Riding the fence on a new purchase.....

[strat0124]

Wondering if you guys with the digital workstations could offer some info for someone with cash in hand, but hasn't made up his mind which unit to buy....

Do you upload your songs digitally to your computer to edit? If so what software do you use? How tough was the learning curve on the new gear? If you could buy a new unit, which one would it be? I'm thinking stand-alone units.....

Thanks

Gene

[dterrykeyofd.net]

Gene,

 

For a full workstation in the $5k to $20k range (depending on config) - I would have to recommend Paris. The sound quality is phenomenal; you not only have the luxury of combining an expandable computer-based (Mac or PC) DAW with great editing features, but major release calibre mixing and no-latency tracking. Editing will be much easier in Paris than a standalone with a VGA port. Paris also works very well as a full mixer and can replace a traditional console, if you so desire, making the process easier than transferring back and forth from other tracking media - either track in, or transfer to Paris and work from there. If you prefer to mix on a console, it can also function as a HD playback system, but IMO, that would miss some of Paris' best features - mixing and analogish sound. I don't know what your price range is, or specific application, but it sounds like this might be a good option for you since Paris can be expanded as your needs and budget require. Feel free to email me offline if you want to talk more in depth.

 

Regards,

Dedric

[Sp3nc3r]

If your leaning towards a stand-alone, give the Mackie HDR24-96 a good look. It's worked flawlessly for me for the six months we've had it.

 

Good price, too, for all of the editing power you get when you plug in a mouse, monitor, and keyboard.

 

Any other suggestions, forum-goers? The more the merrier.

 

Spencer

[Bonafide]

Hey Strat0124,

 

What are some specific needs? How many tracks (Physical) do you need? Effects? Do you have any outboard reverbs, comps, etc. Do you need aux's, inserts,? Are you mainly recording yourself, a band, sometimes other musicians? My guess is that you are not looking into the 5k-10k range. My whole studio cost about 15k and I can get world-class recordings out of it with todays technology.

 

Cheers.

[Botch.]

Question for Dedric: my local music store stopped carrying Ensoniq products many years ago because of very poor reliability. The Paris system is now made by Emu/Ensoniq, I was wondering if your Paris exhibits Ensoniq-like reliability or good Emu reliability?

[strat0124]

You guys have to understand that I've been in analog eight track land for the past 12 years, so this is a MAJOR step for me. I want at least 16 tracks, digital I/O, inserts, semi-smooth learning curve, and I don't want to spend over 4K. I would love analog direct outs, don't know if that's possible within the price range or if it's offered in the format.

I'll be recording my band(s), side projects, and friends stuff mostly....I don't envision anything beyond that. I've been recording alot of folks for only medium costs, doing the "support your local musician" thing here in Va Beach. My band (the Moaning Lisas) recorded three songs at a friends home in Ghent, with a Fostex VF16, I think it was. I liked the sound, but it lacked alot of features I don't think I could live without. I also like the ability to transfer track data to a computer (though scared of what I might do with that!!! Ha Ha!). I have several compressors, effects processors, mic pre's, etc. I've been using Soundforge, and happy with what it does....so far.

I'm the guy who waited forever before finally swapping from vinyl to CD......so that should explain my mindset some. I will forever be linked to the analog world, but think it's time to join the 21st century and trade up.

[gtrmac]

There are some cool self contained units like the Yamaha 4416 and the Roland VS series. These are very plug and play deals. Well, you might have to at least read a manual to be honest but it would certainly be easier than the DIY DAW scene that I'm into. Don't get me wrong I love the completely open-ended nature of the beast but it isn't for the faint-hearted. A Macintosh based DAW could be an option too, a lot less messy probably. There are many good software products such as Cubase, Logic, Nuendo, Digi Performer etc. I'm using Cubase and Nuendo and like them both.

 

------------------

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

My Music: www.javamusic.com/freedomland

[Jason Poff]

For the money you're talking, I'd go with the Yamaha aw4416. Check it out at www.AW4416.com. 16 tracks, uncompressed, fully automated board, 44 tracks at mixdown. For the money it's tough to beat. Roland also has a new beast out that's 24 tracks, but it doesn't compete sonically. If you want 16 tracks of great sound quality, get the yamaha. If you need more tracks get two yamahas. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif If you need more tracks at the expense of sound quality, get the roland.

