be a political left and a right, more like a race towards the same thing but in slightly different ways: power and wealth.

 

I have followed the political scene in the US pretty closely again for the past 5 or 6 years and from what I can see, this debate over whether or not liberal democrats are socialists, communists etc. or whether, the 2 ideas can coincide with each other, stems from, in my observation, the idea that the Democratic party has just plain changed. It is definitely more socialistically motivated and wants bigger government control and wants us to have less control over our lives than it did when I was younger. It has a big brother agenda that is antithetical to the liberal idealism that it claimed to be a proponent of in the 60's and early 70's.

 

Perfect illustration as to why the two party system does not work. There are Stalin type leftists as there are Gandhi-type. The point you make here is Authoritarianism Vs. Libertarianism, and Democratic vs. Conservative is a different dimension altogether.

 

Perhaps the problem is that we have just become a very selfish people. That is pretty obvious. And that selfishness serves only to further reduce "TRUE" liberalism to some utopian pie in the sky kind of idealism that will never be realized.

 

Totally agreed. In Canada a criminal would get worse punishment for property damage than he would get for rape.

 

 

As I peruse these posts, I find far more hatred spouting off from the left than from the right. Passion, as well intended as it may be, turned to hatred will certainly kill the liberal cause as it is already doing. Who in the hell are we fooling by claiming to want equality and freedom of speech and belief and then using that "freedom" to squelch and ridicule the voice of others with whom we don't agree? In so doing we have become our own worst enemy....

 

I think this stems from total frustration with the system and the status quo. I think left wingers are more frustrated with everything because we are, by nature more interested in change than we are with keeping things the way they are - ie, conserving.

 

Bringing the globalization issue into this regard, it's obvious both sides of the board are frustrated with what's going on. In Genoa, police beat up Christian protesters with the same zeal as they did ultra left-wing anarchists. With this issue, I don't think it's left side vs. right side anymore, it's the Average Joe vs. Big Business. Until the grassroots have at least some say in the way things turn out, I really think there's a bigger problem at hand than left vs. right.

meh
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dont tell me no one saw mass globalization coming? an the internet made it all that much quicker.

 

"As through a glass darkly you seek yourself,

But the light grows weak while under Yggsdrasil.

A basket of eggs may you count your days.

Though your gut lies filled, only shells remain."

-neil fallon

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Yep, you said it rold!

I'd be laughing real hard if it wasn't so true....

-Lee

 

Yep, same here.

 

This will officially mark the first thing I've printed off here and posted on my fridge...Thanks Lee... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

meh
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Oh my God! I get done dealing with an office full of simpleminded conservatives who couldn't understand a complex social issue if you explained it with fingerpaints. Then I log on and find the forum overrun by "protect me, I'm powerless" cowering liberal crybabies. Aren't there any nice, sane moderates out there? Somewhere?

 

Toxifying the environment is a horrible act perpetrated by murdurously greedy individuals. We can't possibly win all of the battles against these monsters, but in many countries, individuals at least have the right to file suit and demonstrate and - are you ready for this - NOT be taken away in the middle of the night and jailed, tortured, and killed.

 

Nevertheless, in many other nations, this is still a possibility. If you live in a country with an oppressive government, my heart goes out to you. Be very careful. But if you live in the US or Canada or Britain of Japan or Germany, etc. and all you do is sit on the sidelines complaining, then you're not exercising the rights that your forefathers died to give you. Fight back and stop whining about those Blue Meany corporations and all of the terrible things that they do. They do a lot of good things, too, or they'd be out of business. Use your power as a citizen to put them on the right track or shut them down!

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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Oh my God! I get done dealing with an office full of simpleminded conservatives who couldn't understand a complex social issue if you explained it with fingerpaints. Then I log on and find the forum overrun by "protect me, I'm powerless" cowering liberal crybabies. Aren't there any nice, sane moderates out there? Somewhere?

 

Toxifying the environment is a horrible act perpetrated by murdurously greedy individuals. We can't possibly win all of the battles against these monsters, but in many countries, individuals at least have the right to file suit and demonstrate and - are you ready for this - NOT be taken away in the middle of the night and jailed, tortured, and killed.

 

Nevertheless, in many other nations, this is still a possibility. If you live in a country with an oppressive government, my heart goes out to you. Be very careful. But if you live in the US or Canada or Britain of Japan or Germany, etc. and all you do is sit on the sidelines complaining, then you're not exercising the rights that your forefathers died to give you. Fight back and stop whining about those Blue Meany corporations and all of the terrible things that they do. They do a lot of good things, too, or they'd be out of business. Use your power as a citizen to put them on the right track or shut them down!