 

Jason

[Hippie]

Its too bad the bottom fell out of Alesis, their new 24 track H/D recorder was looking like a real winner for 2 grand. I was almost ready to jump before the news hit.

[Odo-Riffus]

Paris gets my vote as well. From an audio stand point it is really hard to beat. I am not aware of any reliabilty problems with Paris when it was made by ensoniq. Now that its made and distributed by EMU it is not only just as reliable but is getting the support it needed.

 

Odo-Riffus

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by Jason Poff:

For the money you're talking, I'd go with the Yamaha aw4416. Check it out at www.AW4416.com. 16 tracks, uncompressed, fully automated board, 44 tracks at mixdown. For the money it's tough to beat. Roland also has a new beast out that's 24 tracks, but it doesn't compete sonically. If you want 16 tracks of great sound quality, get the yamaha. If you need more tracks get two yamahas. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif If you need more tracks at the expense of sound quality, get the roland.

 

Jason

 

 

LOL! Actually, that's exactly what I did - I got TWO AW4416's. Each one has two of the Yamaha MY8-AT ADAT lightpipe cards, which are connected to either my two 20 bit ADAT machines (rarely - for the rare instances when I have to grab something off a client's tapes) or to my Frontier Designs Dakota and Montana cards. These cards have been great! (Thanks again to Craig for the tip!) They have a total of 32 channels of lightpipe I/O, which allows me to transfer in all 32 tracks from the AW4416's in a single pass. Once they're in the computer, I use Logic Audio Platinum 4.7 and / or Vegas Audio 2.0 to do any editing I want to do. At that point, I can either fly the tracks back into the AW's hard disks OR I can call up new virtual tracks on the AW's, record up to 32 more tracks on them while the computer plays back the original 32 into the MIXER sections of the AW's.

 

The Aw4416 has a 44 input mixer - 16 channels are dedicated to the hard disk playback tracks, two stereo inputs are dedicated to the onboard effects as effects returns, while the final 24 can be from the 8 analog inputs, the S/PDIF input, or from any inputs from any card installed in either of the two option card slots. Available card options include a 4 channel 24 bit line level A/D (XLR), a 8 channel TDIF digital I/O, the aforementioned 8 channel 24 bit lightpipe I/O, 8 channel 20 bit line level A/D (TRS), AES 8 channel (?) I/O, and 4 channel D/A (outputs - XLR) card. With two of these last cards, plus the 4 onboard "Omni" outputs (freely assignable for effects / aux sends, direct outputs, whatever...) you'd have 12 analog outputs.

 

OTOH, a better option might be to get two of the MY8-AT cards (and a 16 channel lightpipe card like a RME Hammerfall or Frontier Designs Dakota for your computer) and get a couple of outboard ADAT lightpipe in to analog output boxes. Frontier also makes just such a box (the Tango) and so does Alesis (The AI-3). Other companies also make these as well. This would give you both options - easy connection to your computer for flying tracks in and out for editing as well as the ability to send out analog by just repatching the ADAT Lightpipe cables into the Tangos, AI-3's or whatever. There ya go - 16 channels of analog outputs whenever you need it.

 

I have to agree with Jason's suggestions here... the AW is a powerhouse in terms of sound quality and mixing features, but as you suspected Gene, the onboard editing isn't the strong suit of ANY stand alone mixer / recorder. But to be fair, the Roland is probably better in this respect than the AW4416. The learning curve on either one is going to be a bit steep at first, but it should be doable since you already have a basic idea of signal routing concepts from the analog 8 track setup. And there's great user's groups for both platforms to help you get through the tough times. Roland has the VSPlanet / Big List, and then there's the AW group over at:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AW4416/

 

Feel free to drop in any time and visit us, and don't hesitate to ask the users for their impressions and opinions.

 

One final note: Yamaha has just announced a scaled down AW - the AW2816. More details are availible at http://www.aw2816.com. Track wise it is the same as the 4416, but has fewer mixer channels and only handles one option card.

 

Best of luck with your decisions and your new setup!

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:

One final note: Yamaha has just announced a scaled down AW - the AW2816. More details are availible at http://www.aw2816.com. Track wise it is the same as the 4416, but has fewer mixer channels and only handles one option card.

 

Have you heard how much it's going to list for?

 

I've been contemplating selling my VS-880 for something that can record more tracks at once, which I desperately need....

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Philip OKeefe]

Sorry Chip, I've called Yamaha USA on that and they have not released that info yet... but one of our group members in Europe reported it at about $2,200 USA (average sales price). Don't know how accurate that is...

 

BTW, it will only record 8 tracks at a time (unlike the AW4416 which can do 16 at once). If that's better than your current Roland (don't most of the '880's only do 4 at a time?) it might e a good tool for you.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions I can try to answer.

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

[dterrykeyofd.net]

Originally posted by botch@netutah.net:

Question for Dedric: my local music store stopped carrying Ensoniq products many years ago because of very poor reliability. The Paris system is now made by Emu/Ensoniq, I was wondering if your Paris exhibits Ensoniq-like reliability or good Emu reliability?

 

IMHO, Paris' development (not marketing) is one of the very highest points of Ensoniq's lifespan. It now has the benefit of being further developed and supported by Emu, and seems to me to be better suited for Emu's product line and technology than it ever was with Ensoniq (yes, it is very reliable - I make my living with it as a producer, and now also sell Paris systems as a VAR/consultant because of the value I see in it for many levels of studio, production and recording work). Retailers were probably spooked by Ensoniq's business problems near the end. Not to worry now though. Many more good things are in store for Paris with Emu at the helm.

 

Regards,

Dedric

[DC]

Hi Gene,

 

I think I'm in a similar boat to you as I was the last one on the block to go with CDs and used reel to reel forever. My first foray into digital was ADAT & Mackie mixer but now I've settled on Cakewalk and a pretty fast computer (Cele 900). I had a Roland VS for around a week and sent it back because quite frankly, the OS made my brain hurt. I've read the Yammys are great mixer wise, but even simple edits are a pain (I'm talking stand alone, not like Phil is using them).

 

At any rate, you should really check Cakewalk and a sound card that meets your needs. I just track one part at a time so the DAL Card Deluxe is perfect for me with extreme quality balanced stereo in and out and S/PDIF. I've also got a lightpipe card if I need to track a bunch of sources at once. I just think you could get excellant results for loads less cash outlay going this route. I'm perfectly happy with Cake 9.03 and some plugs. Very easy to learn compared to the stand alone systems I've checked, and very stable.

[strat0124]

Hey guys thanks for all the replies.....cool to have so many options....and folks with their fingers on the units in question....I'll follow up once I've purchased. Thanks again.

Gene

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:

BTW, it will only record 8 tracks at a time (unlike the AW4416 which can do 16 at once). If that's better than your current Roland (don't most of the '880's only do 4 at a time?) it might e a good tool for you.

 

Yeah, the 880 only does 4.

 

In a far distant corner of my mind I'm considering the option of either selling it and trying to scrimp and save to get something like that, or keep it and maybe try to find another used (which will probably be cheaper).

 

The downside to that plan is that it locks me into the 880 sound, which could be better.

 

It also means Eternal Archiving 2 tracks at a time (SP/DID). The Yamaha will let you offload all the tracks at once, won't it?

 

I wish Roland or Yamaha would just make a raw recorder, no frills - just clean line ins>converters>hard drive... I don't care about effects, automated mixing, panning, etc... Cheap. Seems like they could strip the front end off the 2216 and do it much cheaper' subtract the cost of the multieffects, subtract big display, subtract pan pots, paders, automation, etc...

 

Oh well. After spending the day at the garage with my car being repaired, it's all pretty academic at this point.

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

Yeah, the 880 only does 4.

 

 

That's what I thought.

 

 

In a far distant corner of my mind I'm considering the option of either selling it and trying to scrimp and save to get something like that, or keep it and maybe try to find another used (which will probably be cheaper).

 

 

You're probably right, it would be cheaper, and you could probably sync them with MTC.

 

 

The downside to that plan is that it locks me into the 880 sound, which could be better.

 

 

No offense to any VS880 owners, but I would have to agree. I'm not a big fan of data reduction algorythms, and while the converters and preamps in the latest VS seem to be significantly improved, they were not as good on the earlier units.

 

It also means Eternal Archiving 2 tracks at a time (SP/DID). The Yamaha will let you offload all the tracks at once, won't it?