 

Dan, you think you don't live in a country with an oppressive government...

then don't pay your taxes.They might not kill you, but I bet they'll make you wish you were dead. All jokes aside,you make a good point about fighting back. I just don't understand the simpleminded conservative,crybaby liberal,and sane moderate labels you used starting out your post.

I think that labels such as those only serve to divide and weaken the citizens no matter what country, which in effect neutralizes the power of the people under any type of government.(IMHO) PEACE RonB

 

This message has been edited by RonB on 07-27-2001 at 01:18 AM

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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Oh my God! I get done dealing with an office full of simpleminded conservatives who couldn't understand a complex social issue if you explained it with fingerpaints. Then I log on and find the forum overrun by "protect me, I'm powerless" cowering liberal crybabies. Aren't there any nice, sane moderates out there? Somewhere?

 

Bad day at the office, Dan?... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Toxifying the environment is a horrible act perpetrated by murdurously greedy individuals. We can't possibly win all of the battles against these monsters, but in many countries, individuals at least have the right to file suit and demonstrate and - are you ready for this - NOT be taken away in the middle of the night and jailed, tortured, and killed.

 

Nevertheless, in many other nations, this is still a possibility. If you live in a country with an oppressive government, my heart goes out to you. Be very careful. But if you live in the US or Canada or Britain of Japan or Germany, etc. and all you do is sit on the sidelines complaining, then you're not exercising the rights that your forefathers died to give you.

 

I consider this drumming up support as opposed to whining. Any kind of political battle needs public support and the more people there are to back a movement, the stronger it is. These things must be talked about outside of the usual protest groups in order to gain a stronger, more diverse group of people which is needed to overthrow something as massive as a multinational corporate takeover.

 

This week I have made a proposal to adbusters.org to host a forum to pull the various anti-globalization movements together, begun design on an eductional commercial for them, I have already started making arrangements to be at the next G8 summit in Alberta, and I have written 6 letters to 4 major newspapers' editors. Though you may not see me standing on a street corner preaching my word, I hardly call this "sitting on the sidelines complaining."

 

Fight back and stop whining about those Blue Meany corporations and all of the terrible things that they do. They do a lot of good things, too, or they'd be out of business.

 

Oh? What has your neighbourhood chemical pesticide company done for you lately? How about your average multinational logging corporation? How about the nearby coal-fired power plant?

 

Use your power as a citizen to put them on the right track or shut them down!

 

That's just what I'm attempting to help do, Dan. Now take a pill, will ya? Preferably something organic and non-corporate.. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Peace,

 

Harold

meh
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Two thoughts:

 

DanSouth: How come you assume that people writing on the forums aren't also doing activist things outside the forums? I didn't know we needed to bring a resume to the discussion.

 

B3wiz -- like you, I'm alienated from the dems (probably for different reasons, since I wouldn't call myself a liberal). My theory is that as the party eroded the constituency they built earlier in the century, they lost all sense of purpose. Now, it's not like the repubs are coherent either, but there are a couple of core powerful positions in that party with clear ideological platforms. And they're consistent. Not so with the dems!

 

--JES

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i kinda like that cartoon. bitch about starbucks but their coffee is damn good. i buy their beans now and make it at home because i can make it even better. sure there are some other good coffees out there but i like theirs. we just got one where i live and before starbucks [b.S.] it really sucked. all the coffee places around here had weak ass shit. still do. i found 1 place who ALMOST makes it as good as starbucks but not quite. anyone see the southpark episode about it?

 

sometimes when im travelling around i like to have the familiar available. i LIKE mcdonalds, their fries are one of the best inventions of the 20th century. mmmmm. i have been in foreign countries and had to eat their local cuisine and sometimes its pretty good but after a couple meals i like seeing a mcdonalds i can pop into and get my fries and they taste just like they do everywhere else. call me conservative. i dont fucking care.

 

about these g8 summits and the protestors, i dunno. it just isnt something to die for. that one kid was shot and then run over. aint that a kick in the face. im kinda all for opening up the borders, its about fucking time. i could see a worldwide democracy setup fairly easily.

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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I love to stir up trouble. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Pesticide company? Pesticides are overused and probably the cause of a good number of serious health issues in humans and many other species. However, after having my house infested with fleas from a racoon who decided to live in my chimney last winter, I was willing to make an exception and bomb the house with RAID. I'm glad that the product exists. Applied carefully, it's a boon. Applied liberally, it's a curse.