 

The AW4416 can handle two option cards, so if you get the MY8-AT lightpipe cards like I did, you can transfer out 16 tracks digitally in a single pass without any problems. The new AW2816 only has one option card slot, so in order to transfer 16 tracks, you'd have to make two passes. And again, the AW2816 can only track up to 8 tracks at a time, while the AW4416 can track all 16 at once. This might be an issue if you want to try to get the info back into the AW at some point... with the 4416 you can do it in one pass, while the 2816 would again require two.

 

 

I wish Roland or Yamaha would just make a raw recorder, no frills - just clean line ins>converters>hard drive... I don't care about effects, automated mixing, panning, etc... Cheap. Seems like they could strip the front end off the 2216 and do it much cheaper' subtract the cost of the multieffects, subtract big display, subtract pan pots, paders, automation, etc...

 

 

Funny you should mention that - I suggested EXACLY this to Yamaha back in October 2000 when I got my first AW. Since the 4416 has a 44 channel mixer (and up to 16 channels of digital I/O on option cards) such a device would allow AW owners to easily go from 16 to 32 tracks at a reasonable cost. Optimally, the recorder would be exactly as you described, with 16 channels of lightpipe (or whatever digital format) I/O. Heck, they could even set it up to accept two of the current option cards to allow maximum flexibility for I/O options. Add MTC / MMC capability, a CD-RW drive for OS upgrades and file backup and make the file format compatible with the AW's and you'd have a winning product. They may still decide to make such a device, but I'm not holding my breath. It would be nice though

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

 

 

 

[/b]

[not coaster MODERATOR]

Boy the web is slow this morning!

 

I'm going to buy something by August 1. I've been researching for 6 months and have to agree the Yamahas have overtaken the standalone market. I currently have older VS model. In looking at smart economics, the stbreleased 2816 Yamaha coupled with the stbreleased WAVES card looks good. The waves card will supply outstanding track and mixdown compression, volume maximizer and primo reverb. Apparently the ada on Yamaha are superb. And CD burner is included. Price guess? Whole package for 3 grand. You still have some dough left for a Joe Meek Mic Pre and Rode NTK.

 

Or else I'm gonna pull the trigger on MAC/MOTU rig pending MWNY. Have fun.

[take5]

A year and a half ago after 6 months of reading I bought a VS 1680...if it was today I would seriously look at the new Yamaha 16 track. I am very happy with the VS 1680 but it seems that every 6 to 8 months there is something new and improved to consider. You just make your choice, spend some serious cash, and record some great music. I like the portabilty of a Roland or Yamaha versus a Mac computer system. You will definately need a good tube pre amp with any hard disk recording system. One piece of gear that made a HUGE difference in the final CD's I produce is an Alesis Masterlink. Two channel stereo mix on the VS 1680...digital out into the Masterlink...put the stereo signal through the Masterlink DSP...burn your CD...you will be amazed at what you hear! Very simple, very neat & tidy process.

[Sergievsky]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

I wish Roland or Yamaha would just make a raw recorder, no frills - just clean line ins>converters>hard drive... I don't care about effects, automated mixing, panning, etc... Cheap. Seems like they could strip the front end off the 2216 and do it much cheaper' subtract the cost of the multieffects, subtract big display, subtract pan pots, paders, automation, etc...

 

Yamaha DID make this unit...forgot the name, but it was an 8track per unit thing with a built in MO drive. It looked pretty awesome when I saw it in Japan, and it did come out in the US after a while. I would have bought it if they would have come out with it sooner. But the 24track hard disk units already were starting to come out, which is probably the reason it didn't take off. i wonder if there are any out there being blown out by GC or some other store.

 

Raul

[blas]

Gene, The idea of a 1680/1880 wouldn't hurt you. Very portable, not too tough to learn (buy the video to speed things along, avoid the manuals as they leave a lot to be desired). You can get very nice tracks with the right: micing, mic's, preamp,using the digital input ports).

I was a analog guy for over 25 years and enjoy that unit for the money.

Of course, the marketplace has a new unit about every 6 weeks now......so you can always sit back a few months and get more bang for the buck!

Good luck, and remember no matter what you decide to get, you'll always find something slicker and quicker within days of the purchase - 'dats just the business we're in!!!!!!!!!!