 

Drumming up support - I'm all for it, and I think that this thread has uncovered lots of issues that need to be addressed (although many others have not yet received mention). I was hoping to stir things up a bit, because the thread started sounding a little directionless. If you have these convictions and some energy, I hope you'll fight the good fight instead of grumbling on the sidelines, as I said. If you're already fighting the good fight, thanks for your efforts; I'm proud to know you.

 

The "simpleminded conservatives" reference refers to the contents of a previous post. Plus I work with a couple of otherwise bright people who see the world in black and white. Period. Liberals seem to see the world in shades of gray, instead. Liberals seem more willing to consider the merits of individual cases instead of making gross generalizations. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of "all corporations are evil" nonsense in this thread, so I guess that liberals have their foibles, too.

 

Being stuck in the middle is interesting. I see the value of many conservative ideals (fiscal responsibility, profit motive, national defense, individual freedoms), but the conservatives consider me a leftist. I personally champion many liberal ideals (human rights, open borders, environmental protection, privacy), but liberals consider me an elitist at best, a fascist at worst. I see everyone's point, and I see everyone's excesses. It's like watching Archie and Meathead bicker on All In The Family. You recognize that both of them have valid arguments and both of them are full of it at the same time. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

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As proof of my point about "political parties" being a decoy to distract the populace from the real world...

 

... Note how much energy is being put into this thread versus one about music.

 

It's not about left/right, Republican/Democrat...

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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Originally posted by alphajerk:

bitch about starbucks but their coffee is damn good. i buy their beans now and make it at home because i can make it even better. sure there are some other good coffees out there but i like theirs. we just got one where i live and before starbucks [b.S.] it really sucked. all the coffee places around here had weak ass shit. still do. i found 1 place who ALMOST makes it as good as starbucks but not quite. anyone see the southpark episode about it?

 

I like their coffee too, aj. I'd even buy it if I didn't see starbuckses kitty corner to each other for FOUR fucking consecutive blocks in any major city I've been to. They're going about this a weee bit too agressively, if you ask me. Did you hear about the Starbucks in the Forbidden City?...lol

 

sometimes when im travelling around i like to have the familiar available. i LIKE mcdonalds, their fries are one of the best inventions of the 20th century. mmmmm. i have been in foreign countries and had to eat their local cuisine and sometimes its pretty good but after a couple meals i like seeing a mcdonalds i can pop into and get my fries and they taste just like they do everywhere else..

 

Now this is where I draw the line.

 

First, how would you feel if they bulldozed down that gorgeous scenery you have off your deck to make room for their expanding cow farms? They sponsor that kind of activity all the time.

 

Secondly, just like the cartoon - when I travel to a different country (the US being the exception), I want a different culture. I don't want to see kids wearing Gap clothes, I don't want to hear the same manufactured shit on the radio I hear at home, and I definitely don't want to see McDonalds, Starbucks and Walmart outlets. You go to South America to experience South America, not North America expanding soutwards. Same goes for Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. etc. Keep up the expansion and everything will be westernized; your vacation will consist of experiencing america with a different language.

 

 

call me conservative. i dont fucking care.

 

Conservative bastard... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

about these g8 summits and the protestors, i dunno. it just isnt something to die for. that one kid was shot and then run over. aint that a kick in the face. im kinda all for opening up the borders, its about fucking time. i could see a worldwide democracy setup fairly easily.

 

I've personally experienced the effects of free trade and open borders. Canada can't deny the shipping of US toxic waste to be dumped here, we can't stop US-based multinationals clearcutting our rain forests and shipping the revenues back into the US, our local Mom and Pop stores are being kicked out by Walmarts, we can't ship our local potatoes in our own country without US approval, and our dollar has decreased in value 40% thanks to this. Shit man, we even have the DEA here fighting your drug war on our turf, paying off major coke dealers hundreds of thousands to narc out pot growers - this is an ugly fucking scene!

 

You see my point?

meh
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well i gotta get my meat from somewhere. although nanny obriens in DC takes the prize for the best buger ever made. mmmmmm. they arent being run out by mcD's.

 

well the conservatives see in b/w, the liberals see in greys, i see in color.

 

ive been to south america and at times i WELCOMED a mcD's to eat at. and a lot of these corporate establishments serve a LOT better than mom and pop stores. take best buys for instance. i can get a good number of cd's that mom and pops dont stock and when they do, it costs $4 more than at best buys. im actually suprised at best buys sometimes... even carry some of my weird ass music tastes. what about huge resorts who build huge complexes cutting off the beachs that were once open to the locals. they do employ hem providing work and a paycheck. there are always tradeoffs.

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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